Why Does Hall Get Paid More Than Rogers?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

that is REALLY a reach. if you'll remember, (before 2008) we played ALL of our receivers off their man. just like we play Landry 20y off the line of scrimmage. you can't blame Carlos for being where he's supposed to be. the underneath passing game was a huge failing of GW's scheme, imo.

You mean we played all of our defensive backs off their man/the O-line lol :thumbsup:...and you're right, of course, in that they did NOT back Rogers off the line so far because of their lack of faith...they played EVERY defensive back that far back...hell, I remember one game where Carlos, right before the snap, starts approaching the line and getting up close to it, and Springs waves him back from the other side of the field, at which point Carlos backpeddles really quick to get into position before the snap.

Playing off the line was a scheme thing, NOT a Carlos-thing.

[budski]

Hall is taller.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Hall is taller.

:rotflmao:

[Stadium-Armory]

Timing, both on the field and off.

[RandyHolt]

Largely, hands. Hall's much more of a playmaker; Carlos just has no hands. I'd guess that Hall has been more durable up to now as well. Cant Hall handle return duty?

[NewCliche21]

Playmakers get paid a premium, not someone who can just stick to their assignments. Hall showed discipline and that he can stick on his man. Hall will win you a game, and won't lose won either. Rogers will flat out not win you a game.

Well, Hall CAN lose you a game. The first pick that he had as a Redskin was because the ball was thrown behind the receiver. Had it been thrown where it should have been, then Hall would've been burnt for six.

I think what we're all missing, though, is that it's not an "either or" scenario. We have BOTH. And THAT is going to be one hell of a secondary.

[SB17]

Interceptions kill drives. Dropped interceptions don't; they (usually) give the offense another opportunity to get a first down, and they keep the defense on the field. Most people see: Hall = interceptions; Rogers = dropped interceptions.

Hypothetical: Rogers and Hall both become free agents at the same time - who would you take?

[moondog]

Well the most obvious is because Rogers is still on his rookie contract. But perhaps more specifically, maybe Rogers is a better cover corner (no doubt better in run support) but the fact is D. Hall can gamble in our defense because he has Landry over top and a great defense behind and and now in front of him. Bottom line: Hall had more picks for us in 7 games last year than Rogers did the whole season if memory serves. With our defense helping out if Hall isn't in position, his interceptions actually make a bigger impact than Rogers' coverage. That being said, I think Hall is much better in coverage IN OUR defense than given credit for and will show that this year, especially with Gray coaching him - Gray has been very, very high on him. But I expect Rogers to get a very similar contract this year or next offseason, I only hope and pray it's with us.

[NewCliche21]

Interceptions kill drives. Dropped interceptions don't; they (usually) give the offense another opportunity to get a first down, and they keep the defense on the field. Most people see: Hall = interceptions; Rogers = dropped interceptions.

Hypothetical: Rogers and Hall both become free agents at the same time - who would you take?

You're missing something very key in your assessment:

Defensed passes, or passes that aren't thrown at all due to tight coverage, kill drives MUCH more often than interceptions. And just because Rogers only has six picks doesn't mean that any given throw won't be held onto; no quarterback is stupid enough to think that.

You guys keep saying that Rogers = no picks so he's not as valuable, but I'll take a cover corner who defends pass after pass over a once-in-a-while pick any day of the week.

[da#1skinsfan]

You're missing something very key in your assessment:

Defensed passes, or passes that aren't thrown at all due to tight coverage, kill drives MUCH more often than interceptions. And just because Rogers only has six picks doesn't mean that any given throw won't be held onto; no quarterback is stupid enough to think that.

You guys keep saying that Rogers = no picks so he's not as valuable, but I'll take a cover corner who defends pass after pass over a once-in-a-while pick any day of the week.

Sure if thats the case, its a judgement call. However (and I dont know this) show me where Carlos has defended more passes than Hall?

To your other point, I'll take an interception over 2 passes "not thrown" or passes "defensed" anyday. Nevermind the fact that if a guy is in position to defend a pass, he should also often be in position to get an INT. Thats not the case with Carlos, facts are facts, he drops INT's, period. Until he corrects that he wont ever be considered a top 10 corner.

[SIXX99]

Interceptions. He is a threat.

If you throw at Hall, it may equal six for the Redskins.

If you throw at Carlos, it may be incomplete.

The same reason that Deion is regarded as one of, if not the best ever.

Hall is a game-changer. Carlos is just a corner.

[CrypticVillain]

Might be a pretty bold statement, but I got a feeling I might be right.

Rogers will not even get an offer next year from the Redskins because I think that Tryon or Barnes will have a good year. If that happens the Redskins will not hesitate to let him go. If I am wrong, then Carlos Rogers will get the same amount, if not more, than Hall.

[wwSEANd]

Sure if thats the case, its a judgement call. However (and I dont know this) show me where Carlos has defended more passes than Hall?

NFL.com defensive back stats, passes defended

Carlos defended 26 passes (the league leader was 27), tied for 3rd place.

Hall defended 10, tied for 66th place.

Carlos also got targeted more then almost any other player in the league last year. i don't know where that is documented, but i am sure it's correct. despite being thrown at a TON last season, he gave up very little.

i remember in the first Cowboy game when they thought they'd jumpstart their offense in the second half by throwing to TO 3 (4?) times in a row. Carlos didn't allow a catch. that's exactly what you want from a #1 CB. he makes very few mistakes and can almost always be counted on to contain (if not eliminate entirely) the opponent's #1 WR, even elites.

[CrypticVillain]

Carlos also got targeted more then almost any other player in the league last year.

I don't think that is a good thing. I rather have Asomugha who only got thrown at maybe 10 times the whole season.

All in all, I like our CB's this year. We can go 5 deep with any 5 WR set.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

I was a Carlos "doubter" for a long period of time but I have to give him credit for growing as a player.

But with that being said, I still don't think he's the elite shutdown corner some of you are making him out to be.

I think he's very good (other than his hands) but not "elite".

Frankly, I think Deangelo has much more upside than Carlos.

[RandyHolt]

Passes defended stats dont reflect percentages. And they also dont reflect the calls by the defensive coordinator. Playing off receivers will kill passes defended. Press/tight man; you get a ton. Like against Dallas.

If Carlos is so great in coverage (i am not saying he isnt) why on earth did Williams and now Blache have him playing so far off the receiver, despite having stud FS coverage over the top?

Hall is one of those guys that can make things happen. Being out of position yet catching a ball behind him. At some point, its not luck. Carlos cant catch the one straight at him. At some point, its not bad luck. Our defense so needs a guy that can get us some turnovers. I bet our collective turnovers under GW/Blache must be near the lowest in the league.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

If Carlos is so great in coverage (i am not saying he isnt) why on earth did Williams and now Blache have him playing so far off the receiver, despite having stud FS coverage over the top?

I suspect the coaches were concerned about Rogers getting beat deep.

And I also share those concerns.

[Haynesworth_Mancrush]

Playmakers get paid a premium, not someone who can just stick to their assignments. Hall showed discipline and that he can stick on his man. Hall will win you a game, and won't lose won either. Rogers will flat out not win you a game.

Denver's Eddie Royal might have something to say about that.

[wwSEANd]

I don't think that is a good thing. I rather have Asomugha who only got thrown at maybe 10 times the whole season.

who's talking about Asomugha? he had perhaps the best season by a CB ever last year. i'd rather have Juggernaut from the X-Men comics for our right tackle, but that doesn't make him relevant to this discussion.

anyways, being thrown at a lot isn't Carlos' fault. nor is it really a bad thing! he can't control whether they decide to throw at him. what he CAN control is how he defends against it, and he does that better than all but a handful of guys in the NFL. it's a bad idea to throw it at him if you need a completion on 3rd and long, so how is it a knock on Carlos if they stupidly attempt it? we can expect those attempt numbers to decrease next season anyway, as offensive coordinators wise up to his coverage skills.

put it this way: would you rather they throw at him 7 times a game or throw 2 at him and 5 at Smoot? it's seven pass plays either way, and frankly i'm GLAD they're throwing at one of the best coverage corners in the league. hell, throw EVERY pass at him and we'd probably have the best pass-defense stats in the league!

anyway, i found those stats i was looking for:

8. Carlos Rogers, Washington Redskins

Season Totals: 105 attempts, 5.69 YPA, 47.62 Forced INC%, 4 TDs, 2 INTs

My two cents: It’s a shame that his playing time was cut down after the acquisition of the horrible DeAngelo Hall, and when Shawn Springs got healthy. I don’t understand how the Redskins could put guys like Hall and Fred Smoot on the field before this guy. Despite being thrown at 105 times (3rd most in NFL) Rogers held his own. His low YPA and high forced incompletion percentage should earn him respect from around the league.

[Justsomeguy]

He has all the respect one can possibly earn for a man with butter fingers. If he eventually learns how to catch imagine how many of those passes defended would be game changers!

[Xero21]

You're missing something very key in your assessment:

Defensed passes, or passes that aren't thrown at all due to tight coverage, kill drives MUCH more often than interceptions.

How does a pass deflection, which merely leads to loss of down, kill a drive more often than an interception, which gives the other team the ball?

What you said doesn't make much sense.

For the record I like Rogers over Hall but I just cannot see where you are coming from.

[Darc Requiem]

Because the front office told both of them they were going to throw bags of money at them and whatever they caught and held on to would be their salary.

I shouldn't have to finish the rest..

That is the funniest post I've seen all week. It's been a long week for me. I needed that laugh. Thanks

[wwSEANd]

How does a pass deflection, which merely leads to loss of down, kill a drive more often than an interception, which gives the other team the ball?

What you said doesn't make much sense.

For the record I like Rogers over Hall but I just cannot see where you are coming from.

i think he's saying that, since defended passes happen so much more often (truly, they are a corner's NUMBER ONE responsibility), that they kill drives more often. i mean, how often do interceptions actually happen? and how often to 3rd-and-long passes go incomplete? i don't really know, but that's probably the point he was making.

i would come at it from a different perspective: which happens more in a given game?

1) a corner blows his assignment, giving up a TD or a drive-saving first down, or

2) a corner picks off a pass.

those two have equal effect for opposite teams, but i bet #1 happens a lot more than #2. if Carlos can prevent #1 from happening to him (and he does, better than almost the whole league), then #2 isn't entirely necessary.

if Hall gets a pick, but blows his assignment 2-3 times, then he's had a net-negative effect on the game. i think all the Carlos supporters are saying is that there is more to a CB than interceptions, and if they can cover as well as Carlos does, then it's worth more than most ballhawk CBs out there.

[Smoot Point Really]

that is REALLY a reach. if you'll remember, (before 2008) we played ALL of our defensive backs off their man. just like we play Landry 20y off the line of scrimmage. you can't blame Carlos for being where he's supposed to be. the underneath passing game was a huge failing of GW's scheme, imo.

Notice it's not called the "Gregg Williams cushion" or the "Redskins cushion" or the "Jerry Gray cushion" or even the "Vinny Cerrato Cushion"... It was called the "Carlos Rogers Cushion" because he was predominantly the one consistently doing it. Landry is a free safety... It doesn't matter what kind of a cushion he gives, rarely is he in man-coverage.

[Smoot Point Really]

Let's stay on topic... Carlos is a Redskin and I'm glad he is... However, he shouldn't be paid as much as DeAngelo Hall because:

1) Hall is younger (by 2.5 years)

2) Hall has two Pro Bowls so far

3) Hall is a playmaker

Carlos is arguably a top 20 CB in this league in terms of coverage, but he is Charles Jones of the Les Boulez when it comes to making plays. Big plays win games... Consistent effort without big plays gets you to 8-8...

Enough said...