Russia unveils top secret new fighter

[China]

Russian fighter?

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[JMS]

I can tell you right now there's no way this aircraft rivals the F22. Just look at the pictures. No stealth technology that you can see. No to mention what makes the F22 so dominant isn't the airframe as much as the advanced software/targeting system. The stealth technology helps keep it hidden while it picks up targets miles away, engages and neutralizes them.

The dogfights from top gun don't exist with the F22. Not saying it can't outmanuever and fight like that but it doesn't have to. It sneaks up on you and pounces when you least expect it, most the time you won't even know you're dead until you're dead.

I agree with you. The deal here is Russia competes with the US in arms sales of fighter aircraft in places like India. Russia's airframes are very good because they create new ones every 5 years. Our airframes typically aren't as good, cause we create them once and use them for 20 - 30 years. When we upgrade we upgrade the avionics not the entire airframe.

What makes the F-22 and the JSF so revolutionary is they are 3rd generation stealth aircraft. Everybody from Russia to Iran is claiming they are producing third generation stealth airframes now. Fact is we are the only country to produce a first generation stealth aircraft, much less a third generation one....

The Russians pioneered advanced manuvering technology like vector thrusting... which is really cool. But who cares if they can't even see you coming, which is what stealth buys you.

Besides we've had stealth technology now for what more than three decades? Jimmy Carter was the president who first announced the stealth bomber. Does anybody really think we haven't thought up a way to defeat or counter stealth? I'm sure they've looked at it very carefully because I'm sure since we are selling stealth aircraft abroad, we've realized somebody would eventually come up with their own stealth package.

[JMS]

Anyone have a cost comparison? What did it cost to produce ours and price per plane compared to that? For some reason I get the feeling that everytime our military buys anything we are getting a Rolls Royce, which we all agree is very nice, for the price of a cruise liner.

America spends about 10x annually more on defense than today's Russia. I'm sure our planes are at least 1000-2000% more expensive than theirs.

[Sticksboi05]

I agree with you. The deal here is Russia competes with the US in arms sales of fighter aircraft in places like India. Russia's airframes are very good because they create new ones every 5 years. Our airframes typically aren't as good, cause we create them once and use them for 20 - 30 years. When we upgrade we upgrade the avionics not the entire airframe.

What makes the F-22 and the JSF so revolutionary is they are 3rd generation stealth aircraft. Everybody from Russia to Iran is claiming they are producing third generation stealth airframes now. Fact is we are the only country to produce a first generation stealth aircraft, much less a third generation one....

The Russians pioneered advanced manuvering technology like vector thrusting... which is really cool. But who cares if they can't even see you coming, which is what stealth buys you.

Besides we've had stealth technology now for what more than three decades? Jimmy Carter was the president who first announced the stealth bomber. Does anybody really think we haven't thought up a way to defeat or counter stealth? I'm sure they've looked at it very carefully because I'm sure since we are selling stealth aircraft abroad, we've realized somebody would eventually come up with their own stealth package.

The F22 is a fifth generation fighter.

[haithman]

"I've been in an F-22 and I know"

lol :stfu:

[zoony]

Anyone have a cost comparison? What did it cost to produce ours and price per plane compared to that? For some reason I get the feeling that everytime our military buys anything we are getting a Rolls Royce, which we all agree is very nice, for the price of a cruise liner.

you can make costs look just about however you want them to look. The US is historically guilty of rolling up costs into specific projects that many other countries put in other places.

of course, there is some fat too. But not to the level you imply

....

[Mad Mike]

So where are all the people who said the F22 is a waste and not needed because the Russians couldn't rival it? The Russians have been doing what we should all expect; just like us, they constantly look for the next best thing. If we hadn't developed the F22, they would have blown by us.

And for those who think the Russians don't have stealth, look at the photo.

See the sharp edges? Note how everything is angled? That's stealth design. The big intakes look to be a problem spot but they may have some tricks to minimize reflection that we cant see.

Is it better than the 22? I don't think so. But it looks like it could put up a good fight and if it can super cruise, it's probably well beyond the air superiority capabilities of the f35 because in air combat, speed = life.

[frostyj]

I agree with you. The deal here is Russia competes with the US in arms sales of fighter aircraft in places like India. Russia's airframes are very good because they create new ones every 5 years. Our airframes typically aren't as good, cause we create them once and use them for 20 - 30 years. When we upgrade we upgrade the avionics not the entire airframe.

What makes the F-22 and the JSF so revolutionary is they are 3rd generation stealth aircraft. Everybody from Russia to Iran is claiming they are producing third generation stealth airframes now. Fact is we are the only country to produce a first generation stealth aircraft, much less a third generation one....

The Russians pioneered advanced manuvering technology like vector thrusting... which is really cool. But who cares if they can't even see you coming, which is what stealth buys you.

Besides we've had stealth technology now for what more than three decades? Jimmy Carter was the president who first announced the stealth bomber. Does anybody really think we haven't thought up a way to defeat or counter stealth? I'm sure they've looked at it very carefully because I'm sure since we are selling stealth aircraft abroad, we've realized somebody would eventually come up with their own stealth package.

Not sure I follow on the airframe statement. If ours aren't as good then why do we use them 20-30yrs and they update theirs every 5? Guess the B-52 shows our airframes aren't good.

Also an fyi- 20yrs off our first stealth technology, it was with the SR-71 in 1968.

[frommd]

Can't we just send Clint Eastwood to get it?

[mjah]

Also an fyi- 20yrs off our first stealth technology, it was with the SR-71 in 1968.

Yeah, but I wouldn't call the SR-71 effective stealth technology. They put some interesting stealth concepts into the airframe/skin and I'm sure they reduced the radar signature, but the SR-71's infrared signature would light up radar for hundreds of miles in any direction. I've read that regular ol' air traffic control could even pick it up regularly (not just the transponder -- the plane itself).

[Oldskool]

Just because they say its a fifth generation fighter doesn't mean it is. The experts have been looking over this fighter and haven't seen anything on the exterior that points to a great leap in technology; they are reusing the same engines as their 4.5 gen fighters. Not to mention that it's commonly believed the Russians do not have the manufacturing ability to make advanced avionics, and the materials to manufacture the outer skin needed to make a stealthy plane - if at all.

My 2c is this is a hoax. When it comes to stealth, there will always be a competition between materials and electronics. Electronics, compared to materials is extremely inexpensive and evolving at a greater pace. Russia simply doesn't have the capacity now, and honestly never has, to compete with the western powers in the arena of materials. Now when it comes to electronics all and all that's a pretty even playing field. If they were serious about being on the same playing field as the U.S., they wouldn't try to strive to catch up with us in the materials race, but rather pull the rug from under our feet in the electronics department and the ability to detect our stealth aircraft.

[Madison Redskin]

This Russian fighter apparently does.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7007913.ece

The aircraft is more stealthy than a MIG-29, but I don't know if it is as stealthy as the F-22. Based on that article, it sounds like the shape of the airframe reduces its radar signature, but it doesn't sound like it is made of stealthy material.

[Johnny Punani]

Let me see if I got this right, they have made a jet that rivals something that we made 10 years ago. :thumbsup:

They are making something the Obama Admin decided to quit making last year.

[Vicious]

This plane will still own anyone that isn't the USA.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Here's some video for those interested:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ea5_1264770911

[Oldskool]

This plane will still own anyone that isn't the USA.

In other words, anyone that we don't give the export model of the FA-22 or FA-35 to. That really isn't many people not on our Christmas list. :cool:

[Johnny Punani]

This plane will still own anyone that isn't the USA.

cocaine is a helluva drug

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-300309-1.html

Fights between the F-22A and the PAK-FA will be close, high, fast and lethal. The F-22A may get ‘first look’ with the APG-77, the Advanced Infra Red Search and Track (AIRST) sensor having been deleted to save money, but the PAK-FA may get ‘first look’ using its advanced infrared sensor. Then, the engagement becomes a supersonic equivalent of the Battle of Britain or air combat over North Korea. The outcome will be difficult to predict as it will depend a lot on the combat skills of the pilots and the capabilities of the missiles for end-game kills. There is no guarantee that the F-22 will prevail every time.

The sustained turning performance of the F-35A Lightning II was recently disclosed as 4.95 G at Mach 0.8 and 15,000 ft. A 1969 F-4E Phantom II could sustain 5.5 Gs at 0.8 Mach with 40 percent internal fuel at 20,000 feet. The F-35 is also much slower than the 1960s F-4E or F-105D. So the F-35A’s aerodynamic performance is ‘retrograde’ when compared with 1960s legacy fighters. The consequence of such inferior JSF performance is that its DAS might detect an incoming missile, but the aircraft lacks the turn-rate to out-fly it. As the F-35 also lacks the performance to engage or escape, repeated ‘freebie’ shots from the PAK-FA could inflict high losses. Expect the exchange rate to be of the order of 4:1 in favour of the PAK-FA, possibly much higher[3].

[JMS]

Not sure I follow on the airframe statement. If ours aren't as good then why do we use them 20-30yrs and they update theirs every 5?

The F-14 was designed in the early 60's, first flew in 1970 and was retired 2006.

The F-15 was designed in the mid 1960's, first flew in 1972 and were still flying it today. more than 40 years after it was concieved.

Why do we use these old outdated airframes even though we could build new better ones? Because we have decided the airframes aren't nearly as important as the avionics. The radar, the fire control systems, the weapons packages. We upgrade those things all the time, and our airframes are engineered so we can replace them without swapping out the entire airframe.

So while the F-15, might be a 40 year old concept, what's kept that plane at the fore front of military aviation has been the ability to completely replace the inner workings of that plane to take advantage of new advances in electronics, radar, etc...

The raptor has the same capabilities... It's stealth and airframe are state of the art today, but we'll be flying that plane for 40 years too. The Russians will come out with problable six fighter designs over those years, and they will eventually have capabilities which the Raptor won't. Modern Russian Fighters have been introduced with capabilities which the F-15, and F-14 didn't have.. like vector thrust hyper manuverability.. But that didn't make them better planes, and it won't make the raptor a weaker plane ten years down the road.

We by quality, and we fly it longer. That philosophy was why no F-15 was ever shotdown by a russian/soviet built aircraft. The F-15 had something like a 108 air combat victories and has never been shot down in air to air combat. ( as of feb 2008)....again, no air superiority versions of the F-15 (A/B/C/D models) have ever been shot down by enemy forces.

Guess the B-52 shows our airframes aren't good.

The B-52 shows are airframes can fly for a very long time. But I don't think many would claim the B-52 couldn't have been improved upon over it's 60+ year lifespan and counting.

Also an fyi- 20yrs off our first stealth technology, it was with the SR-71 in 1968.

Yeah I've heard the SR-71 has stealth features. Still Jimmy Carter was the first President to acknowledge stealth technology and a stealth production combat aircraft when he tried to canceled the B-1 bomber.

[Vicious]

These planes are not meant to combat the USA. We both have nuclear weapons. Any fight between Russia would be done by submarines lobbing nukes onto cities. Ain't going to happen.

Russia can stomp anyone that wants to mess with their petro dollars.

[Johnny Punani]

These planes are not meant to combat the USA. We both have nuclear weapons. Any fight between Russia would be done by submarines lobbing nukes onto cities. Ain't going to happen.

Russia can stomp anyone that wants to mess with their petro dollars.

lol I wished I had such simplistic thoughts about national security.

[armstrong001]

I can tell you right now there's no way this aircraft rivals the F22. Just look at the pictures. No stealth technology that you can see.

Unintentional comedy at its best...

[JMS]

Just because they say its a fifth generation fighter doesn't mean it is. The experts have been looking over this fighter and haven't seen anything on the exterior that points to a great leap in technology; they are reusing the same engines as their 4.5 gen fighters. Not to mention that it's commonly believed the Russians do not have the manufacturing ability to make advanced avionics, and the materials to manufacture the outer skin needed to make a stealthy plane - if at all.

My 2c is this is a hoax. When it comes to stealth, there will always be a competition between materials and electronics. Electronics, compared to materials is extremely inexpensive and evolving at a greater pace. Russia simply doesn't have the capacity now, and honestly never has, to compete with the western powers in the arena of materials. Now when it comes to electronics all and all that's a pretty even playing field. If they were serious about being on the same playing field as the U.S., they wouldn't try to strive to catch up with us in the materials race, but rather pull the rug from under our feet in the electronics department and the ability to detect our stealth aircraft.

You are right to be skeptical. Even Iran is claiming to be manufacturing 3rd generation stealth fighters... Jane's experts were like, what happenned to generations 1-2? ( and 3 because they didn't let anybody confirm their stealthy characteristics of the planes they claimed were going to be stealthy).

The Russians sell their planes to china and india. In India they compete with the US in Sales. They have to promote their product. That's what this thing is all about. Frankly the biggest problem with our JSF and Raptor is the price tag. Their expensive as hell. That's the biggest problem were having in selling them, that and some of the countries which want them, congress doesn't think should have them.

I'm pretty sure we are still the only country in the world to manufacture a production stealth military aircraft, much less multiple generations of them. Nearly bankrupting us to do it too.

[JMS]

These planes are not meant to combat the USA. We both have nuclear weapons. Any fight between Russia would be done by submarines lobbing nukes onto cities. Ain't going to happen.

Russia can stomp anyone that wants to mess with their petro dollars.

Russia sells their planes and even plans for planes to other countries like China, Iran, Syria and Iraq (before 2003). Doesn't matter if we don't fight Russia. We or our allies will problable be using the JSF or the F-22 to shoot down Russian planes.

[Oldskool]

Russia sells their planes and even plans for planes to other countries like China, Iran, Syria and Iraq (before 2003). Doesn't matter if we don't fight Russia. We or our allies will problable be using the JSF or the F-22 to shoot down Russian planes.

Correct. Just because the cold war is over doesn't mean that the proxy war is.

Which kind of goes back to my question of why they are dumping millions of dollars into 'stealth' fighters when they can counter the advantage with less expensive leaps in electronics technology.

I still say this is a diversion and a Gen 4.5 fighter dressed in Gen 5 clothing. Something to save face and also distract the west from whatever advances in radar and surface to air guidance systems they are working on to counter the US.

[JMS]

There is no guarantee that the F-22 will prevail every time......

. Expect the exchange rate to be of the order of 4:1 in favour of the PAK-FA, possibly much higher[3].

The F-22 has sucessfully taken on and defeated six F-15's at the same time. Not because it can corner, pull G's or out accelerate the F-15's.

It's because the F-22 can see the F-15's and shot them down long before the F-15 pilots can see, much less shoot at the F-22.

Stealth capability is a huge advantage.