Poll: Do you believe the people that have the most, have "earned" it?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

how much different is the life between a guy making 5 mil a year and a guy making 500 mill a year? Diminishing returns on income mean that eventually the difference isn't all that big. At that point is where I would draw the line between elite and the super elite.

Just to illustrate lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_6QtoPO418

And since it's Chris Rock, it's NSFW due to language lol :cool:

[No_Pressure]

so to sum up, basically our system and people are ass backwards and that's all there is to it! lol

Thats absolutely what I'm saying. The ultimate determinate factor in the salary for an NFL player is what average people care about. People will say on an individual basis that they think teachers are underpaid, but very few people are actually willing to give up some of their money to pay for higher teacher salaries, the same can be said for a lot of professions.

The chairman of Goldman-Sachs isn't more important than the guy who is running the street sweeper outside. Chances are he's worked a lot less in his lifetime as well. At the same time people are more willing to give the guy at Goldman-Sachs their money in spite of his value to society.

Does it make sense? No. Would paying somebody based on their value to society make more sense? Yes. Is that ever going to happen in America? No.

So there you have it, you can only play the cards you are dealt.

[endzone_dave]

I want to change my answer to "it's complicated."

I didn't think we were talking about guys who created their own multibillion dollar businesses. Those guys certainly have "earned it" to a great extent. Nothing wrong with successful entrepeneurs.

I thought we were going to be talking about the average, comfortable upper middle class American like me. I know that I sure as hell didn't "earn it." I have had the road smoothed for me since the day I was born. Great schools, educated parents who read to me all the time, house full of books, help when I needed it, financial security and stability from my family including downpayment on a house, skate into a great college without really working hard in high school because of all my advantages, skate into a top law school because I went to a great college, skate into a high paying prestigious law firm job because I went to a prestigious law school, skate into my current position because I came from a prestigious law firm.

I meet people every day who have worked ten times harder than I ever have, yet don't have one tenth of what I have.

People who think that this is meritocracy are kidding themselves. There is a reason that 90 percent of the kids who grow up in places like McLean and Chevy Chase end up "successful" and 90 percent of the kids who grow up in places like Anacostia or Grundy, West Virginia end up "not successful." I guarantee you - it's not because of "merit."

I don't feel guilty about what I have and I'm not going to give it up, but I do not kid myself that the whole thing was even remotely fair. It wasn't.

I disagree 100%.

When I was in high school, I remember looking out the window during study hall while I was studying for a physics exam. I saw some kids just haning out in the smoking area. I remember seeing some kids just hanging out in the seniors area. I thought to myself, "Man, I hope all this studying is worth it." I also remember how stinking hard my engineering classes were in college and how much fun it was doing push-ups in the hot Missouri sun with a drill sergeant in my face, just so I could pay for college.

Fast forward 20 years. I stood around and watched four moving guys move my furniture from one house to another. They were busting their ass. Do I make 3 times more money than they do because I'm lucky or is it because I worked hard when it counted?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

But is the answer to that punishing people who found their niche and are kicking ass at what they do?

Everybody thinks that teachers should make more money, but whenever a local vote comes up to raise property taxes to pay for higher teacher salaries it gets voted down faster than...well lets face it, nothing gets voted down faster than a teacher's raise. A job like teaching in a public school is really determined by the people living in that community. You get what you pay for, and generally Americans are paying for crap so hey, the education of their children is crappy.

Look at where we are, we're on the message board of the Washington Redskins. We're all football fans. In an ideal world, Clinton Portis would be making a lot less than a teacher or a garbage man. If Clinton Portis doesn't carry the football for 2 weeks nobody is going to smell it. If the garbage isn't picked up for 2 weeks thats another story. That isn't how this society works. Average people like perhaps you and I pay hundreds to the Redskins because we want to see a football team win a game. We are the ones determining that Clinton Portis is a more valuable commodity to us than teachers or garbage men. If he wasn't, we would take all the money we give to the Redskins for entertainment yearly and give it to the local school district so they can give some teachers a raise.

We aren't all about to do that though, are we? The thankless jobs will continue to go thankless, and it isn't because somebody has their foot on your head and is holding you underwater. It's because thousands, even millions of people just don't give a **** about teachers, garbage men, etc. Thats all it comes down to.

Eh, not quite lol...

The reason someone like Portis gets all the money he gets is because he's harder to replace, and because he individually helps bring in more money to the company he works for. A teacher is much, MUCH easier to replace, and they don't help bring in income to the company they work for.

This is kind of why I said "earn" and "deserve" are two different issues when it comes to things like money and how much one gets.

[Predicto]

But the original question was about the people who have "the most"...I don't think the people who have "the most" fit the description you just laid out about yourself here. Believe it or not, it's DAMN hard to aquire so much that you're part of those who have "the most"...there's no skating involved there lol.

No, but there is a lot of luck involved as well. Take Bill Gates for example. Brilliant businessman, sure. But no one thinks that MS-DOS was the best operating system when he created it, nor have Microsoft products ever been very good since then. However, MS-DOS had one advantage - it was the operating system chosen by IBM for its computers at the beginning, and at that time, whatever IBM did, everyone else followed because SOMETHING had to be the industry standard, and bang! Gates has an unbreakable monopoly that he can leverage into the Microsoft juggernaut and soon becomes the richest man in the world.

If IBM had chosen a different operating system, we never would have heard of Bill Gates.

[NickGiaquinto1]

This poll should have another option ... The I Am a crybaby option.... If u want the dough go get it and quit acting like a child.

[No_Pressure]

Eh, not quite lol...

The reason someone like Portis gets all the money he gets is because he's harder to replace, and because he individually helps bring in more money to the company he works for. A teacher is much, MUCH easier to replace, and they don't help bring in income to the company they work for.

This is kind of why I said "earn" and "deserve" are two different issues when it comes to things like money and how much one gets.

The base salary in the NFL is 250,000 dollars isn't it?

Find me a public school teacher making more than 150,000 dollars in this entire country and I'll agree with you. As a community we value the Redskins more than education.

Also you're saying that Portis has a value in society because he brings in money and is hard to replace. I suppose good teachers are a dime a dozen then? And sure teachers don't bring in money, but isn't educating the next generation of Americans properly a little more important to us than if Portis can get 100 yards or score a touchdown next week? What do we as a community get back if the Redskins are good? Enjoyment. What do we get back if a teacher is good? Children that are educated and hopefully have the tools they need to succeed and become productive and upstanding members of our society.

Yeah, Clinton Portis is more important.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I disagree 100%.

Fast forward 20 years. I stood around and watched four moving guys move my furniture from one house to another. They were busting their ass. Do I make 3 times more money than they do because I'm lucky or is it because I worked hard when it counted?

How do we know unless we know how the moving guys spent their time in high school?

[Predicto]

I disagree 100%.

When I was in high school, I remember looking out the window during study hall while I was studying for a physics exam. I saw some kids just haning out in the smoking area. I remember seeing some kids just hanging out in the seniors area. I thought to myself, "Man, I hope all this studying is worth it." I also remember how stinking hard my engineering classes were in college and how much fun it was doing push-ups in the hot Missouri sun with a drill sergeant in my face, just so I could pay for college.

Fast forward 20 years. I stood around and watched four moving guys move my furniture from one house to another. They were busting their ass. Do I make 3 times more money than they do because I'm lucky or is it because I worked hard when it counted?

Yet, somehow, 90 percent of the guys who went to school in McLean and Chevy Chase are living reasonably high on the hog, and 90 percent of the guys who grew up in Anacostia and Grundy, WV, are struggling. Why is that?

[PokerPacker]

Yet, somehow, 90 percent of the guys who went to school in McLean and Chevy Chase are living reasonably high on the hog, and 90 percent of the guys who grew up in Anacostia and Grundy, WV, are struggling. Why is that?

there are a lot of factors involved, which unfortunately I can't discuss right now 'cause I am off to class (to work towards that engineering degree and my financial security.)

[SnyderShrugged]

Yet, somehow, 90 percent of the guys who went to school in McLean and Chevy Chase are living reasonably high on the hog, and 90 percent of the guys who grew up in Anacostia and Grundy, WV, are struggling. Why is that?

better connections? seriously

[boobiemiles]

Stop being stupid.

[No_Pressure]

there are a lot of factors involved, which unfortunately I can't discuss right now 'cause I am off to class (to work towards that engineering degree and my financial security.)

Stop holding back the little guy, *******.

[SkinsHokieFan]

If IBM had chosen a different operating system, we never would have heard of Bill Gates.

If Bill Gates did not live within walking distance of the University of Washington, we would have never heard of him

If his junior high school decided to spend money on say renovating the cafeteria so they could have fresh pizza made everyday, as opposed to buying one of the few computers in the world that you could program on, we would have never heard of Bill Gates

[Predicto]

there are a lot of factors involved, which unfortunately I can't discuss right now 'cause I am off to class (to work towards that engineering degree and my financial security.)

Good for you. You are fortunate to have that opportunity. Many never do. If you succeed, please remain aware that it is both hard work and good fortune that got you there.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

The base salary in the NFL is 250,000 dollars isn't it?

Find me a public school teacher making more than 150,000 dollars in this entire country and I'll agree with you. As a community we value the Redskins more than education.

You don't get what I was saying...

The pool of minimally-qualified teachers who can teach at a competent level is about 10,000 times larger than the pool of minimally-qualified football players who can play at a competent level in the NFL. So right there, football players are rarer than teachers, and thus more valuable.

Second, teachers do not help bring money into the county, city or government...at least not directly. Football players, however, DO help bring in boatloads of money into the franchises they play for. So right there you have a way of gaging the value of a football player's overall monetary value to a team that teachers just do not have at their disposal. A teacher's value is not measured in dollar amounts...a football player's value is (or can be).

Third, "teachers" as a group may deserve more money than football players, for example...but that does not mean they have earned that money more than football players have. You make the mistake of mixing up "earned" and "deserved".

[SnyderShrugged]

Stop being stupid.

WTF? Huh?

[Sticksboi05]

Some people have. Some got it easy.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

No, but there is a lot of luck involved as well. Take Bill Gates for example. Brilliant businessman, sure. But no one thinks that MS-DOS was the best operating system when he created it, nor have Microsoft products ever been very good since then. However, MS-DOS had one advantage - it was the operating system chosen by IBM for its computers at the beginning, and at that time, whatever IBM did, everyone else followed because SOMETHING had to be the industry standard, and bang! Gates has an unbreakable monopoly that he can leverage into the Microsoft juggernaut and soon becomes the richest man in the world.

If IBM had chosen a different operating system, we never would have heard of Bill Gates.

If you think Gates is a "brilliant businessman", then we definitely would have "heard of" him, even if not to the extent that we hear of him now.

And again, "luck" is merely preparation meeting opportunity. Gates didn't just trip over and end up partnering with IBM...we shouldn't make the misake of discounting all the hard work, talent and business smarts he put into practice leading up TO the point where IBM came into the picture. It wasn't like he won the Lottery, afterall lol...just picked 6 random numbers and got lucky.

[SkinsHokieFan]

If you think Gates is a "brilliant businessman", then we definitely would have "heard of" him, even if not to the extent that we hear of him now.

And again, "luck" is merely preparation meeting opportunity. Gates didn't just trip over and end up partnering with IBM...we shouldn't make the misake of discounting all the hard work, talent and business smarts he put into practice leading up TO the point where IBM came into the picture. It wasn't like he won the Lottery, afterall lol...just picked 6 random numbers and got lucky.

However Gates was fourtanate enough to be the son of a rich lawyer

That rich lawyer was able to send him to some rich private schools

The "mothers club" or whatever it was at his junior high school had 3,000 dollars extra to spend, and decided to purchase a computer, in 1968.

How many people on earth, in 1968, had a chance to work on a computer which you could actually program with?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

If Bill Gates did not live within walking distance of the University of Washington, we would have never heard of him

If his junior high school decided to spend money on say renovating the cafeteria so they could have fresh pizza made everyday, as opposed to buying one of the few computers in the world that you could program on, we would have never heard of Bill Gates

If Bill Gates had not had the internal desires and ambitions he had, we would not have heard of Bill Gates lol :yes:...

[Predicto]

better connections? seriously

Better everything.

Better schools.

Better nutrition.

Better home environments.

Better role models.

Better safety.

Better connections.

Better family finances.

Better societal expectations.

Better opportunities.

Better standardized test preparation.

Better every single possible thing that could lead them toward success rather than failure.

Like I said, I'm not guilty for what I have. That makes no sense, I don't "deserve" failure any more than anyone else. But I don't kid myself that people in my situation entirely earned by merit this comfortable place we have in life. That would be lying to myself. And there are a hell of a lot more people out there just like me than there are guys like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.

[Burgold]

Anyone who posts on this board frequently probably has a skewed understanding of what it means to "earn it"

I think that there are a lot of factors outside of effort that are involved in wealth. First, your skillset has to be valued. Second, you have to get noticed by the right people. Third, you have to produce. Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh...

Raw talent and hard work are only a small part of the equation. Look how many talentless actors and actresses in the movies and tv make millions. Look at the actors or singers who so often phone in a performance or lip sync and make it.

[SkinsHokieFan]

If Bill Gates had not had the internal desires and ambitions he had, we would not have heard of Bill Gates lol :yes:...

Odds are Bill Gates still would have been a very successful person at whatever he chose to do.

He just wouldn't have changed the world

[endzone_dave]

Yet, somehow, 90 percent of the guys who went to school in McLean and Chevy Chase are living reasonably high on the hog, and 90 percent of the guys who grew up in Anacostia and Grundy, WV, are struggling. Why is that?

My wife went to McLean high school. She busted her ass in school and got a masters degree in epidemiology. Her friends from her high school all seemed to work hard educating themselves. Mabye that's the key.