#21Taylor4Ever Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I don't think there is a person here who will say our O-line was spectacular. We all know that it needs an overhaul and was partially to blame. All we are asking for is an open QB competition. If JC wins, great! He is our starting QB and I'll support him. But if he can't pull it off, then it's time to bring in someone who can get the job done. Someone else posted that every other player in the league is expected to compete for their position. Why isn't/shouldn't JC be expected to do the same thing? I thought Campbell did earn his job fair and square. I mean I don't know about you, but I surely don't want to see us go backwards by starting Collins. And I certainly don't want this team to start all over again by bringing in a WAC QB. We're trying a new way around here, it's called patience. A few years ago we were overpaying free agents, now we're doing it the right way and people still aren't happy. Campbell deserves one more season, which would be year 2 under Zorn. If he doesn't pan out, it's time to look elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandymac27 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I only question those who refuse to see BOTH sides. It seems easier to blame Campbell, but none of the Campbell Haters even see the O-Line as a remote possibility for the issues. That's ignorant no matter how you slice it and dice it. OMG. Do you not see that you are the one who can't see BOTH sides? I admit the O-line sucked donkey balls, but that is not the only problem we have with this team. Unfortunately, JC is also a problem that needs addressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chow184 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Yup. People bashed Saunders even though he had one of the most high flying passing attacks in the league. Trent Green eclipsed a yards per pass average of 7.2 in each of his healthy seasons under Saunders, he even hit above 8.0 in a couple. Same with Collins, in the few games he played last year, he dramatically improved this teams yards per pass by 1.9 (Campbell had 6.5 and Collins had 8.4).But I'm sure its because coaches hate JC and don't call deep passes for him. I'm sure there was no valid reason to why a proven NFL coordinator wouldn't call deep shots for a third year first round pick in his second year in the system :doh: when green was in "his" prime he had an OL with 2 should be HoFers/1 perennial pro bowler 2 pro bowl RB's Priest/LJ a will be HoF TE good role players at WR Eddie Kennison/dante hall the HC was also Dick Vermiel who was HC of the STL rams who were the greatest show on turf. the rams did great things with saunder as well but he was under martz and vermiel in STL. looking back Al Saunders looks like product of the system as well as trent green. the system being vermiel and an outstanding group of skill players and OL. that rams offense was so wonderful this year wasn't it?oh and those 06&07 redskins offenses were unstoppable. looking at trent greens career outside of KC it's fairly mediocre. I could have 7.0 YPA in that old KC offense. why does campbell being a 1st round pick have anything to do with it?campbell is in his 1st year in zorn's scheme not 2nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Bailey Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Yup. People bashed Saunders even though he had one of the most high flying passing attacks in the league. You don't think KC's perennially stellar offensive line had anything to do with that? I do. How's he doing in St. Louis? RB-check QB-check WR-check OL- crappy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemoveSnyder Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 BTW, OP nice work on the stats. I looked at them but maybe missed your thesis. I saw Kerry Collins in there with Campbell on a stat, but Collins and TEN are paloff bound, yes. they have homefield? 1st round bye? (question marks cause i don't know). So maybe there are some exceptions to the rule for those stats, when it comes to the overall team performance? _ To the Campbell debate, my last post just picked out one play from one game this year. By no means an indictment. So in that play you have the WR responsible to get their routes open whether one guy's route was 'mudding waters' a diversion and the other was to stretch the field for the intended target. You got the O-line to protect for prolly as much as 5 Mississippi and then the QB to find the target and hit it. So yes everyone has an assignment and perhaps everyone on that play just didn't get their job done. But the thing about Campbell I love is his scrambling ability, the thing I hate, I really don't see any emotion from him...not like the Favre leap into O-lineman's arms or Matt Ryan fist pumping or even that cool, take charge on the huddle that Delhomme does. I hope we get some better QB play next year regardless who is doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandymac27 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I thought Campbell did earn his job fair and square. I mean I don't know about you, but I surely don't want to see us go backwards by starting Collins. And I certainly don't want this team to start all over again by bringing in a WAC QB. We're trying a new way around here, it's called patience. A few years ago we were overpaying free agents, now we're doing it the right way and people still aren't happy. Campbell deserves one more season, which would be year 2 under Zorn. If he doesn't pan out, it's time to look elsewhere. I'm not saying START anyone other than JC right off the bat. I'm saying open QB competition and THEN whoever wins it should start. And for the record, we sure didn't go backwards when our backup QB played last year when JC got hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketCitySkins Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 So we never ran routes past 20 yards 4 times in a game? WCO is designed for short passes, but the long ones are there. JC looks deep, doesn't see Moss 10 yards ahead of anyone, so he drops it short. More like JC looked deep and saw Moss double teamed and dropped it short. Moss was our only downfield threat and he was always covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Vishal, in your opinion, is YPA a measurement of: A: The QB's ability or; B: The QB's ability plus -- the quality of his receivers, the quality of his protection, the quality of the playcalling, the quality of the scheme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Right Hog...everyone posts stats and I never do. You have me all figured out. Only problem with that, ES keeps track of all our posts. I only question those who refuse to see BOTH sides. It seems easier to blame Campbell, but none of the Campbell Haters even see the O-Line as a remote possibility for the issues. That's ignorant no matter how you slice it and dice it. Grow up man, and stop playing this holier than thou game with me. That's it? Your telling me to "grow up?" :doh: Tell the truth, and you won't get called out. You refuse to debate ANY stats that remotely go against the deficiency's the QB repeatadly brings to the table. All you do is push them aside for the latest excuse you can find to defend him, or else you question the "football intellegence" of the poster that dared to question JC. (WHO'S playing the "holier than thou" game again?). And I'm FAR from the first to respond to you on this. But maybe we ALL need to grow up huh? :doh: Most of the "haters", as you so arrogantly call them for having the gall to debate the glaring problems Jason brings to the table, agree that there's far reaching problems and massive dirth in talent right through this roster, let alone on offense. But you continually contradict yourself by accusing others of not accepting other aspects of the offenses failings, while you yourself just make excuse after excuse for Jason. And when did I say everyone posts stats other than you? :doh: Your delusions are getting as bad as your excuses and insults. Who needs to "grow up" now? Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 BTW, OPnice work on the stats. I looked at them but maybe missed your thesis. I saw Kerry Collins in there with Campbell on a stat, but Collins and TEN are paloff bound, yes. they have homefield? 1st round bye? (question marks cause i don't know). So maybe there are some exceptions to the rule for those stats, when it comes to the overall team performance? I think absolutely there are exceptions to the rule, there always are. But at some point you can't ignore the mountain of evidence in order to focus on the smallest exceptions. Well you can I guess- but you will end up losing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santana_Fan Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 it really is sad how some people lack objectivity and claim they have it. Only to post a partisan view Exactly. Commentators and analysts have said it time and time again...we CALL plays that are drawn up short of the first down. They've said it plenty of times in the 49ers game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 [B: The QB's ability plus -- the quality of his receivers, the quality of his protection, the quality of the playcalling, the quality of the scheme? And are those things cause or effect of good QB play? You could argue- extremely easily- that those 4 things depend on the QB, not vice-versa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chow184 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Interesting post Vishal- appreciate the legwork. I wish we could have adult conversations about the team and about our players- but for most its impossible. Some of you really need to grow up or spend some time away from the board. I can't imagine that people act the goat this much in person. My question would be how the other QB's in the WCO system ranked, i.e. Donovan McNabb. It's accepted that the purest form of the WCO that exists is run by Reid. And I'm not sure why people are so quick to dismiss Hasselbecks' YPP. Seems like a very valid comparison. http://www.nfl.com/players/donovanmcnabb/profile?id=MCN017517 McNabb actually had a 5.9 YPA in his first year starting for the eagles he never broke 6.7 YPA til his 7th season in the league,2004 in which he got TO. Mcnabb had an 8.3 YPA in 04, a ridiculous improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santana_Fan Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 More like JC looked deep and saw Moss double teamed and dropped it short. Moss was our only downfield threat and he was always covered. Another fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 http://www.nfl.com/players/donovanmcnabb/profile?id=MCN017517McNabb actually had a 5.9 YPA in his first year starting for the eagles he never broke 6.7 YPA til his 7th season in the league,2004 in which he got TO. Mcnabb had an 8.3 YPA in 04, a ridiculous improvement. Interesting - pretty clear evidence of what TO can do for your team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#21Taylor4Ever Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Holy crap dude. Every post you claim it is "us" that is making the excuses but do you read you're own posts. If it isn't the playcalling it's the Oline. Yes, everything is the problem, but the way you are going at it you are basically putting no blame on JC. You're not reading MY posts then. I've already said 100s of times, that if Campbell doesn't get it after one more season, then maybe he's not our guy. Of course Campbell isn't free of blame, but he's also not the guy who should take all the blame. Campbell isn't the reason he's the 4th most sacked QB in the league. Campbell isn't the reason we're one of the worst teams in dropped passes. He does hold the ball too long at times, he also needs to ignore the coaches and take more risks. All of this will come in 09 or it won't, and if not, we need to go another direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Campbell isn't the reason he's the 4th most sacked QB in the league. Campbell isn't the reason we're one of the worst teams in dropped passes. Does anyone have stats on dropped passes? And who were the 3 most sacked QBs in the league and how do they compare with Campbell's numbers? Just general questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeueRedskinWelle Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 More like JC looked deep and saw Moss double teamed and dropped it short. Moss was our only downfield threat and he was always covered. Alright, I can't argue that. However, over the course of the season and with a running game we had, there's no way defenses could afford to have 2 people looking Moss's way the entire game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chow184 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Interesting - pretty clear evidence of what TO can do for your team I'd say more evidence of what a game breaker can do for your team,but gamebreakers are few and far between and that certain one is a headcase. moss can be one but he's erratic in his play. Moss having dropped a crucial 3rd down pass in the 9ers game that could have gone for huge yardage. campbell had 2 deep balls dropped by moss in the dallas@skins game this year which really hurt as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 And are those things cause or effect of good QB play? You could argue- extremely easily- that those 4 things depend on the QB, not vice-versa No you can't logically argue that. Those factors interact to form a whole. But, we all should have learned in basic math that in order to measure something , it has to be isolated. You are looking at a stat that reflects the efficiency of the passing game, a team stat, not the efficiency of the quarterback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#21Taylor4Ever Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 That's it? Your telling me to "grow up?" :doh:Tell the truth, and you won't get called out. You refuse to debate ANY stats that remotely go against the deficiency's the QB repeatadly brings to the table. All you do is push them aside for the latest excuse you can find to defend him, or else you question the "football intellegence" of the poster that dared to question JC. (WHO'S playing the "holier than thou" game again?). And I'm FAR from the first to respond to you on this. But maybe we ALL need to grow up huh? :doh: Most of the "haters", as you so arrogantly call them for having the gall to debate the glaring problems Jason brings to the table, agree that there's far reaching problems and massive dirth in talent right through this roster, let alone on offense. But you continually contradict yourself by accusing others of not accepting other aspects of the offenses failings, while you yourself just make excuse after excuse for Jason. And when did I say everyone posts stats other than you? :doh: Your delusions are getting as bad as your excuses and insults. Who needs to "grow up" now? Hail. If you don't think I argue stats, we should stop debating this topic with one another. There are other people on this board who engage in healthy debates, you are not one of them. It's funny how you say I make excuses for Campbell, yet you make excuses for the O-Line, receivers, and Zorn. Or lemme guess, you're not making excuses because your argument is legit, only I'm making excuses?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeueRedskinWelle Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Misread. but a ton of his sacks could have been avoided by simply throwing the ball away. He makes his already bad Oline look worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#21Taylor4Ever Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Does anyone have stats on dropped passes?And who were the 3 most sacked QBs in the league and how do they compare with Campbell's numbers? Just general questions Garrard, Cassel, Big Ben. As for the dropped stats, it was posted in one of the other 200 Campbell threads. I remember clicking on the link and we were 14th in dropped passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 It's funny how you say I make excuses for Campbell, yet you make excuses for the O-Line, receivers, and Zorn. So can we call you a Moss/Heyer/Zorn HATER? Or would that be juvenille and dumb? .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskins59 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Joe Montana: 7.5 y/a in his career. In fact averaged 9.1 in 1989 Steve Young: 8.0 y/a. Matt Hasselbeck: 7.0 Y/A. Jeff Garcia: 6.9 Y/A Donovan McCnabb: 6.8 Y/A Brett Favre: 7.0 Y/A In comparison, Campbell has 6.4 y/a. These are all WCO QB's btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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