dg28daman Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Not getting why people are mad about this trade. We got two players who WILL contribute here for a guy who wasn't and a pick that was going to end up being a D-Leaguer at best. We know have depth and size. It's easy to find SGs and SFs. Hell, for years it seemed like thats all we had. But we now have three talented true big men. This is a good move all around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 If we're going to overpay, at least overpay for some pieces that ****ing fit. This is what I wish people would get. If this trade is made for... let's say Ben Gordon then I'd be ok with it. Because this team needs offense and can't afford to bring in players which are completely worthless on the offensive end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 You all realize that Dwight Howard is going to be a free agent next summer. Meaning that good teams will be wanting to clear cap room to make a run at the most dominant big in the game next season. Meaning that Rashard Lewis's expiring deal was the single most valuable tool for doing so in the entire damn league? The opportunity cost of giving away his deal for crap is what kills me. ---------- Post added June-20th-2012 at 10:40 PM ---------- You know what's really going to kill me? If New Orleans goes on to flip Shard's contract for something like Pau Gasol at the deadline... ---------- Post added June-20th-2012 at 10:46 PM ---------- Who here would trade situations with Minnesota? *raises hand* Who here would trade situations with New Orleans? *raises hand again* Fans of those teams can thank Ernie. I feel like they should add him to their Christmas card list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins199021 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 FAs that are good aren't going to come to this team at the moment. Now we can get rid of an even worse contract and amnesty blatche. I also think this move definitely mean we pick Barnes or Beal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Not getting why people are mad about this trade. We got two players who WILL contribute here for a guy who wasn't and a pick that was going to end up being a D-Leaguer at best. We know have depth and size. It's easy to find SGs and SFs. Hell, for years it seemed like thats all we had. But we now have three talented true big men. This is a good move all around Best case scenario is sneaking into the playoffs and getting blown out while being unable to improve our team because of our cap situation and ending up with a bad draft pick. This trade makes the wizards mediocre and locks us there. Beal better turn out to be DWade or the two years of Ernie and Wittman are going to be worse than I thought, instead of simply being bad they are going to do far reaching damage. ---------- Post added June-20th-2012 at 11:21 PM ---------- FAs that are good aren't going to come to this team at the moment. Now we can get rid of an even worse contract and amnesty blatche.I also think this move definitely mean we pick Barnes or Beal It means Beal IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Wittman's extension looks worse after this deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper 21 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Love this trade I think it means beal for sure Wall Beal Ariza Emeka Nene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Looks like the goal is to build a defensive team that can suffocate opposing offenses, and have a roster with depth that can survive the rigors of an 82 game season. I also think EG is placing a lot of hope on Wall blossoming into a star. If he lives up to his potential he automatically makes everyone around him better, so an average offense with what should be a good D probably gets you a decent playoff seeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Wittman's extension looks worse after this deal. After the 2013-2014 season the following are not under contract: Grunfeld Wittman Wall Ariza Booker Crawford Okafor Seraphin We are locked into this ride. Buckle up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skin'emAlive Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I cant believe we just gave away the best ammo in the league for nothing. Those two players add nothing to this team. I would be frustrated if i didnt expect them to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I cant believe we just gave away the best ammo in the league for nothing. Those two players add nothing to this team. I would be frustrated if i didnt expect them to do this. I wouldn't say they add nothing. Okafor is a decent C with experience and is a good presence in the locker room. Ariza has been in big games and is a good role player for the young guys as well. I think after last year's toxic and immature locker room the FO and coaches badly want to create a more positive atmosphere for the young players to develop in. They also want more vets to balance it out as you really can't have a team of all 20-22 year olds or you end up with the early 2000s Bulls/Clippers or mid 2000s Celtics. I agree that this trade doesn't solve our shooting woes, but there is still the draft and FA for that. And I think people are overrating raw cap space. Unless you're a team like the Lakers, you're not gunna be landing big name FAs with raw cap space. How often do these golden expirings really work out for teams? Look at the mess the Nets are in because they tried to go all in on Williams/Howard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Assuming the trade goes through, here is the Wizards' salary data for next season:Emeka Okafor: $13.5 million Nene: $13 million Trevor Ariza: $7.3 million Andray Blatche*: $7.2 million John Wall: $5.9 million No. 3 pick**: $4.1 million Jan Vesely: $3.2 million Kevin Seraphin: $1.8 million Chris Singleton: $1.6 million Trevor Booker: $1.4 million Jordan Crawford: $1.2 million Shelvin Mack: $762,000 No. 32 pick**: 762,000 *=Likely Amnesty candidate. **=Equal to the slotted first-year salary of the 2011 No. 3 and No. 32 picks. Those numbers are expected to stay the same this year. TOTAL: $61.72 million TOTAL WITHOUT BLATCHE: $54.52 million. NOTE: This does not include any cap holds for existing free agents James Singleton, Cartier Martin, Brian Cook or Morris Almond. This means that the Wizards will not likely be a big free-agent player this summer, even if Blatche is released via the Amnesty clause. The salary cap will be set at $58 million, so that should eliminate all high-level and even mid-level free-agent prospects. The most the Wizards could do is sign someone for potentially half of the value of a mid-level exception. The more interesting scenario is next summer. Here's the Wizards' situation then, assuming Blatche is let go: Emeka Okafor: $14.5 million* Nene: $13 million Trevor Ariza: $7.7 million** John Wall: $7.5 million*** 2012 No. 3 draft pick: $4.3 million Jan Vesely: $3.3 million Kevin Seraphin: $2.8 milllion*** Trevor Booker: $2.35 million*** Jordan Crawford: $2.2 million*** Chris Singleton: $1.7 million 2012 No. 32 draft pick: $762,000 2013 first-round pick: ???? 2013 second-round pick: ??? *=Can exercise an early-termination option and become a free agent; this is what he's owed if he doesn't. **=Can exercise a player option and become a free agent; this is what he's owed if he doesn't. ***=Eligible for a contract extension, but it would not kick in until the following year. NOTE: Does not include any cap holds. TOTAL: $60.11 million, not including draft picks. That means that, barring bounce-back seasons from Ariza and/or Okafor that cause them to opt out of their current deals, the Wizards probably won't be a free-agent player in 2013 either. Essentially, they've decided that Nene, Ariza and Okafor are their free-agent acquisitions for the next two years, with Nene also being one for the two years after that. This also means that the Wizards will not be able to execute unbalanced trades with the salary cap, which could be even more valuable that using the space to sign free agents in the coming years, with many teams likely to shed long deals to get under the luxury tax before harsher penalties kick in after the 2012-13 season. http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/6/20/3101901/wizards-hornets-trade-emeka-okafor-trevor-ariza-salary-cap ---------- Post added June-21st-2012 at 12:25 AM ---------- I agree that this trade doesn't solve our shooting woes, but there is still the draft and FA for that. And I think people are overrating raw cap space. Unless you're a team like the Lakers, you're not gunna be landing big name FAs with raw cap space. How often do these golden expirings really work out for teams? Look at the mess the Nets are in because they tried to go all in on Williams/Howard. 1- not much room to do anything in free agency (see above) 2- past cap space situations didn't happen with the new luxury tax looming. Teams are scrambling to avoid it. 3- Nets were screwed by their primary trade asset braking his foot. Their chances of getting Howard all but vanished the second that happened. Howard wasn't a free agent, if he was he'd likely be a Net right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DallasBlowsBig Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Well which wonderful FAs did we want to get in the first place? Kevin Garnet lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Well which wonderful FAs did we want to get in the first place? Kevin Garnet lol Ilyasova would've been a much better fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsiaticSkinsFan Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Well which wonderful FAs did we want to get in the first place? Kevin Garnet lol I wanted Batum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 After the 2013-2014 season the following are not under contract:Grunfeld Wittman Wall Ariza Booker Crawford Okafor Seraphin We are locked into this ride. Buckle up. Wonderful. Does anyone think that's actually going to work? Nene, Beal, Vesely, and pray John takes the rookie max extension because he has't figured out yet that he's wasting his career here... Then maybe we can start from square one everywhere else. Why are we putting this off two years with lousy veteran stop gaps? Why were Ernie and Wittman extended again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skin'emAlive Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) I think it was more about hoping that Wall has a breakout season next year and that breakout enticing free agents next year. Then we would have the cap space to attract those FA here. Now we are stuck with 2 more guys who cant help with the future of this team, nor the biggest deficiency... the offense. John Wall will not resign here if next year is another circus. I can guarantee that. Edited June 21, 2012 by Skin'emAlive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I wouldn't say they add nothing. Okafor is a decent C with experience and is a good presence in the locker room. Ariza has been in big games and is a good role player for the young guys as well. They are actually worse than nothing. They are negative value for the team because of their salary--hence why New Orleans couldn't wait to get rid of them.Ariza is a seven million a year perimeter defender who is horrible offensively. That's terrible. Okafor is a 14 million a year injury prone backup center. Let me repeat that. We're now paying 14 million a year for a backup center. That's completely absurd. I think after last year's toxic and immature locker room the FO and coaches badly want to create a more positive atmosphere for the young players to develop in. They also want more vets to balance it out as you really can't have a team of all 20-22 year olds or you end up with the early 2000s Bulls/Clippers or mid 2000s Celtics. We'd already done this last year with the Nene trade. Could have finished the job by simply amnesty clausing Blatche. There are far cheaper and less restrictive options for adding veteran presences to the locker room than going out and trading for two of the most overpaid contracts in the league--contracts another team couldn't wait to get rid of. Hell, just extend Cartier Martin and James Singleton.I agree that this trade doesn't solve our shooting woes, but there is still the draft and FA for that. And I think people are overrating raw cap space. Unless you're a team like the Lakers, you're not gunna be landing big name FAs with raw cap space. How often do these golden expirings really work out for teams? Look at the mess the Nets are in because they tried to go all in on Williams/Howard. We will not solve our immediate shooting problems in the draft. By and large, rookies can't shoot. We can get pieces that might be good shooters down the line but in the short term, our only hope was to go through FA to get shooters. We can't afford to get anyone in FA now this year or next without first amnestying Blatche. And amnestying Blatche is a move we should think long and hard about now, because we may very well have to amnesty Nene instead. We aren't going to chase big time FAs any time soon. But now we can't even chase mid level or lower FAs because we essentially luxury taxed ourselves with the Nene and Okafor/Ariza deals. FA is no longer a team building option for us this and next offseason. How do we fix our shooting problems in that time frame? Jan Vesely and John Wall learn to shoot? A 19 year old rookie comes in and takes over early? Some second rounders do it? ---------- Post added June-21st-2012 at 03:12 AM ---------- Ilyasova would've been a much better fit. Agreed. I'd rather pay him 40 million over the next two seasons than Okafor and Ariza. Aside from him, I'd have loved to have gone out and put a reasonable offer in for Gerald Green, Willie Green, Patrick Mills, or even Brandon Rush. A shooter. Does anyone else get the sense that Ted doesn't really give a crap about the Wizards and only pays the franchise half a mind when the Caps aren't keeping him busy? How else can Ernie's extension be explained? How else can extending Wittman without even conducting a search be explained? "Oh ****, I didn't even realize they were bad..." ---------- Post added June-21st-2012 at 03:23 AM ---------- "Rashard unfortunately was injured while he was with us, and he didn't get an opportunity to show the kinds of things he was capable of doing. ... He had a very hefty buyout in his contract, and we elected to add a couple of players to the roster by using his contract."Grunfeld said the Wizards would have had to pay a $13.7 million buyout. Grunfeld said the deal won't have any effect on the team's draft plans."We felt like we needed to add some veterans to the roster, and we were able to do that with this move. ... We get players that are good solid players and fill two needs for us," he said. "Instead of going into free agency to try to fill our needs, we did it through a trade." Uh oh. I have a bad feeling about both of those little statements. So being too cheap to pay the buyout might have been a factor--although avoiding a buyout to take on two longer contracts for just as much money per year doesn't make sense as a cost saving measure over the next two years. There was a third and fourth option of course--trade the contract for something to benefit the offense or just let the damn thing expire for us. And the "it doesn't affect our plans in the draft statement" is troubling. How are people going to feel about this deal when we come away with MKG, Andre Drummond, or Thomas Robinson on draft night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skin'emAlive Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Gerald Green would have been a great addition to this team for sure. So, let me get this straight: Our best shooter currently on this team is Jordan Crawford? Is that right? Am i missing someone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsiaticSkinsFan Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 We cannot amnesty Nene, per new CBA rules. It will still be Blatche. And I really wanted Batum, but the slim chances of that happening are now extinguished Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I read a nice breakdown for why we didn't buy out Shard's contract and decided to trade it for two rotation players instead of either buying him out, amnestying him, or letting his deal expire. The trade makes a bit more sense financially when you understand a few things: 1.) Management wanted to get rid of Shard this offseason one way or another. I don't necessarily agree with that imperative, just know that it was an imperative that established the conditions of the trade for us. The team wanted to add vet rotation players and did not see Shard as a vet rotation player. 2.) Since we can't keep Shard to let his deal expire (see 1), our only options for getting rid of him were: 2a.) Amnestying Shard was almost certainly never seriously considered because the FO intends to use the amnesty clause on Blatche. 2b.) Buying out Shard's deal was expensive and put an expensive cap hold of 13.6 million for a guy who was no longer even a player on the team. Depending on whose analysis and numbers you trust, this cap hold may have still put us over the cap this summer, taking serious FA off the table this summer anyway.* 2c.) With amnesty off the table, trading Shard then became the only way to get rid of him this offseason while keeping one or more rotational players around at roughly his cap hold. 3.) Ted might very well be more interested in making the playoffs than aiming for the higher goal of building a sustainable contender like the Thunder or Bulls did. He's OK with us pulling a win now move that sacrifices flexibility to field a team with more rotational players to try and make a run at the playoffs with this group he's assembled today. He's taking his shot now. The goal is pretty low if you ask me. But I also understand that fan expectations and interest are very low at this point and he might simply be desperate to stave off fan apathy. *Here's a concise breakdown from real GM of our cap situation to explain how buying out Shard's deal put us over the cap: The gist of it: -- 10 players under contract excluding Shard, salary totaling roughly 39 million (this figure includes the 3rd overall pick). This leaves us roughly 19 million in cap space if the cap number is the same as last year's. -- add two minimum salary holds to get the roster to the minimum of 12 contracts (~2 million) -- add a hold for the MLE (~5 million) So that guy estimates we'd actually only have ~12 million in cap space, which would subsequently be wiped out by Shard's 13.6 million dollar buyout. His numbers are funny. First off, I'm not sure why he put the MLE, minimum salary, and rookie salary exceptions into our cap figure. They are exceptions. They are for going over the cap. If you take that out of his calculations since they're all cap exceptions, you save 9-11 million dollars depending on some of the numbers. That means post buyout, we'd have probably had at least 8 million to spend before we hit the cap and became eligible for those exceptions. What that means to me is that Ted/Ernie felt we couldn't spend enough to get to the cap following a Shard buyout, so that we couldn't have triggered all of those exceptions. OR, they were attempting to avoid paying luxury tax derived from a Shard buyout for whatever reason. OR it means to me that Ted/Ernie were uncomfortable pursuing free agents at all. They didn't like the money they might have to commit to the type of free agent they felt they could actually sign because of the years of the contract they might have to offer. I think this last bit was a huge part of the decision. It feels like they will no longer take on any deal aside from rookie contracts that will extend into the summer of 2014--When Wall, Seraphin, Crawford, and Booker are free agents. That could probably be a smart rule. There is every chance they're going to have to max out Wall that summer. But it could also be needlessly conservative and restrictive. We could very well afford/find valuable mid and lower level free agents for short term deals. Particularly if we're looking for shooters. Veteran shooters are pretty abundant relative to other types of role players, and that means you can find some for pretty cheap. If you accept that buying out Shard or keeping him for his deal expire made meaningful FA an impossibility for us this summer, then it's whatever on this deal. We turned one non rotational player into two rotational players. The problem is the deal also tanks our financial flexibility next summer too, whereas we'd have been completely off the hook for once and for all if we either bought out Shard or kept him. That's why this is a win now move. The fact that those were not the options we chose indicates to me the FO had no interest in pursuing FAs next summer either. Again, this comes back to what I believe is the FO's desire to not take on any more deals aside from rookie contracts that extend into/past the summer of 2014. Essentially, they're gambling that the Seraphin/Booker/Wall/Crawford core is worth clearing space for to keep intact, & that it's going to take a lot of space to keep intact... It's not a terrible gamble because Wall and Seraphin seem to be working out and if they keep progressing, they will command interest as RFAs. But then you stop and think about it... what have any of these guys shown to make true believers out of anyone--that they have the ability to contend for championships? Then you realize that the real goal/expectation might be simply to contend for the playoffs and not really for championships and then everything starts to make sense. One of the downsides to this trade is that it puts two more players into our rotation who, to quote that real GM article, do not provide "surplus value under their contracts." That's putting it mildly. That author lists opening up minutes for young players like Anthony Davis as one of the major positives of the trade for New Orleans but makes no acknowledgement of that same value for our own franchise. I really, really hope Okafor doesn't get in the way of Seraphin and Booker. Especially Seraphin. Ditto for Ariza and Vesely to a lesser extent. Seraphin's time is now though. He's demonstrated he's ready for big minutes. ---------- Post added June-21st-2012 at 04:54 AM ---------- We cannot amnesty Nene, per new CBA rules.It will still be Blatche. And I really wanted Batum, but the slim chances of that happening are now extinguished Are you sure about that? Nene was under contract for us last season, I thought anyone under contract for us last season was eligible. ---------- Post added June-21st-2012 at 04:59 AM ---------- Basically, this Shard trade for me boils down to the Wizards taking the expedient way out yet again. "We don't feel like having to deal with free agency so we'll take a losing deal just to turn one contract into two rotation players so long as their deals come off by 2014." It feels like the exact same reasoning behind giving EG a contract extension until 2014 rather than conducting a real search for a long term GM commitment. And it feels like the exact same reasoning behind extending Wittman to 2014 with no coaching search. We're punting the next two years of development to try and see if we can maybe make the playoffs as a low seed with this current group. 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Going Commando Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Did you all know Jan Vesely converted on all of his dunks last year? 63 for 63. That's a nifty little factoid. Also shot .507 on layups and .563 on tip shots. Dude is actually a pretty good finisher at the rim. Apparently he's good at drawing contact and getting to the line while he does it too. Surprising he'd convert at such a high rate given how skinny he is. Too bad he can't shoot free throws. If he ever learned to shoot he'd be a special starting SF. I'm parsing through the shot finder to see what kind of shots we're actually good at. Nene is our most effective jump shooter by far, but also had one of the lowest sample sizes for this category on the team. Emeka Okafor actually converted his jumpers at a terrific rate last season. Also, not a ton of attempts here, but he's shown an ability to knock them down from close to mid range. Those two are actually our most efficient shooters by far, the only two who shot over .400 on jumpers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 You all realize that Dwight Howard is going to be a free agent next summer.Meaning that good teams will be wanting to clear cap room to make a run at the most dominant big in the game next season. Meaning that Rashard Lewis's expiring deal was the single most valuable tool for doing so in the entire damn league? The opportunity cost of giving away his deal for crap is what kills me. Dwight Howard will never come to DC. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Dwight Howard will never come to DC. Ever. Did you actually read what he posted or just saw 'Dwight Howard' and assumed that he's saying DH12 should sign with the Wizards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Dwight Howard will never come to DC. Ever. Read the post over again. Good teams would actually be looking to clear cap space by trading for Shard's deal--meaning they'd have something of reasonable quality they're trying to get rid of in return for Shard's expiring contract. I did not say the Wizards would make a run at Howard themselves. I said Shard's deal is much more valuable than what we got in return for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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