JMS Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 The Vatican has admitted that Charles Darwin was on the right track when he claimed that Man descended from apes. A leading official declared yesterday that Darwin’s theory of evolution was compatible with Christian faith, and could even be traced to St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas. “In fact, what we mean by evolution is the world as created by God,” said Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture. The Vatican also dealt the final blow to speculation that Pope Benedict XVI might be prepared to endorse the theory of Intelligent Design, whose advocates credit a “higher power” for the complexities of life. Organisers of a papal-backed conference next month marking the 150th anniversary of Darwin’s On the Origin of Species said that at first it had even been proposed to ban Intelligent Design from the event, as “poor theology and poor science”. Intelligent Design would be discussed at the fringes of the conference at the Pontifical Gregorian University, but merely as a “cultural phenomenon”, rather than a scientific or theological issue, organisers said. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5705331.ece Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Wow is right... Who saw that coming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacase Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Well this should be an interesting thread if the past is any indicator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 You guys think that the fact that the Vatican admits that Darwin was right will influence people enough to get them out of their stone-age thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Great! Now, what will the schools do. That is a shocking turnaround. Might be on the level of the Descartean Compromise although I doubt it will have as much impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoot Point Really Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 "Descending from Apes"... I'll accept the science behind evolution, but that is one of those Darwinian theories I have too hard of a time swallowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 12th Commandment Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 "Descending from Apes"... I'll accept the science behind evolution, but that is one of those Darwinian theories I have too hard of a time swallowing. The thread about the man and his five year old kinda takes the wind out of this line of thought. Actually, I think apes would be a little kinder with their own. I am surprised by this. Watch the chasm between the protestants/evangelicals and the Catholic church get MUCH bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bay Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I am surprised by this. Watch the chasm between the protestants/evangelicals and the Catholic church get MUCH bigger. Sums up my thoughts as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Who gives a ****? Round and round we go with the same arguments... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I thought the Pope already admitted that a while back ago. I don't understand why there are people who think you can't believe in God if you believe in evolution. We got people out there believing that Jesus rode on dinosaurs. (some elected officials too, that's a damn shame) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnhay Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Yeah, I thought it was common knowledge that the Church didn't have any problems with evolution. I don't think the theory says anything about how everything was created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCSaints_fan Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I never thought the RCC had much problem with the ToE. At least not in the 20th century. Gregor Mendel, who is considered the father of modern genetics, was a Catholic priest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel There does come a conflict, however, because the Church's belief in "soul" and how a human soul is different from animal souls. To an evolutionary biologist however, it is all a matter of degree. We are a bit smarter than other great apes, who are a bit smarter than the other mammals, etc. And the view that our behavior is entirely a consequence of instinct and societal pressure, that "choice" is an illusion, would present problem with the Church's view of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidmorals Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church has never really been opposed to biological evolution. Ignored it at times, remained indifferent, and gradually become more accepting of it over the last half century or so. As someone pointed out earlier, it has been mostly protestants that object to biological evolutionary theory so completely. Oh, those silly Baptists... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 Great! Now, what will the schools do. That is a shocking turnaround. Might be on the level of the Descartean Compromise although I doubt it will have as much impact. I think the Pope is catching alot of heat from progressives and moderates for trying to roll back Vatican Councel II reforms. John Paul our previous Pope also activelly rolled back Vatican Councel II reforms, but he was a young man when he became pope and was able to take his time in subtly trying to change/influence the churches direction. Pope Benedict is already 82, and doesn't have that kind of time in trying to erase fifty years of Catholic progress.. I see the Darwin stance as a bone thrown to calm upity mainstream Catholics who are still up in arms over Benidicts "compromise" with unrepentant anti semetic, any VCII troglidites... It's important, It's like when the Vatican apologizing for the Inquisiiton's treatment of Galileo, in 1979!!!.. It's kind of meaningless, but at least in the future we Catholics can say we did it. And who knows some school kid in 2209 might overlook the fact it took the Vatican nearly 400 years to accomplish the task. It's the ongoing need by a religion which constantly takes faith based positions against science and is often wrong. Every few hundred years you have to clean house and admit what most inteligent people already understand. (*) Note the Vatican didn't say Darwin was right. They said "he was on the right track". Which is a significant distinction, just in case PeteMP tries to think this changes my position in our previous discussion. There are huge scientific holes in modern evolutionary thought. modern evolutionary thought is not what darwin described nearly 150 years ago. Darwin's origin of the species was wrong and it's been discarded. Modern evolutionists have significantly rewriten the mechanism of change resulting in evolution. The role Darwin plays is as the father of moving us down the scientific path of evolution. The role of modern evolution as a theory is that it is more right or explains more things than any other competing theory; Evolution remains an active pursuit of science today who continue to try to fill the holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 How hard is it for them to say "God made us Evolve"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Curious. How much weight does Vatican opinion have on Protestant religious thought? Does the Pope's declarations matter to the non Catholic Christian world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 The thread about the man and his five year old kinda takes the wind out of this line of thought. Actually, I think apes would be a little kinder with their own. Actually they're not. Many great ape species are murderous, warlike, even cannibalistic. Chimpanzees especially. Chimps have been observed and filmed many times making war on neighboring chimp groups. They organize attacks, they set ambushes, they even use sticks and other things as weapons. They will coordinate attacks and literally tear their enemies apart for reasons other than food. They will also eat the vanquished. Chimps were thought to be herbivores until Jane Goodall discovered they not only eat meat, they will eat their own, and they will organize hunting parties that will act as a team to hunt monkeys. Gorillas can be warlike among themselves, but not as much as chimpanzees. As to being surprised,, didn't John Paul say almost the same thing about 10 or so years ago? I don't think he officially recognized evolution, but I do believe he said that the church had to reconsider their position on the matter. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 How hard is it for them to say "God made us Evolve"? Very good point. Anyone else watch Nova last night? Fantastic show about the Dover trial a few years ago. I still think ID has a place in schools. Just not at the same level,class, or detail as Darwin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church has never really been opposed to biological evolution. Ignored it at times, remained indifferent, and gradually become more accepting of it over the last half century or so. As someone pointed out earlier, it has been mostly protestants that object to biological evolutionary theory so completely. Oh, those silly Baptists... Actually Pope Pius IX called the first Vatican Council 1869 largely to refute and condemn Darwin's theory of Evolution which came out in 1859 Hence all faithful Christians are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith, particularly if they have been condemned by the Church; and furthermore they are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth." (Vatican Council I) The Vatican called a truce with Evolution in the 1950's. but this goes further than any statement I've seen before on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 12th Commandment Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Actually they're not. Many great ape species are murderous, warlike, even cannibalistic. Chimpanzees especially. Chimps have been observed and filmed many times making war on neighboring chimp groups. They organize attacks, they set ambushes, they even use sticks and other things as weapons. They will coordinate attacks and literally tear their enemies apart for reasons other than food. They will also eat the vanquished. Chimps were thought to be herbivores until Jane Goodall discovered they not only eat meat, they will eat their own, and they will organize hunting parties that will act as a team to hunt monkeys. Gorillas can be warlike among themselves, but not as much as chimpanzees. As to being surprised,, didn't John Paul say almost the same thing about 10 or so years ago? I don't think he officially recognized evolution, but I do believe he said that the church had to reconsider their position on the matter. ~Bang I said their own and I meant their own child. I was aware they can be warlike, as can we of course. I don't believe any great ape kills their own young. That's what I meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidmorals Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Uh, JMS, I didn't see any mention of biological evolutionary theory in that quote. I'm aware that Vatican I was called in part to see what they should say about biological evolution, and that it was probably the intent of many (most?) to deny it, but I didn't think they actually did. They just said vague reiterations of what the faithful are supposed to do, like not believe things they are forbidden to believe. I could be way off base here, but it seems like they went with a 'wait-and-see' approach and let the faithful decide for themselves, even if the leaning may have been heavily against biological evolutionary theory. But this is all based on what i remember from a long time ago and my impressions of Catholicism up until now, so maybe I'm not seeing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stupidmorals Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I still think ID has a place in schools. Just not at the same level,class, or detail as Darwin. ID may have a place in schools, but only in religion and/or philosophy classes. I really can't see how one can classify it as a science, as there really isn't anything scientific about it. Besides, we already have a scientific discipline which describes complexity; it's called Complex Systems Theory. And I don't mean to hit-and-run, but I already overslept this morning and I'm late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I thought the Pope already admitted that a while back ago. I don't understand why there are people who think you can't believe in God if you believe in evolution. We got people out there believing that Jesus rode on dinosaurs. (some elected officials too, that's a damn shame) Yeah, I thought it was common knowledge that the Church didn't have any problems with evolution. I don't think the theory says anything about how everything was created. How hard is it for them to say "God made us Evolve"?That's the problem though, because that is not what is taught.Where Christianity divides with main stream science is in the fact that science teaches that evolution is a process of random mutations. So, in that argument, there is no resolution or compatibility between the church and science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 This is only a big deal in that it indicates that the Pope isn't going to move backwards on what the previous Pope had said about evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I dont think it matters where it's taught. As long as it's not taught as false. Also, lots of non scientific topics are taught during science class in various parts of the state. I can remember taking time out of a science class to learn about local civil war history in Leesburg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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