China Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 7 black Houston firefighters sue, say city exam biased By CAROLYN FEIBEL Seven black firefighters are suing the city, contending that the Houston Fire Department’s test for officer promotions adversely affects blacks. “This is systemic discrimination,” said the firefighters’ attorney, Dennis Thompson. “Selection rates for African-Americans are abysmally smaller than for white candidates.” City Council on Wednesday delayed consideration of a request by the city attorney’s office to spend up to $197,000 on an outside law firm to defend the city against the federal lawsuit, which was filed in August. The council is expected to take up the request next week. Firefighters trying to attain the rank of captain and above in the Houston Fire Department must take a 100-question multiple-choice test. Numerous studies show that blacks as a group do less well on high-stakes tests, Thompson said. He said fire departments should use cognitive tests only as a pass-fail benchmark and also should focus on performance exercises and other criteria. “We don’t do as well on these multiple-choice tests,” said Capt. Otis Jordan, president of the Houston Black Firefighters Association. Jordan and the HBFA are not part of the suit. “I compare fighting a fire, riding an apparatus, to playing football. Your best athlete might not be the straight-A student.” Click on the link for the full article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 “We don’t do as well on these multiple-choice tests,” said Capt. Otis Jordan, president of the Houston Black Firefighters Association. Jordan and the HBFA are not part of the suit. “I compare fighting a fire, riding an apparatus, to playing football. Your best athlete might not be the straight-A student.” Did the President of the Houston Black Firefighters Assoc just say that black folks aren't good at school, but they're good at playing football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhouse Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Gimme a break! I myself hate standardized tests but stop with the "Blacks don’t do as well on these multiple-choice tests". It just shows how much of a moron you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkleMotion Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 If you're looking to stop discrimination, tests like these are exactly what you need. The test doesn't know what color the person taking it is. It's natural to blame the test for your own poor performance, but you can't sue and claim that it's discrimination. The only thing it discriminates is the smartest candidates from the not so smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedlightG20 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 “We don’t do as well on these multiple-choice tests,” said Capt. Otis Jordan, president of the Houston Black Firefighters Association. Jordan and the HBFA are not part of the suit. “I compare fighting a fire, riding an apparatus, to playing football. Your best athlete might not be the straight-A student.” "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."- Martin Luther King, Jr So I guess this guy is saying that MLK was wrong? Shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskins59 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 It depends on what questions were asked. If those multiple questions were, say, testing your IQ, that's discriminatory. However, if the questions were about procedures/actions that firefighters need to follow, then that's not discriminatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Bait Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 maybe they should do better on the test. I agree with sparklemotion....multiple choice test is color blind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stophovr6 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 LOL. This is like that time I heard a feminist talking about how the physical fire tests were discriminatory towards women because woman can't do all the things men can do physically. When asked what should be done about it she said the standards should be lowered. Absolutely ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Did the President of the Houston Black Firefighters Assoc just say that black folks aren't good at school, but they're good at playing football? That's how it read to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 If you're looking to stop discrimination, tests like these are exactly what you need.The test doesn't know what color the person taking it is. It's natural to blame the test for your own poor performance, but you can't sue and claim that it's discrimination. The only thing it discriminates is the smartest candidates from the not so smart. It's an interesting debate. Been going on for years. (Decades, I bet.) For example, it's been shown for some time that blacks don't do as well on the SAT as other groups. This causes a lot of people to say that the test is biased. But is it proof? IMO, it's possible for society to go too far in their efforts to identify and counteract racism. The way I think of it is: When you get to the point where a disparity in results is considered proof of racism, then you're no longer guaranteeing equal opportunity, you're guaranteeing equal results. I'd agree that when (I seem to remember that this was an actual discrimination case) no black firefighter has ever attained the rank of Captain in the entire history of the Chicago Fire Department, even though blacks make up umpty-ump percentage of the lower ranks, and have for generations, then yep, that statistic, all by itself, is a pretty strong case that racism is involved. OTOH, if (fictional scenario) blacks make up 17.3% of the population, but only make up 14% of the Aerospace Engineers at Acme Aerospace, then does that prove that Acme is discriminating? Or does it mean that blacks tend not to major in aerospace engineering? IMO, that's where the dreaded quotas come from: If any organization can be sued for discrimination, and if all it takes to prove discrimination is that the org failed to achieve three-decimal-place compliance with numerical targets, then of course the company's going to do whatever it takes to make darned sure they hit that target exactly. But back to the tests and so forth: If, say, blacks don't score as well on the SAT. Does that prove that the test is biased? Or does it prove that, say, blacks tend to get short-changed by their High Schools? Does applying a "fudge factor" to the student's score, based on race, to make the average score for (race x) equal the average score for (race y) really fix a problem? Or does it simply push the problem on to "the next grade"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Did the President of the Houston Black Firefighters Assoc just say that black folks aren't good at school, but they're good at playing football? unfreakingreal!! i bet MLK is turning in his grave. does he want us to make the test easier so that they can pass it? seems like i want my CAPTAIN to be smart in every way possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 “We don’t do as well on these multiple-choice tests,” said Capt. Otis Jordan, president of the Houston Black Firefighters Association. Jordan and the HBFA are not part of the suit. “I compare fighting a fire, riding an apparatus, to playing football. Your best athlete might not be the straight-A student.” Click on the link for the full article It might also prove that best athlete, or best person who is good at "fighting a fire, riding an apparatus, to playing football." does not always make best captains either.... I do not know if they Captain selection is solely based on the score of this test. If it is then yes the system is flawed not because it discriminates against blacks but because it discounts the non-measureable like leadership and stuff like that... But I also dont agree with that this should be a pass/fail test. Granted that a person who scored 75 can be better candidate that a person who got a 90 on the test but it also the person needs to be rewarded or given an edge if the person outperforms the minimum. Like if the person is so dedicated to the work that he showed up a hour early and take a hour late everyday, should be award and given an edge compared to person who clocks in and out on the dot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I'd like to see some of the questions. They could be trick questions like: Mayonnaise is awesome: a. true b. false Celine Dion makes terrific music: a. true b. false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE OUTSIDER Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I'm just wondering, does any of you know the questions that are asked on the test? I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I'm just wondering, does any of you know the questions that are asked on the test? I don't. No, but if its a standarized test does it matter? everyone is asked the same set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Maybe the test ask you to list your favorite Friends episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsBry Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Perhaps more questions like this. The roof, the roof, the roof is on... a) top of the house a lake c) suspension d) fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Perhaps more questions like this.The roof, the roof, the roof is on... a) top of the house a lake c) suspension d) fire Oh me me me!!! (Waves hand frantically) The correct answer is d) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsBry Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Oh me me me!!! (Waves hand frantically)The correct answer is d) You are correct sir. And to anyone that says it could be A or D, I reference you to this... Archibald Leach, Bernard Schwartz and Lucille LeSueur Who are three people who have never been in my kitchen? While it is true, it's not THE correct answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Maybe the test ask you to list your favorite Friends episodes. :rotflmao::rotflmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I'm just wondering, does any of you know the questions that are asked on the test? I don't. Probably not. OTOH, I'll point out that the plaintiffs aren't claiming that one or more questions are biased. They're claiming that the mere fact that it's a test is bias. (Well, that, and the assumed fact that the people they represent aren't scoring as well as others.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMarcus1914 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Standardized test are biase in nature. It's common knowlegde that the test are to exclude rather than include participants. If you can't pass it, then you aren't qualified. But they know the game, you just have to figure out how to win. Shoot the LSAT is biase. I murdered that test. But I never speak like the language in the test. I see most people on this site are from one side of the arguement. And unfortunately have no empathy about the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Standardized test are biase in nature. It's common knowlegde that the test are to exclude rather than include participants. If you can't pass it, then you aren't qualified. But they know the game, you just have to figure out how to win. Shoot the LSAT is biase. I murdered that test. But I never speak like the language in the test. I see most people on this site are from one side of the arguement. And unfortunately have no empathy about the situation. You applying to be my biase? (Sorry. Had to.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmonkforHOF Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 wow. Guess what? white firefighters, latino firefighters, asian firefighter and indian firefighters don't get promoted if they fail the test. If white's do better on it, and your pissed, study harder. Someone should smack some sense into these dumb pricks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Hahahah - oh god. STFU and study for the test damn it. This is one of my pet peeves. I am the type of person who still thinks their is a ton of racism and discrimination in the US. But its people like this who cry about irrelevant non-racist **** that makes white people completely tune out other, clearly racist things. Focus on real racism and forget this ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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