Poll: Do you believe the people that have the most, have "earned" it?

[No_Pressure]

I believe that you have what you make for yourself mixed with a bit of luck. Take my father for an example. Right now he is a top executive with a top contractor and is pulling in a 7 figure salary. He also struggled with a terrible home life (constant beatings/psychological torment), barely made it through high school, and flunked out of Montgomery College because he didn't feel like going to his classes. He was sitting around getting drunk every night with his friends at age 19 and had nothing bright in his future.

He joined the Navy, was trained as a corpsman, was transferred to a Marine infantry unit, was a decorated serviceman in the mid 70's, and upon returning home, decided to use the military to attend UMD. He earned his degree in 3 years, and started working. He had crap jobs until he was hired at his current company in 1986. His base salary was 32,000 per year and he entered as a level 3. The ranking system goes level 1,2,3,4 then principle 1,2,3,4 then partner 1,2,3. It took him 20 years to work his way up the chain to partner. He attended night school to receive a master's degree in finance in the early 90's from Johns Hopkins. All while supporting a stay at home wife and 3 kids.

Right now he is finally getting the benefits for his years of hard work. Nobody in his family ever gave him anything. My grandfather was a ww2 combat infantry veteran and worked for the department of defense and never made over 40k per year. Everything my dad has he got for himself. He is probably worth tens of millions of dollars these days because he always saved and invested his money wisely.

He is considered wealthy, and people like to just gloss over people who have wealth and say they are all just a bunch of over privileged *******s who inherited their fortunes, or made them through shady practices and not hard work. People out there resent the fact that people like my father made it into the right situation for them to succeed, and would like it if the government took away the money and wealth he has worked his entire life for and handed it out to other people.

Or perhaps they would like to take that wealth away from me? Well guess what, I don't have it. I am working and providing for myself, my dad has his money, I have mine. I will inherit a share of what he had one day, but it isn't like he's going out and buying me houses and computers and cars like every rich person stereotype. He lives in a decent sized house with 4 bedrooms that used to house 5 people. He isn't living on a 10 acre mansion. He drives an Acura TL because he likes the car, not one of those 200k mercedes.

Even if he did those things, what business is it of anybody else how much money someone else has? All you need to focus on is yourself and you'll get by. So somebody has something you don't. I really wish I had a 1968 SS Camaro. I saw multiple examples of this car at a car show last weekend. Should I claim that the wealth of 68' Camaros needs to be redistributed because its unfair that somebody has something I don't?

Oh and yeah, I'm not following in the business of being a rich person either. I'm getting my degree to be a secondary education teacher. I'm going to teach history at the high school level. I made a choice. I could have tried to do what my dad did and make lots of money, or go with what I felt I was good at and make squat.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I'm really glad for you, and I hope you do well. I sincerely do. I also hope that whenever the managers of whatever company you start working for screws things up so bad, and they have to lay off 5000 people to keep their "profit margin", that your not one of them.

I have a cousin who has a Master's Degree in Education right now, that can't get a job teaching. Education is nice, but it's all about the bottom line. If you have to lose your job, so your CEO can keep his summer home in the south of france...well ya gotta go.

Again, bull****.

Education isn't "nice"...it's preparation. Prepatation allows you to take advantage of FAR more opportunities than you'd normally be able to take advantage of....it keeps you viable.

I have been one of those who were "downsized", about 2 years after getting my first graphic design job working for an industrial design firm. They got bought out, and the new company started laying people off...my turn came up, and I was out of a job. But I never looked at that job as some sort of lifetime means of support, so I kept a lot of irons in the fire...networked, made connections with my coworkers during my time with the company...constantly looked into ways of becoming independent and doing freelance work, took side jobs all the damn time...etc, etc. During the down times I worked a wide variety of jobs until I could get more work...

And, yep, the contacts and networking and all that paid off...I'm an independent contractor now and I'm making even more money than I was with that first initial job I took. I didn't need that company to stay solvent and in business in order for me to be financially secure....it's far, FAR more an individual mindset than it is external circumstances outside of our control.

[PokerPacker]

I'm really glad for you, and I hope you do well. I sincerely do. I also hope that whenever the managers of whatever company you start working for screws things up so bad, and they have to lay off 5000 people to keep their "profit margin", that your not one of them.

Engineers aren't exactly expendable, but if I were laid off, it wouldn't be too hard to find another company in need. I have a friend who's been hopping from engineering jobs not because he's been laid off, but because he's gotten bored and moved on to another. We're needed not only for doing actual work, but as a certified engineer (rather than just someone with the know-how) I can legally sign off on documents that someone else can't. So if a company has a person doing all this work for them but isn't certified, they'd need me for the singular purpose of signing off on his documents.

[mardi gras skin]

Paul Allen-1953

Steve Jobs-1955

Bill Gates-1955

Bill Joy (founder of Sun Microsystems)-1954

12 million other people born in America from 1953 to 1955 didn't go on to become cornerstones in the computer industry.

[skinfan133]

whats broken?

the way wealth is distributed in this country

Edit: who gets it, and why

problem solved :evilg:

[SkinsHokieFan]

12 million other people born in America from 1953 to 1955 didn't go on to become cornerstones in the computer industry.

Agree. Those 12 million other people also didn't have access to computers in the late 1960s

[December90]

People who make it big have to take risks. You don't wanna take that risk? That's fine. But you have to live with the life you've cut out for yourself.

Personally, I'm studying to be an Engineer; a well-paid profession in high demand. Education is my key to financial success.

Agreed,

Another thing that people need to realize is that NOTHING is permanent (other than death;))

If you are facing tough times, you can work your way through them and come out on top, don't give up.

If you are living the high life because everything has gone your way, you had better be planning (saving, diversifying, etc) for when things are no longer falling your way, so that the shifting winds will not turn you completely upside down. If you are busy making wagon wheels when the automobile comes along, don't cry about the automobile ruining the wagon wheel business, adapt and grow. Don't tell yourself that you are incapable of success because of some perceived barrier in your way.

[Commander PK]

Rock, I'm not talking about jealousy over what somebody else has. I understand that some people will always have more. I'm talking about even earning a relatively modest living through back breaking work. I work in a thankless field, and do a job that most people don't even want to know about. I put up with all sorts of verbal abuse, and stressful situations where I could be seriously injured or killed at any time. I shouldn't have to struggle just to keep the lights on. People like teachers, shouldn't have to struggle to make ends meet. The average teacher makes what? 50 thousand a year? These are the people we entrust our children to, not to mention the stress that goes with the job. I don't know how most people could do it if they didn't have two solid incomes, and then the trade of is your kids are being raised by television and strangers. Shouldn't be that way.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I also think I am talking about something different from what everyone else is talking about

If you want to be part of the super elite global class, you a) best be born into it or be in the right place at the right time and have a lot of things go your way

You work hard, do the right thing, you can make a very nice living for yourself

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I also think I am talking about something different from what everyone else is talking about

If you want to be part of the super elite global class, you a) best be born into it or be in the right place at the right time and have a lot of things go your way

You work hard, do the right thing, you can make a very nice living for yourself

There's quite a bit of space in between the "super elite global class" and those "making a very nice living for themselves", though lol...

For instance, I would say making $5 mil a year fits neither of those descriptions.

[SkinsHokieFan]

There's quite a bit of space in between the "super elite global class" and those "making a very nice living for themselves", though lol...

For instance, I would say making $5 mil a year fits neither of those descriptions.

I agree. I think the OP may be talking about that, but I am probably wrong.

I just happened to pick up Outliers the other day, so this thought has been on my mind

[Prosperity]

earning is a moral word. The free market is amoral so success in the free market is not necessarily linked in any way to "earning" something (though they could go together most of the time).

[Predicto]

I want to change my answer to "it's complicated."

I didn't think we were talking about guys who created their own multibillion dollar businesses. Those guys certainly have "earned it" to a great extent. Nothing wrong with successful entrepeneurs.

I thought we were going to be talking about the average, comfortable upper middle class American like me. I know that I sure as hell didn't "earn it." I have had the road smoothed for me since the day I was born. Great schools, educated parents who read to me all the time, house full of books, help when I needed it, financial security and stability from my family including downpayment on a house, skate into a great college without really working hard in high school because of all my advantages, skate into a top law school because I went to a great college, skate into a high paying prestigious law firm job because I went to a prestigious law school, skate into my current position because I came from a prestigious law firm.

I meet people every day who have worked ten times harder than I ever have, yet don't have one tenth of what I have.

People who think that this is meritocracy are kidding themselves. There is a reason that 90 percent of the kids who grow up in places like McLean and Chevy Chase end up "successful" and 90 percent of the kids who grow up in places like Anacostia or Grundy, West Virginia end up "not successful." I guarantee you - it's not because of "merit."

I don't feel guilty about what I have and I'm not going to give it up, but I do not kid myself that the whole thing was even remotely fair. It wasn't.

[Prosperity]

I would say making $5 mil a year fits neither of those descriptions.

how much different is the life between a guy making 5 mil a year and a guy making 500 mill a year? Diminishing returns on income mean that eventually the difference isn't all that big. At that point is where I would draw the line between elite and the super elite.

[Predicto]

I also think I am talking about something different from what everyone else is talking about

If you want to be part of the super elite global class, you a) best be born into it or be in the right place at the right time and have a lot of things go your way

You work hard, do the right thing, you can make a very nice living for yourself

Not only that, but if you are born into the global elite, you will get a second and third and fourth chance to succeed until you finally do. See Bush, George W., or Kennedy, Ted.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

earning is a moral word. The free market is amoral so success in the free market is not necessarily linked in any way to "earning" something (though they could go together most of the time).

I'm not sure if "earning" is a moral word..."Deserving" is, though.

[Commander PK]

earning is a moral word. The free market is amoral so success in the free market is not necessarily linked in any way to "earning" something (though they could go together most of the time).

this is true, can't argue with this statement. I guess in the end there is no "morality" in the free market. It's dog eat dog. In the end, I guess that is on principle something I have a problem with.

For example, take buying a house. How is it, that in 1999 you could buy a brand new 1 story rambler with no basement for 50,000, but now that same house 10 years older is worth 175,000? Makes no sense whatsoever. How could a home that has aged 10 years be worth over 3 times what it was when it was first built? This makes no logical sense whatsoever.

[Prosperity]

I'm not sure if "earning" is a moral word..."Deserving" is, though.

they kind of go hand in hand

if you earn something you deserve it

if you don't earn then you don't deserve it (if you still get it without earning it that is...ie stealing)

you can deserve something without earning it though

edit for fixing mistake

[Califan007 The Constipated]

how much different is the life between a guy making 5 mil a year and a guy making 500 mill a year? Diminishing returns on income mean that eventually the difference isn't all that big. At that point is where I would draw the line between elite and the super elite.

As Chris Rock once said, "I'm not talking about 'rich', I'm talking about 'wealth'...Shaq is rich. The guy signing Shaq's paycheck is weathy!" lol

[No_Pressure]

Rock, I'm not talking about jealousy over what somebody else has. I understand that some people will always have more. I'm talking about even earning a relatively modest living through back breaking work. I work in a thankless field, and do a job that most people don't even want to know about. I put up with all sorts of verbal abuse, and stressful situations where I could be seriously injured or killed at any time. I shouldn't have to struggle just to keep the lights on. People like teachers, shouldn't have to struggle to make ends meet. The average teacher makes what? 50 thousand a year? These are the people we entrust our children to, not to mention the stress that goes with the job. I don't know how most people could do it if they didn't have two solid incomes, and then the trade of is your kids are being raised by television and strangers. Shouldn't be that way.

But is the answer to that punishing people who found their niche and are kicking ass at what they do?

Everybody thinks that teachers should make more money, but whenever a local vote comes up to raise property taxes to pay for higher teacher salaries it gets voted down faster than...well lets face it, nothing gets voted down faster than a teacher's raise. A job like teaching in a public school is really determined by the people living in that community. You get what you pay for, and generally Americans are paying for crap so hey, the education of their children is crappy.

Look at where we are, we're on the message board of the Washington Redskins. We're all football fans. In an ideal world, Clinton Portis would be making a lot less than a teacher or a garbage man. If Clinton Portis doesn't carry the football for 2 weeks nobody is going to smell it. If the garbage isn't picked up for 2 weeks thats another story. That isn't how this society works. Average people like perhaps you and I pay hundreds to the Redskins because we want to see a football team win a game. We are the ones determining that Clinton Portis is a more valuable commodity to us than teachers or garbage men. If he wasn't, we would take all the money we give to the Redskins for entertainment yearly and give it to the local school district so they can give some teachers a raise.

We aren't all about to do that though, are we? The thankless jobs will continue to go thankless, and it isn't because somebody has their foot on your head and is holding you underwater. It's because thousands, even millions of people just don't give a **** about teachers, garbage men, etc. Thats all it comes down to.

[Commander PK]

I thought we were going to be talking about the average, comfortable upper middle class American like me. I know that I sure as hell didn't "earn it." I have had the road smoothed for me since the day I was born. Great schools, educated parents who read to me all the time, house full of books, help when I needed it, financial security and stability from my family including downpayment on a house, skate into a great college without really working hard in high school because of all my advantages, skate into a top law school because I went to a great college, skate into a high paying prestigious law firm job because I went to a prestigious law school, skate into my current position because I came from a prestigious law firm.

I meet people every day who have worked ten times harder than I ever have, yet don't have one tenth of what I have.

People who think that this is meritocracy are kidding themselves. There is a reason that 90 percent of the kids who grow up in places like McLean and Chevy Chase end up "successful" and 90 percent of the kids who grow up in places like Anacostia or Grundy, West Virginia end up "not successful." I guarantee you - it's not because of "merit."

I don't feel guilty about what I have and I'm not going to give it up, but I do not kid myself that the whole thing was even remotely fair. It wasn't.

Wow, this is more or less the angle I was going for, and the fact that you are "one of them" and can admit all this...to be frank astounds me. I have a new found respect for you Predicto.

[Prosperity]

this is true, can't argue with this statement. I guess in the end there is no "morality" in the free market. It's dog eat dog. In the end, I guess that is on principle something I have a problem with.

For example, take buying a house. How is it, that in 1999 you could buy a brand new 1 story rambler with no basement for 50,000, but now that same house 10 years older is worth 175,000? Makes no sense whatsoever. How could a home that has aged 10 years be worth over 3 times what it was when it was first built? This makes no logical sense whatsoever.

and thus the invention of wealth redistribution

the free market creates wealth (some types of it anyway), but it's up to reasonable people to redistribute in a moral way for the betterment of society.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

they kind of go hand in hand

if you earn something you deserve it

if you don't earn then you don't deserve it

you can deserve something without earning it though

Well, I kind of agree :yes:...but "earn", to me anyway, means that you've met the minimal requirements for what you received in return. "Deserve", on the other hand, goes more into a moral judgement area.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I want to change my answer to "it's complicated."

I didn't think we were talking about guys who created their own multibillion dollar businesses. Those guys certainly have "earned it" to a great extent. Nothing wrong with successful entrepeneurs.

I thought we were going to be talking about the average, comfortable upper middle class American like me. I know that I sure as hell didn't "earn it." I have had the road smoothed for me since the day I was born. Great schools, educated parents who read to me all the time, house full of books, help when I needed it, financial security and stability from my family including downpayment on a house, skate into a great college without really working hard in high school because of all my advantages, skate into a top law school because I went to a great college, skate into a high paying prestigious law firm job because I went to a prestigious law school, skate into my current position because I came from a prestigious law firm.

I meet people every day who have worked ten times harder than I ever have, yet don't have one tenth of what I have.

People who think that this is meritocracy are kidding themselves. There is a reason that 90 percent of the kids who grow up in places like McLean and Chevy Chase end up "successful" and 90 percent of the kids who grow up in places like Anacostia or Grundy, West Virginia end up "not successful." I guarantee you - it's not because of "merit."

I don't feel guilty about what I have and I'm not going to give it up, but I do not kid myself that the whole thing was even remotely fair. It wasn't.

But the original question was about the people who have "the most"...I don't think the people who have "the most" fit the description you just laid out about yourself here. Believe it or not, it's DAMN hard to aquire so much that you're part of those who have "the most"...there's no skating involved there lol.

[Commander PK]

But is the answer to that punishing people who found their niche and are kicking ass at what they do?

Everybody thinks that teachers should make more money, but whenever a local vote comes up to raise property taxes to pay for higher teacher salaries it gets voted down faster than...well lets face it, nothing gets voted down faster than a teacher's raise. A job like teaching in a public school is really determined by the people living in that community. You get what you pay for, and generally Americans are paying for crap so hey, the education of their children is crappy.

Look at where we are, we're on the message board of the Washington Redskins. We're all football fans. In an ideal world, Clinton Portis would be making a lot less than a teacher or a garbage man. If Clinton Portis doesn't carry the football for 2 weeks nobody is going to smell it. If the garbage isn't picked up for 2 weeks thats another story. That isn't how this society works. Average people like perhaps you and I pay hundreds to the Redskins because we want to see a football team win a game. We are the ones determining that Clinton Portis is a more valuable commodity to us than teachers or garbage men. If he wasn't, we would take all the money we give to the Redskins for entertainment yearly and give it to the local school district so they can give some teachers a raise.

We aren't all about to do that though, are we? The thankless jobs will continue to go thankless, and it isn't because somebody has their foot on your head and is holding you underwater. It's because thousands, even millions of people just don't give a **** about teachers, garbage men, etc. Thats all it comes down to.

so to sum up, basically our system and people are ass backwards and that's all there is to it! lol