The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[Going Commando]

24 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

You have to accept the fact that we're probably never going to win a championship. I'm happy just making deep playoff runs. Its kinda like being a fan of a really talented Actor, you love watching his movies, but you know he'll never win an Oscar. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy his Blockbuster flicks.

 

A window is going to open up when Golden State's run is over.  A lot can happen between now and then, but right now the Wizards are pretty well positioned to make a run during that window because we've got our three core players locked up long term, and we can lock up Oubre and Sato too.

 

For a while I was thinking that we'd just be going from a Warriors dynasty to a 76ers dynasty, but now I'm not so sure.  The more I watch Embiid play, the more I doubt his ability to play a long career.  So the NBA could open up quite a bit so long as we prevent the kind of star player consolidation that defined this decade.

 

My hope is that the DPVE and the repeater tax keep the likes of Anthony Davis and Giannis and Embiid from ever teaming up.

[Going Commando]

19 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I'm happy he's back, too, but it doesn't look like we're doing the "everybody eats" thing anymore, we're back to the same team we were before he left where pretty much everything has to go through him to get there.  I liked that it looked like he was looking forward to getting Otto more looks and played well with Sato on the floor, but I felt we needed both methods (a hybrid) to beat LeBron, I still feel that way.  That's just a general observation on his first game back, plenty of time to see if they practice more of him off ball and some of things Des pointed as missing that we were doing without him as well.

 

I don't really understand your critique.  John only scored 15 points.  And he wasn't holding the ball.  That was a team win and the offense was very fluid and well paced.  If we could play offense like that consistently, we wouldn't puttering around the 42 win mark.  The proof of how well the offense ran is in the pudding.  We hung 90 on them early in the fourth quarter and Charlotte is a good defensive team who doesn't turn it over and plays at a very slow pace.

[Renegade7]

6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I don't really understand your critique.  John only scored 15 points.  And he wasn't holding the ball.  That was a team win and the offense was very fluid and well paced.  If we could play offense like that consistently, we wouldn't puttering around the 42 win mark.  The proof of how well the offense ran is in the pudding.  We hung 90 on them early in the fourth quarter and Charlotte is a good defensive team who doesn't turn it over and plays at a very slow pace.

They're supposed to beat Charlotte.  I wasn't talking about relying on John for him scoring, I just saw way less secondary, third, and fourth level passes off his initializing of the offense like we were seeing us do out of necessity while he was out. 

 

I'm not seeing the passes to bigs immediately getting redirected like that was the intent all along nearly as much like I used to either, the little things that we were doing while he was out to compensate for the most part are missing, and I think we still need that to get a ring.  We were begging Scott to figure out how to use Wall more off-ball, but now it's like we're back to "if ain't broke, don't fix it". 

 

We've learned nothing if that's the case.  

[Llevron]

Not sure why we would pass out of great looks at the rim or wide open 3's if we have the capability to get them consistently just for the sake of having the ball touch more hands. What you are asking for is less efficiency and a higher rate of failure. The second pass would be from a worse passer, to probably a worse look, and possibly a worse shot. 

 

Previously we needed to pass the ball when Wall was out cause we couldn't get any looks. He gets us the looks and everyone is still eating. Hes just the one feeding him. Not sure how that could be a problem. Especially if its working. 

 

The problem previously with Wall was that he had the ball too long and that caused people to stop moving. If its hot in his hands and going to the open man that solves that problem and we get the looks. No problem there imo. The other was him doing nothing off ball. I still havent seen alot of that. We will see what happens there. He also needs to play better on ball D but again, we will see. 

[Renegade7]

I don't expect us to pass out of open looks anymore then I expect LeBron and the Cavs to let Wall get 14 or more assists a game in a series we don't have home court advantage in

[Llevron]

9 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I don't expect us to pass out of open looks anymore then I expect LeBron and the Cavs to let Wall get 14 or more assists a game in a series we don't have home court advantage in

 

Hes either gonna have to average 14+ assists or 28+ points if we are going to beat them in 7. I dont really think either is likely but I also dont think either is unattainable. 

 

When we get back to our starting 5 all in double figures we will have a good chance to win. Just need defense at that point. Thats our winning recipe. 

[Skin'emAlive]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

I'm happy he's back, too, but it doesn't look like we're doing the "everybody eats" thing anymore, we're back to the same team we were before he left where pretty much everything has to go through him to get there.  I liked that it looked like he was looking forward to getting Otto more looks and played well with Sato on the floor, but I felt we needed both methods (a hybrid) to beat LeBron, I still feel that way.  That's just a general observation on his first game back, plenty of time to see if they practice more of him off ball and some of things Des pointed as missing that we were doing without him as well.

 

Counterpoint: 

 

we werent losing because of this stupid "everybody eats" or doesn't eat crap. Marcin should have been benched and sent home for that anyways.  We were losing because of 2 things:

 

1. Poor backup pg play. This has been fixed with sato's emergence and sessions resigning. Frazier was that bad. 

 

2. Poor late game offensive game plan/management/ and execution by Brad. This has not been fixed. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Skin'emAlive

[Bozo the kKklown]

What would you give up for Kawhi?

 

Otto and Oubre can definitely go, but what if the Spurs ask for Beal or Wall?

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

but right now the Wizards are pretty well positioned to make a run during that window because we've got our three core players locked up long term

stop it slime

 

This core is not a title contender.

 

The Warriors window may close in 2019/2020

 

Wall will be on the wrong side of 30 at that point, with bad knees.

 

Otto has a bad hip. I don't care how much we want to pretend its not an issue, we have seen it affect him this year.

[Llevron]

@BenningRoadSkin I dont think I would move either of those two, especially with the way Kawhi has come back from these most recent injuries. Im not sure I trust him to stay healthy, and if he gets hurt we pretty much lost him for the year. If I didnt have the concern I may entertain the idea of beal. But even then, if you want to grow a fan base and a market, you dont do that by moving your home grown All-Stars. At least I dont think you do. I could be wrong. 

 

Outside of Wall and Beal though anyone can go. 

[Destino]

This roster lacks the talent to win three series in the playoffs without excellently designed offense.  Doesn't matter how good Walls passing is, the bottom line is that NBA teams need to have great isolation scoring or a great team offense.  This team needs to come to terms with the fact that Wall, Beal, and Otto are never going to be great isolation options.  They will not score efficiently enough or avoid turnovers to the degree necessary against defenses that are ready and waiting for them.  

 

... and their defense is worse. 

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Destino

[TradeTheBeal!]

Unless someone makes a quantum leap, the Wall/Beal/Porter core will never be good enough to be a serious title contender.  We all know that in our hearts.

[Llevron]

24 minutes ago, Destino said:

This roster lacks the talent to win three series in the playoffs without excellent offense.  Doesn't matter how good Walls passing is, the bottom line is that NBA teams need to have great isolation scoring or a great team offense.  This team needs to come to terms with the fact that Wall, Beal, and Otto are never going to be great isolation options.  They will not score efficiently enough or avoid turnovers to the degree necessary against defenses that are ready and waiting for them.  

 

Agree but do you think that mean we need Wall to distribute less? 

2 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Unless someone makes a quantum leap, the Wall/Beal/Porter core will never be good enough to be a serious title contender.  We all know that in our hearts.

 

Not just in our hearts but on paper as well. They are great. Dont get me wrong. But they cant compete with the top 4 teams in the league in a series.  

[Destino]

51 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Agree but do you think that mean we need Wall to distribute less? 

Yes and no.  I don't think Wall is the problem.  The team over relying on him is the problem.  Wall should be distributing the ball, he's a fantastic point guard, but the team around him should be doing more. 

 

If Wall were to be part of a three star championship team, I think he'd lead his team in assists but might finish third in field goal attempts. 

  

Edited April 3, 2018 by Destino

[Llevron]

9 minutes ago, Destino said:

Yes and no.  I don't think Wall is the problem.  The team over relying on him is the problem.  Wall should be distributing the ball, he's a fantastic point guard, but the team around him should be doing more. 

 

If Wall were to be part of a three star championship team, I think he'd lead his team in assists but might finish third in field goal attempts. 

  

 

Ah ok. I feel you on that one. I absolutely think he should be doing that now. He should average about what he got on his comeback. 20 &14. If he could do that with Otto and Beal above him consistently in attempts I think we have a recipe for victory. 

[Destino]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

 

Ah ok. I feel you on that one. I absolutely think he should be doing that now. He should average about what he got on his comeback. 20 &14. If he could do that with Otto and Beal above him consistently in attempts I think we have a recipe for victory. 

Beal can average more shots than Wall already.  Otto though?  He had a very aggressive month in February, by his standards, and managed to average 14 shots a game.  He needs to get up to around 17. 

 

Otto is assisted on .630 of his two point shots and .909 of this threes.  Unless Otto learns how to dribble the ball and suddenly becomes aggressive to actually use those handles to create shots for himself it's unlikely his FGA attempts increase by much.  Unless he was traded to a team that runs a motion offense...

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

 

 

[Going Commando]

5 hours ago, Llevron said:

The problem previously with Wall was that he had the ball too long and that caused people to stop moving. If its hot in his hands and going to the open man that solves that problem and we get the looks. No problem there imo. The other was him doing nothing off ball. I still havent seen alot of that. We will see what happens there. He also needs to play better on ball D but again, we will see. 

 

Good post.  I agree with everything in it.  But particularly wanted to quote this part for truth.  The way John can change his game to help the team is to give more effort on D and off the ball.  His efficiency will tick up and the team will have a top ten defense if he does.

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

If Wall were to be part of a three star championship team, I think he'd lead his team in assists but might finish third in field goal attempts. 

 

We can get to that kind of balance in time, but it's going to take a lot of growth from Otto.  I think Otto can get to the point where he's an All Star, and at this very moment, he is an extremely valuable player who can give you 9 win shares a season.  But he's definitely not an All Star yet and I don't think him reaching that level is inevitable like it was for Wall and Beal.

[Going Commando]

48 minutes ago, Destino said:

Beal can average more shots than Wall already.  Otto though?  He had a very aggressive month in February, by his standards, and managed to average 14 shots a game.  He needs to get up to around 17. 

 

I don't think Otto needs to change his identity on offense, or that we need to change identities as a team.  I think he just needs to grow up and assert himself, and also for Wall to do a better job looking for him in the second half.  That Charlotte game was a window into what this offense can look like when he's letting his dick swing.  When he saw a shot, he took it without hesitation.  I like seeing him walk up to the three point line and shooting rather than passing it to a lesser shooter and running into the corner and waiting for the perfect look.

 

The other thing I found interesting was watching Otto's footwork when he plays with Wall vs when Wall is out.  Wall throws Otto open and gets Otto stepping into his shots.  That means if John keeps looking for him and Otto keeps thinking of himself as a first or second option, then we can have a potent offensive combination because Otto becomes one of the best shotmakers in the NBA when John is point guarding for him.

[Renegade7]

4 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

 

Counterpoint: 

 

we werent losing because of this stupid "everybody eats" or doesn't eat crap. Marcin should have been benched and sent home for that anyways.  We were losing because of 2 things:

 

1. Poor backup pg play. This has been fixed with sato's emergence and sessions resigning. Frazier was that bad. 

 

2. Poor late game offensive game plan/management/ and execution by Brad. This has not been fixed. 

You're missing my point that Des made better in three sentences then I could in three paragraphs:  This team around Wall needs to do more.  

 

To add to that: They showed some tweaks and ideas for how they can be successful without him, there's no reason to stop all that just because he's back.  They need to combine everything that works for them with other things we haven't tried yet to compete with these teams that have more talent then us and just play better basketball then us right now.

 

I don't understand how what you're talking about is a "counterpoint" to what I'm saying, but it really sounds like you didn't get my point to begin with, so don't sweat it.

 

I like that we're all being honest with ourselves in here, even if we don't like it.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Renegade7

[Llevron]

38 minutes ago, Destino said:

Beal can average more shots than Wall already.  Otto though?  He had a very aggressive month in February, by his standards, and managed to average 14 shots a game.  He needs to get up to around 17. 

 

Otto is assisted on .630 of his two point shots and .909 of this threes.  Unless Otto learns how to dribble the ball and suddenly becomes aggressive to actually use those handles to create shots for himself it's unlikely his FGA attempts increase by much.  Unless he was traded to a team that runs a motion offense...

 

I was unaware of these numbers to be honest. I wonder if force feeding him would be a good idea when you consider that. I had always assumed the issue was a lack of shots due to his non agressiveness and Wall not looking his way but if hes really only putting up 14 shots with Wall out then you are probably correct. 

 

Yall think it's in him to be the primary focus of we asked him to? Not saying we should (though I do think that would be best) but asking if you think he could do it. 

[Going Commando]

3 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

stop it slime

 

This core is not a title contender.

 

The Warriors window may close in 2019/2020

 

Wall will be on the wrong side of 30 at that point, with bad knees.

 

Otto has a bad hip. I don't care how much we want to pretend its not an issue, we have seen it affect him this year.

 

2 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Unless someone makes a quantum leap, the Wall/Beal/Porter core will never be good enough to be a serious title contender.  We all know that in our hearts.

 

I'm not sure I believe this.  I think you guys are too focused on the here and now and not considering the broader league changes which will determine the competitive landscape of the NBA during the years that our core reaches its prime.  Specifically, I think (hope) that the DPVE will significantly diminish the star player consolidation that's kept the league mostly uncompetitive since 2010.

 

Will Giannis sign with Anthony Davis's team when it's time for him to sign a third contract if Milwaukee can offer him 60 or 70 million more dollars than anyone else?

 

The era of the super team could be coming to an end, and what you might see are a lot more Houstons and Portlands representing the cream of the NBA--teams winning by acquiring a franchise player and a secondary star and then a bunch of quality role players.

 

I believe a Wall/Beal/Porter/Oubre/Sato core can compete in that kind of league.

 

Now if Wall doesn't live up to this contract and stays hurt, then I agree, we'll never be contenders.  I don't believe that Beal and Porter are good enough to ever be more than All Star reserves.  But I still think Wall has an elite gear he hasn't reached yet.  I think he can be an MVP caliber player, and that he makes future contention with this group possible.  It comes down to your level of belief in Wall really, and I still believe in his elite potential.

 

Nobody thought Golden State would be the team of the decade back in 2014, but Curry became a dominant MVP.  As good as Draymond Green and Andre Iggoudala and Klay Thompson are, that team would have been just another good 50 win western conference team if Curry doesn't make that leap.  At the time, Curry making that leap seemed similarly improbable to Wall making it now.

[Llevron]

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I like that we're all being honest with ourselves in here, even if we don't like it.

 

I say this and people laugh but being a Washington DC sports fan really does prepar you for life if you let it lol

[Renegade7]

4 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

What would you give up for Kawhi?

Not interested, not anymore, he's hurt more then the guy I wanted to him to replace (Porter).

2 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I say this and people laugh but being a Washington DC sports fan really does prepar you for life if you let it lol

*Arhg, my spleen.  That was so true it hurt, ouch, lolz (I say the same thing : )

7 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Yall think it's in him to be the primary focus of we asked him to? Not saying we should (though I do think that would be best) but asking if you think he could do it. 

Not anymore, and Steve has told me repeatedly to stop expecting that, so I will.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Renegade7

[Warhead36]

I'm not going to say Wall's career will end at 30 but he will have to learn how to play a different way without that blazing speed. But speed doesn't just go away at 30. Desean Jackson in the NFL is still a blazer and he's over 30 and he plays a much more physical sport. Wall will be fine.

 

But he needs to step his game up even more if we really want to contend. He needs to reach that superstar, 1st team All NBA level. He does that, we'll have a shot, especially in an Eastern Conference which could be wide open if Lebron goes West this summer. I don't buy the 76ers staying power with Embid getting hurt AGAIN. Celtics have some nice young talent but Irving has his own injury issues and who knows how Hayward will come back. Raptors will fizzle out after this year, this was their "everything lined up perfectly" year kinda like the TWolves in 04 when they won 60 games or those Hawks teams of a few years back that won a bunch in the regular season but got crapped on in the playoffs.