WP: Wise - Zorn's Trickery Proved Rather Revealing

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The two obvious mistakes he made are very solvable. He actually solved the "move up in the pocket" problem in that game. It is unknown if the deep pass or the audible was a mistake (because it might have been because the play called was dead in the water because of the defense),

They are the same mistakes he has made for five years. If they were solvable, somebody should have fixed them by now.

Funny, but Campbell DID make it competitive at the end. He at least put us into a position to do an onside kick and have an opportunity to tie it up if we made it. I didn't see much wrong that Campbell did in the second half. I did see a lot wrong that Zorn did in his playcalling. Just too many run calls and not enough putting it in Campbell's hands. I mean, it is sad when you can predict the run plays on 1st down.

Campbell is not untalented. He is always going to give you a few moments in a game where you think, "Wow! Look at what we could have!"

But it never seems to become a trend.

[lefty420]

Shake the sand out sweetheart. That wasn't my point.

My point was that some of the talking heads said the same thing about Fisher in that game. "Why is he doing this now? He should save it for later in the season. He's giving it away...Blah blah blah blah...."

Jeff Fisher is a great coach. Don't put too much stock in the talking heads.

What talking heads? WTF are you talking about?

I don't care what Jeff Fisher does in a preseason game. I also have no opinion on the fake fg we did.

I am talking about the scheme to run run pass. I don't listen to talking heads.

This is why I tape games and watch them over and over again.

[Wyvern]

Lefty and Skinsinparadise:

Lefty -- No offense taken. I understand now.

Skins -- You make good points. Mine was that Zorn inherited a lot of Gibbs material, and was asked to make it into something different. The types of offensive players selected in the 2008 draft will blossom in 2-3 years. (That's about par for the course, except for TEs and I think Davis is being groomed as more of a WR/TE) That's his main personnel change on offense -- besides adding Mason and Marko, who fit the WCO style.

Hey, Zorn agreed to take this task on. But I suspect he figured he'd thought have a few years to make this work. 1-2 years is a short tenure, and coaches don't get fired that quickly, unless something is obviously wrong with the coach.

Apparently, we all don't agree that something is obviously wrong with Zorn and that he needs to be replaced ASAP. This does not seem like Spurrier, who I felt was not up to the task.

Lastly, I think that Zorn has tweaked his WCO to fit Campbell's strength, and weaknesses. We just didn't get to see enough of the offense yesterday to make a firm judgement of what those tweaks are. We had hints of them in the preseason.

[lefty420]

Lefty and Skinsinparadise:

Lefty -- No offense taken. I understand now.

Skins -- You make good points. Mine was that Zorn inherited a lot of Gibbs material, and was asked to make it into something different. The types of offensive players selected in the 2008 draft will blossom in 2-3 years. (That's about par for the course, except for TEs and I think Davis is being groomed as more of a WR/TE) That's his main personnel change on offense -- besides adding Mason and Marko, who fit the WCO style.

Hey, Zorn agreed to take this task on. But I suspect he figured he'd thought have a few years to make this work. 1-2 years is a short tenure, and coaches don't get fired that quickly, unless something is obviously wrong with the coach.

Apparently, we all don't agree that something is obviously wrong with Zorn and that he needs to be replaced ASAP. This does not seem like Spurrier, who I felt was not up to the task.

Lastly, I think that Zorn has tweaked his WCO to fit Campbell's strength, and weaknesses. We just didn't get to see enough of the offense yesterday to make a firm judgement of what those tweaks are. We had hints of them in the preseason.

What has Zorn shown you that says he can do this that Spurrier didn't?

I think your really just hooked on the 6-2 start from last year. If we had gone 4-12 last year how would you feel about Zorn?

6-2 was before anyone had seen his offense.

2-6 is after 8 games as the coach. The team went backwards. We lost to the Bengals.

So what specifically has Zorn shown?

P.S. The avg tenure of a NFL coach is 2 1/2 years. That means 2-3 years. Zorn is not being treated any diff.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think this has been mentioned, but the looks on Zorn's face and Danny Smith's face were not of the "We really put one over" variety - you know, that ****-eating grin, Parcells' staff used to break out everytime they won a 17-14 game against Gibbs on some BS "Jap play."

The looks said, "Wow....I cannot BELIEVE that worked."

The psychology seemed like a desperate move by a desperate team.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I think this has been mentioned' date=' but the looks on Zorn's face and Danny Smith's face were not of the "We really put one over" variety - you know, that ****-eating grin, Parcells' staff used to break out everytime they won a 17-14 game against Gibbs on some BS "Jap play."

The looks said, "Wow....I cannot BELIEVE that worked."

The psychology seemed like a desperate move by a desperate team.[/quote']

I don't disagree with that observation.

[Veretax]

Oh Lord... if after the first few plays he stuck to the script.... Zorn is done if he continues to do that.

[TheLongshot]

They are the same mistakes he has made for five years. If they were solvable' date=' somebody should have fixed them by now.[/quote']

He's thrown passes past the line of scrimmage before? I don't remember that.

As for not moving up in the pocket, maybe he's still used to not having room to move up in the pocket from last year.

I do think he's a lot more accurate than he was last year. He actually gave receivers a chance to do something with the ball.

[hkHog]

The Randel El play, the running the ball three times on the two, and the lack of shots to the end zone in the red zone shows Zorn has no confidence in JC. The audible shows JC has no confidence in himself. This is a bad combination.

[Merlin Emrys]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from Portis's comments about the plays being scripted, we can assume that the reverse pass was actually pre-planned as the second play from scrimage. Had Portis's 1st run only gone for 5 yards, that means El would have made that throw from inside the Redskins territory. That's troubling since such a high risk gimmick play could end so badly in your own territory.

[TheLongshot]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from Portis's comments about the plays being scripted, we can assume that the reverse pass was actually pre-planned as the second play from scrimage. Had Portis's 1st run only gone for 5 yards, that means El would have made that throw from inside the Redskins territory. That's troubling since such a high risk gimmick play could end so badly in your own territory.

You are assuming that down and distance doesn't contribute in whether or not a play is run. Coaches can break and jump around in the script as the situation dictates.

Also, I don't see what is "high risk" about the play. Either it is open and you throw the ball, or it is not and the guy gets rid of it. In any case, it was a play that the team felt before the game that they could exploit weaknesses in the Giants secondary. Give them some credit for covering it and some blame to ARE for trying to make something happen.

[Skinsinparadise]

Lefty and Skinsinparadise:

Lefty -- No offense taken. I understand now.

Skins -- You make good points. Mine was that Zorn inherited a lot of Gibbs material, and was asked to make it into something different. The types of offensive players selected in the 2008 draft will blossom in 2-3 years. (That's about par for the course, except for TEs and I think Davis is being groomed as more of a WR/TE) That's his main personnel change on offense -- besides adding Mason and Marko, who fit the WCO style.

Hey, Zorn agreed to take this task on. But I suspect he figured he'd thought have a few years to make this work. 1-2 years is a short tenure, and coaches don't get fired that quickly, unless something is obviously wrong with the coach.

Apparently, we all don't agree that something is obviously wrong with Zorn and that he needs to be replaced ASAP. This does not seem like Spurrier, who I felt was not up to the task.

I lean more in the direction of Lefty aside from the dump Zorn now drill. My take is my gut is that Zorn isn't the goods. I articulated that in detail in some of my debates with Oldfan on the board this off season who by the way said today he questions Zorn and believes the Giants out coached him.

I hope Zorn proves me wrong, seems like a cool guy, I just don't get excited about him as a play caller or have faith in him matching wits with the better coaches in the league.

I am with you in theory about giving coaches three years as long as there aren't clear potential issues with them and with Zorn if their offense struggles I see a few of these "issues" likely happening:

They brought him on in part becuase of their thought that he can transform Jason into a franchise QB

They were hiring him initially as an offensive coordinator to improve the offense

There was already internal rumbiling in the locker room last year about him and if it builds and he loses the lockerroom -- this trifecta I think would and should do him in.

Conversly, if the offense improves, Jason makes strides, the clubhouse is with them even if they finish 8-8 they IMO should keep him. But I don't expect that to happen, they can end up 8-8 or 9-7 but I doubt its going to be with Zorn impressing on the offensive side of the ball.

[icbmayday]

I think he will get fired this year unless he can show he can call plays which he hasn't shown last year or in this first game.

[Merlin Emrys]

You are assuming that down and distance doesn't contribute in whether or not a play is run. Coaches can break and jump around in the script as the situation dictates.

Also, I don't see what is "high risk" about the play. Either it is open and you throw the ball, or it is not and the guy gets rid of it. In any case, it was a play that the team felt before the game that they could exploit weaknesses in the Giants secondary. Give them some credit for covering it and some blame to ARE for trying to make something happen.

Okay, are you guessing on both points like every other fan or do you have some sort of experience that makes you an authority about how play calling works? If you aren't a former NFL coach or player, perhaps you shouldn't try to instruct other people about things in which you're not authority.