The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

 

[CRobi21]

I knew Dinwiddie reminded me of someone..

 

[method man]

2 hours ago, Hersh said:

The trade for Aaron Holiday was a terrible trade. The guy is a restricted FA after this season. It would have served the team better long term to either draft a PG at 22 and have that player under control for a lot longer, draft Todd if he was the target all along or trade back a few slots and add draft assets. Ultimately, Todd could sign a short contract which would make him an UFA early and this team can't afford to pay Holiday much of anything even if he has a decent season. 

Per P

 

Here is the the number one problem with everything that's been done and the direction the Wiz are going. Straight from the article:

 

Don't print your playoff tickets just yet -- the rest of the East's middle class has also loaded up -- but I like what Washington has done this offseason.

 

 

 

I kind of agree. Butler, McBride and Cooper were all there at #22 but they were also all there at #31. The only player that got taken between #22 and #31 I regret missing out on is Jaden Springer, who showed an NBA ready game for a freshman SG at Tennessee. The issue I had was Tommy should've extracted another future 2nd even if it were in 2025 or something and should've rolled Gill into the deal so that we could've kept Matthews. I think Holiday is going to be a solid addition and I do hate that too that he will be a RFA after this year but if he plays like a solid backup PG, as a RFA, you aren't going to have to overpay to retain him.

 

What Tommy needs to do is give Todd a contract that guarantees him salaries for 2 years and get 2 cheap unguaranteed years on the backend. I hope they can fit it in while being under the luxury tax

[Barry.Randolphe]

Myles Turner for Deni/Kuzma? I'd pull the trigger on this one

 

https://www.inquisitr.com/6494799/nba-rumors-wizards-could-trade-kyle-kuzma-deni-avdija-to-pacers-

 

PG: Dinwiddie, Neto, Holliday

SG: Beal, KCP

SF: Bertans, Kispert, Gill

PF: Rui, Harrell, Todd

C : Turner, Gafford, Bryant

 

That's a solid rotation and the addition of Turner provides a much needed rim protector/defensive presence

Edited August 7, 2021 by Barry.Randolphe

[Destino]

17 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

Myles Turner for Deni/Kuzma? I'd pull the trigger on this one

 

https://www.inquisitr.com/6494799/nba-rumors-wizards-could-trade-kyle-kuzma-deni-avdija-to-pacers-

 

 

Myles turner is hard to figure out.  Why is his production so low?  12 and 6 is mediocre as hell for a guy playing 30 minutes a night and is supposed to be good.  

[Barry.Randolphe]

7 minutes ago, Destino said:

Myles turner is hard to figure out.  Why is his production so low?  12 and 6 is mediocre as hell for a guy playing 30 minutes a night and is supposed to be good.  

 

His rebounds should be higher for sure....but he averaged 3.5 blocks a game. Gobert averaged 2.7 last season. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Barry.Randolphe

[Ball Security]

37 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

Myles Turner for Deni/Kuzma? I'd pull the trigger on this one

 

https://www.inquisitr.com/6494799/nba-rumors-wizards-could-trade-kyle-kuzma-deni-avdija-to-pacers-

 

PG: Dinwiddie, Neto, Holliday

SG: Beal, KCP

SF: Bertans, Kispert, Gill

PF: Rui, Harrell, Todd

C : Turner, Gafford, Bryant

 

That's a solid rotation and the addition of Turner provides a much needed rim protector/defensive presence

I’d prefer to keep Deni.  Could you swap Deni with Bertans or Harrell?

 

Taking back Justin Holiday and sending Harrell makes the contracts close.

 

Turner only has two years on his deal remaining.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Ball Security

[Destino]

2 hours ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

His rebounds should be higher for sure....but he averaged 3.5 blocks a game. Gobert averaged 2.7 last season. 

We have a defensive center though.  Look at this 36 and per 100 comparison with Daniel Gafford last season.

 

I’d just start Gafford and keep excellent depth at SF.  Now if they’d take either Kuzma or Deni and take Bertans/Harrell/Bryant as the second player I think it would make sense.  

I think Gafford is a steal for us.  He can’t shoot threes but he’s an excellent defensive center.  
 

 

 

[bearrock]

I'm not convinced Gafford can sustain that level of performance over high minutes, but I would at least like to find out.  And I don't see a lot of value in acquiring Turner for the Wizards.  He might develop into a borderline 3rd piece on a contender.  He doesn't move the needle for the Wizards other than solidify 6-8th seed.  They're better off sticking with Avidja to see what head coach can do in terms of developing young players.

[Destino]

2 minutes ago, bearrock said:

I'm not convinced Gafford can sustain that level of performance over high minutes, but I would at least like to find out.  And I don't see a lot of value in acquiring Turner for the Wizards.  He might develop into a borderline 3rd piece on a contender.  He doesn't move the needle for the Wizards other than solidify 6-8th seed.  They're better off sticking with Avidja to see what head coach can do in terms of developing young players.

He averaged just under 12 and 6 in his only playoff series, and 2 blocks per game.  That’s basically Myles Turners production right there.  I don’t think he’ll ever be an all star but I think he can be what we were hoping Mahinmi would be.  
 

Ideally we’d have both Turner and Gafford.  I just wouldn’t want to give up both of our well rounded SFs to do it.  I don’t trust Bertans and Kispert to play defense, and I’d prefer KCP to get most his minutes as guard #3.  

 

Not sure how our new coach is going to do it though.  He might start KCP at SF and use Kuzma as Rui’s backup.  

[Mooka]

41 minutes ago, Destino said:

We have a defensive center though.  Look at this 36 and per 100 comparison with Daniel Gafford last season.

 

Gafford is definitely undersized though. There's Montrezl Harrell on the roster who's also undersized and Thomas Bryant doesn't play defense. 

 

Not a huge fan of Myles Turner... he's always jacking up too many three's but I'd mark it as a positive move. 

[Destino]

6 minutes ago, Mooka said:

 

Gafford is definitely undersized though. There's Montrezl Harrell on the roster who's also undersized and Thomas Bryant doesn't play defense. 

 

Not a huge fan of Myles Turner... he's always jacking up too many three's but I'd mark it as a positive move. 

Internet has Gafford listed at 6’10 and Turner at 6’11.  Not sure that means anything though because nba heights are all off.  

[Going Commando]

On 8/5/2021 at 2:39 PM, stevemcqueen1 said:

Wonder if a Myles Turner trade is feasible?  Could rotate him with one of our high efficiency bigs to make up for his offensive inconsistency.  Him + KCP = two high level defenders.  That might be enough if Rui and Deni get better on defense.

 

I asked about this scenario on Thursday because a Myles Turner trade has kind of been our white whale.  This is a legitimately difficult scenario to figure out because Turner is such a flawed prospect.  I absolutely understand why Indy wants to deal him, especially if they could get a pair of forwards like Deni and Kuzma that give you a nice mix of here and now plus long term development upside.  They can't play Turner with Sabonis and Savings is their future and Turner is going to walk for nothing in free agency when his contract is up if they don't deal him.

 

It is a tougher call for us for several reasons:

 

- We don't know what we have in Gafford.

- We have to deal with Bryant's contract

- We have Harrell too, so there is a very minimal immediate need for a C this year, but could be a big need for one next season if Harrell walked.  But having four centers who can't really play together and all requiring big minutes this season is a significant short term problem in the season before Beal's walk year.

 

- We don't know what we have in Deni

- We don't know what we have in Rui

- We don't know what we have in Kispert

- Bertans and his fit are a cipher too

- Kuzma could legitimately be better than all four of them.  Kuzma is not as talented as Rui, but he's smarter, more creative, and more aggressive than Rui IMO.  He's a better PF today than Rui is IMO, and he could be the better long term choice for us if Rui doesn't develop to his potential.

 

- But we're in the same boat with Kuzma next season as Indy is with Turner.  He's not going to sign an extension to be a sixth or seventh man here.  He will hunt a starting job when he hits free agency.  We have to make a decision to commit to either Rui or Kuzma long term and we need to deal the other one now, before their value drops.  We probably stick with Rui, but it will suck if Kuzma ends up being a better player on a better team in Indy.

 

That scenario of trading Deni with Kuzma is painful.  We're swapping depth problems with Indy and getting the most established player in the deal, but we're giving up our best long term prospect and they aren't giving up any.  That feels too rich for us.  They need to either include a prospect and probably take back additional money in the trade, or it needs to be someone other than Deni.

 

Speaking of Deni, he's the highest upside prospect in our organization, but he's also going to be the hardest to develop.  Rui has a defined role and won't get lost in the mix with Beal and Dinwiddie dominating the offense.  And Kispert is the easiest one to find minutes for since he's a professional shooter.  Deni's got the best dribble--pass--shoot skills of the group, but how do you get him usage and minutes?

 

After thinking about it, if Indy sweetens their end a little bit I would probably take that deal.  But yeah, the best scenario would be finding a way to send out Bertans instead of Deni, which would require them adding salary to match Kuzma's since Bertans for Turner is a match in and of itself.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Going Commando]

I'm looking at Indy's salary cap table and they are currently over the luxury tax line.  They don't have any ability to take on extra money in a trade.  That takes away one avenue of sweeteners to make it easier for us to say yes to that trade structure.  Also, their best young prospect is Goga Bitadze, and they can't deal both him and Turner without submarining their big man depth around Sabonis.   The only other warm body at PF/C they would have is the kid they drafted from Kentucky.  They'd probably be forced into running small ball units with Kuzma at the 5.  They're not going to trade Chris Duarte either.  So the only kind of prospect they can include to sweeten their offer is a first round pick.

 

Trading our first round pick is tricky.  But if we can find a way to do it, I say yes to this trade: Kuzma + Bertans + FRP for Turner + TJ Warren.  That gets them two forwards on multi-year deals and a prospect in exchange for Turner and an expiring.  That's a good return for two players who are otherwise gone by the end of '23.

 

I also pull the trigger on Avdija + Kuzma for Turner + FRP with lottery protection.  On Indy's end, they're getting a mid to early lottery prospect a year or two early in return for a pick that's probably going to be in the 20s.  And they swap a bench big whose going to walk in two seasons for a starting PF they might actually keep.

 

The first trade scenario is a no brainer to me.  Bertans is never going to be money well spent for us, not dealing him at that deadline with a huge missed opportunity.  We get out of the mistake of extending him and get back a significant building block in return.  The second one is better for Indy, but it still works for us too I think.

[Going Commando]

Turner is the stylistic opposite of Thomas Bryant.  Lousy offensive player, but potential defensive anchor.  He's not a good shooter but you still have to guard him if he lines up at the three point line because he will take and make them if you leave him open.  He does foul a ton, but that's why you keep Gafford and/or Harrell if you deal for him.  The reason to deal for him is that he has All-NBA defensive team potential.  I read the anonymous coaches survey about the best defenders in the NBA that the Athletic published, and Turner's name made the list, as did KCP's.  Most of the best defensive teams from past few seasons had multiple guys on the list: Milwaukee, Philly, Miami, LA, etc.  If we get multiple All-NBA type defensive players in our rotation, our defense will massively improve.

 

Line up 1: Dinwiddie, Beal, Caldwell-Pope, Kispert/Bertans, Turner/Gafford = excellent spacing, defensive balance, and two high end dribble-drive playmakers.  The only weakness is rebounding.

Line up 2: Dinwiddie/Beal, Holiday, KCP, Kispert/Bertans, Turner/Gafford = same except exchanging more defense for lesser ballhandling

Line up 3: Dinwiddie, Beal, KCP, Harrell, Turner = Better creation, better defense, better rebounding (still not great), and spacing is still good enough.

Line up 4: Dinwiddie/Beal, KCP, Kispert/Bertans, Hachimura, Turner/Gafford = Pretty good defense, strong shot creation, strong spacing, rebounding is still a weakness, but should be better than our small lineups without Hachimura

 

To me that is a quality rotation.  There is not a lot to be done about rebounding and it would be an Achilles heel against certain match ups, but the offense/defense balance would be really good.

[Barry.Randolphe]

25 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

- Kuzma could legitimately be better than all four of them.  Kuzma is not as talented as Rui, but he's smarter, more creative, and more aggressive than Rui IMO.  He's a better PF today than Rui is IMO, and he could be the better long term choice for us if Rui doesn't develop to his potential.

 

Speaking of Deni, he's the highest upside prospect in our organization, but he's also going to be the hardest to develop.  Rui has a defined role and won't get lost in the mix with Beal and Dinwiddie dominating the offense.  And Kispert is the easiest one to find minutes for since he's a professional shooter.  Deni's got the best dribble--pass--shoot skills of the group, but how do you get him usage and minutes?

 

You had me until you got here....Kuzma and 'smart' in the same sentence should never be uttered. He's the new Javale McGee  

 

 

 

and I know I'm the resident Deni hater on this board, so I'll never understand what you guys see in him (I think it's blind hope more than anything since he was a lottery pick and got a lot of hype pre-draft). He's got the right height, but he's extremely soft, small hands, and is a mental midget - you can't fix these things, some players either have it or they don't. He also puts up some major bricks. I'm willing to bet my sig on it that he is relegated to the bench. I think Kispert passes him on the depth chart about midway through the season and then we see Deni get the TBJ treatment until he's traded or goes back to Tel Aviv like Vesely.

 

 

[Destino]

I don’t think you can go into a season with Bertans and Kispert as your SF rotation.  Too many good SFs out there and neither of those guys can guard them.  Deni and Kuzma are better defenders (not good, but better) and better at both passing and dribbling.  Bertans and Kispert are shooting specialists.  
 

You’d end up having Holiday playing big minutes at guard and KCP playing SF, which would reduce the size on the court and weaken the guard rotation.  

Also don’t under value the importance of having three guys that can dribble and pass.  When the playoffs crank up defensive pressure every stiff with no handles you have on the floor makes creating good shots that much harder.  Scott Brooks seemed to take the ball out of Rui’s hands so we don’t really know what he can do, but having an entire front court that can’t create a shot, an assist, or even attack a closeout isn’t good.

 

[method man]

1 hour ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

You had me until you got here....Kuzma and 'smart' in the same sentence should never be uttered. He's the new Javale McGee  

 

 

 

and I know I'm the resident Deni hater on this board, so I'll never understand what you guys see in him (I think it's blind hope more than anything since he was a lottery pick and got a lot of hype pre-draft). He's got the right height, but he's extremely soft, small hands, and is a mental midget - you can't fix these things, some players either have it or they don't. He also puts up some major bricks. I'm willing to bet my sig on it that he is relegated to the bench. I think Kispert passes him on the depth chart about midway through the season and then we see Deni get the TBJ treatment until he's traded or goes back to Tel Aviv like Vesely.

 

 

 

That is a harsh assessment. We need to see how he does playing under Wes Jr. and running the second unit before we can make a more conclusive declaration on him. Under Brooks, he was forced to be a 3 n D wing playing with Westbrook and Beal and we didn't get to see his playmaking. Something he did prove as a rookie is he is a solid defensive wing and understands team defense.

 

At the end of the day, they screwed up not taking Haliburton who I believe most of us wanted. He would've been a great 3rd guard off the bench last season, something we haven't had since the Antonio Daniels days

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

You had me until you got here....Kuzma and 'smart' in the same sentence should never be uttered. He's the new Javale McGee  

 

That video looks like it was made by a salty Lakers fan looking for a scapegoat for their disappointing season.  Bricking some shots and airballing a couple of free throws doesn't make Kuzma a dumb player.  Here is a 24 minute highlight video posted earlier in the thread from his 2021 season that is nothing but fluid catch and shoot game from all over the floor, slick and efficient drives against close outs, and creative passes:

 

 

He is definitely not JaVale.

[Destino]

Wizards fans endured years of Swaggy P and followed it up with Wave Papi.  We even let a moron be head coach.  We know low BBIQ when we see it.  Kuzma and Deni aren’t that.  
 

[Going Commando]

3 hours ago, Destino said:

I don’t think you can go into a season with Bertans and Kispert as your SF rotation.  Too many good SFs out there and neither of those guys can guard them.  Deni and Kuzma are better defenders (not good, but better) and better at both passing and dribbling.  Bertans and Kispert are shooting specialists.  
 

You’d end up having Holiday playing big minutes at guard and KCP playing SF, which would reduce the size on the court and weaken the guard rotation.  

Also don’t under value the importance of having three guys that can dribble and pass.  When the playoffs crank up defensive pressure every stiff with no handles you have on the floor that can’t dribble makes creating good shots that much harder.  Scott Brooks seemed to take the ball out of Rui’s hands so we don’t really know what he can do, but having an entire front court that can’t create a shot, an assist, or even attack a closeout isn’t good.

 

I agree with you on the value of having forward depth.  Especially since the playoffs are a gauntlet through teams with high level forwards.  Going through the list in my head, we'd have to go through some combination of Butler, Tatum/Brown, Durant, Giannis/Middleton, Simmons/Harris, LeBron, Kawhi, George, Doncic, Collins, or Randle to make a playoff run.  Any team that doesn't have one of those guys can't win a title unless they can throw a committee of effective bodies at them.

 

What should we do about Kuzma though?  To me he's fourth in the pecking order, at best.  Rui will start at PF, and Kispert and Avdija are clearly more in our plans than Kuzma.  IMO there is zero chance that Kuzma stays beyond the end of his contract since he'll struggle to get regular minutes here.  So why not trade him when he seems to have value right now?

 

Also, what if Gafford isn't for real?  If he is, then I agree that trading for someone like Myles Turner would be a costly redundancy.  But if Gafford was just a flash in the pan, then there is no chance we make it past a team like Milwaukee or Philly.

8 minutes ago, Destino said:

We even let a moron be head coach.

 

Which time?

 

It will never cease to amaze me that Brooks managed to play PG in the NBA for ten years.

[Destino]

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I agree with you on the value of having forward depth.  Especially since the playoffs are a gauntlet through teams with high level forwards.  Going through the list in my head, we'd have to go through some combination of Butler, Tatum/Brown, Durant, Giannis/Middleton, Simmons/Harris, LeBron, Kawhi, George, Doncic, Collins, or Randle to make a playoff run.  Any team that doesn't have one of those guys can't win a title unless they can throw a committee of effective bodies at them.

 

What should we do about Kuzma though?  To me he's fourth in the pecking order, at best.  Rui will start at PF, and Kispert and Avdija are clearly more in our plans than Kuzma.  IMO there is zero chance that Kuzma stays beyond the end of his contract since he'll struggle to get regular minutes here.  So why not trade him when he seems to have value right now?

 

Also, what if Gafford isn't for real?  If he is, then I agree that trading for someone like Myles Turner would be a costly redundancy.  But if Gafford was just a flash in the pan, then there is no chance we make it past a team like Milwaukee or Philly.

 

start Kuzma at the three and try to raise his value while you figure out what to do going forward.  I’d use him at PF too in spots.  His value is obviously low right now.  He’d get big minutes.  I’d play Deni with the bench because he needs to develop and he’s not going to be dribbling the ball much with our starting guards.
 

I don’t even see Kispert yet because college sharp shooters crash and burn often in the nba.  He’s got to show that he can do it at this level before he becomes a rotation player.  
 

I’d start Gafford.  If he crashes and burns then at least you know that while his contract is cheap. 
 

I don’t know where Harrell fits once Bryant is healthy.  I don’t know where Bertans fits, especially if Kispert really can shoot it.  That said I haven’t seen the offense the new coach wants to run or how serious he is about defense.  Just got to wait and see.

[Ball Security]

I took a look at last year’s minutes.  I combined the three Lakers, Deni, Brad, Gafford, Rui, and Bertans.  Then added 48 minutes for the PG position.  (You could have some minutes, I guess with Deni, Beal, KCP and no point guard.  But you could also have some sets with Neto and Dinwiddie together).  That came out to 262 minutes.  That doesn’t include Kispert, Bryant, and an increase to Gafford’s 17-18 minutes.  
 

Somebody is getting moved.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Ball Security

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