No Excuses Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Yards per pass is a stat that does not get much emphasis when calculating the QB rating by the NFL calculation formula. Completion percentage is one that gets the most emphasis, which is why QB’s with high completion percentages and the number of INTs are always the ones with higher passer ratings. But when you separately compare QB numbers with yards per pass, it paints a much clearer picture and gives a better understanding of how well a QB did. The top 10 QB’s who had the highest yards per pass attempt had more than 10 INTs each. Chad Pennington is the only anomaly as he only threw 7 INTs. But not only did these guys throw more INTs but they also threw significantly more TD’s. Out of the top 10 QB’s who had the highest yards per pass, only 4 threw less than 20 TD’s. Chad Pennington with 19, Delhomme with 15, Ryan with 16 and Schaub with 15 ( keep in mind that Ryan is a rookie and Schaub missed 5 games of the year with injuries). The rest of the QB’s all threw for more than 25 TD’s, with three of them throwing for over 30. All the QB’s in the top 10 of yards per pass attempt had pass ratings above 85. Only three had ratings below 90, one being a rookie(Matt Ryan). Clearly shows that there is a high correlation between how ballsy a QB is and how many plays he can make if he attempts to throw the ball downfield. This is the company Jason Campbell belonged in this season: For yards per pass, Campbell ranked in the league along with players like: Tyler Thigpen: 6.2 Dan Orvlosky: 6.3 Seneca Wallace: 6.3 Jason Campbell: 6.4 Kerry Collins: 6.4 Kyle Orton: 6.4 Jamarcus Russell: 6.4 7 out of 10 players who had the least INT’s in the league had yards per pass of less than 6.6. The three who didn’t were Jeff Garcia, Chad Pennington and Shaun Hill (with averages of 7.2, 7.7 and 7.1 respectively). If you fail to challenge defenses with a vertical passing attack, you won’t be getting picked off, but you won’t be helping your team win. For the season Campbell ranked within the top 10 in the league for passing attempts. Him and David Gerrard were the only QB’s to throw for less than 20 TD’s in the whole top 10. Granted Campbell had the least INT’s out of all them, he also had the worst yards per pass average. The passing attempts were there, but the production wasn't. Why did our offense struggle so much. A lot had to do with not getting first downs and drives stalling. How much of this can be attributed to Campbell? Out of all the QB’s in the league, Campbell was the 9th worst on third downs. The QB’s in the top 10 of lowest third down completion rate all had yards per pass of less than 6.4, besides Jamarcus Russell who was only .2 above everyone else. Campbell was ranked with the following guys in this category: Tyler Thigpen, Jamarcus Russell, Kyle Orton, Seneca Wallace, Marc Bulger, Derek Anderson, Dan Orvlosky, Ryan Fitzpatrick Before people start bringing up the lack of talent and offensive line excuses, consider this: are we as bad as Detroit, Kansas City, Oakland, Seattle, Cleveland and Cincinatti? Because when you break down Campbell’s numbers, he ranks with the QB’s of those several teams. I’m not a member of the “Cult of Colt”, but the numbers posted by Campbell this season can provided to this team by any below average QB in the league. I’m not saying he won’t improve, but those who expect significant results might be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chow184 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 you also forgot to mention in your stats that zorn doesn't attack downfield so campbells YPA will be fairly low compared to anyone else in a more normal passing attack. this thread is worthless and for what it's worth you can't take chances downfield when you're coach is calling short passing plays. every week the announcers and play by play people would remark how zorn never seriously challenged people with deep passing plays. there was a point last week were we had 4 WR's on the field and ALL of them ran short routes. I don't think campbell is a great QB by anymeans but I certainly do believe zorn handcuffed his playcalling a bit. if having colt play meant zorn uncuffing the offense I'd be all for it. All I really want to see though is campbell given free reign in a legit NFL offense. people are calling for his head when he's playing in a kiddy size west coast offense that rarely goes vertical. the only time zorn legitimately attacked deep was off of playaction. so you sort of knew the deep ball was coming on defense if you saw playaction. I felt like I was watching a conservative gibbs offense,run-run-pass. for the love of god that crap gets old. it's like he's play calling just to get into a ****ing 3rd and short situation instead of trying to get a first down or TD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
“Misdirection” Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I think most of it is the fact that we run a WCO which emphasizes short passes. Add in that it's our first season in the system and I think the yards per attempt is going to be small. :2cents: But there is some truth to it that JC doesn't take as many chances as other quarterbacks. PS thanks for putting in some time to make the thread. Better than ones with no stats to back it up at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IbleedBnG83 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I think a lot of the offense falls on the coaching this season. But at the same time, JC doesn't go out and make big plays. Next year is do or die for JC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted January 1, 2009 Author Share Posted January 1, 2009 you also forgot to mention in your stats that zorn doesn't attack downfield so campbells YPA will be fairly low compared to anyone else in a more normal passing attack. this thread is worthless Normal passing attack? What do you think Zorn runs :doh: Matt Hassleback posted a yards per pass average above 7.0 consistently over his career in Seattle. Zorn brought the same system here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#21Taylor4Ever Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I think most of it is the fact that we run a WCO which emphasizes short passes. Add in that it's our first season in the system and I think the yards per attempt is going to be small. :2cents:But there is some truth to it that JC doesn't take as many chances as other quarterbacks. PS thanks for putting in some time to make the thread. Better than ones with no stats to back it up at all. :applause::applause::applause::applause::applause: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire3fighter4 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Next year is do or die for JC. Campbell has been discussed to death on this forum, and this thread doesn't really have any new info(try doing a search for some previous threads) Bottom line, IBB's comment is the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonSway Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 WCO doesnt say that you cant throw the ball down field... Zorny does. hopefully next year our terrible route running draft picks will be elevated to deep route runners and we throw 4-8 deep passes per game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhymenocerous Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Good thread. Comparing Zorn's system with Hasselbeck and Campbell shows some of Campbell's passing deficiencies and lack of big play ability. The coach calls the play and the QB completes it. It is up to Campbell to make the big play and find the right receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chow184 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Normal passing attack? What do you think Zorn runs :doh: Matt Hassleback posted a yards per pass average above 7.0 consistently over his career in Seattle. Zorn brought the same system here mike holmgrem called plays in seattle and it was HOLMGREMS SYSTEM not zorn's in seattle :doh: Holmgrem also aired it out more and actually tried to mix in intermediate and deep routes. are you actually trying to say zorn ran a typical NFL passing attack?that the redskins passing attack wasn't gimped by constant short routes and lack of deep routes? the only time zorn let campbell go deep was off of playaction for crying out loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Normal passing attack? What do you think Zorn runs :doh: Matt Hassleback posted a yards per pass average above 7.0 consistently over his career in Seattle. Zorn brought the same system here As much as I appreciate your research and would hope it can find its place in the debate, it would seem that ours is a futile quest of reason against fear and irrationality. Just be thankful that your name isn't Galileo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskins59 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 mike holmgrem called plays in seattle and it was HOLMGREMS SYSTEM not zorn's in seattle :doh:Holmgrem also aired it out more and actually tried to mix in intermediate and deep routes. are you actually trying to say zorn ran a typical NFL passing attack?that the redskins passing attack wasn't gimped by constant short routes and lack of deep routes? the only time zorn let campbell go deep was off of playaction for crying out loud. And those playactions didn't work either, which means that Campbell can't make deep throws, period. Also, you're making a huge assumption here. How do you know for a fact that it's Zorn who has refused to call deep throws? For all we know, it could be Campbell who refuses to throw deep because of his inability to see open receivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhymenocerous Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 The only time Campbell had the balls to go deep was off playaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskins59 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 The only time Campbell had the balls to go deep was off playaction. In other words, Campbell can't throw deep off playaction. I can count the number of times Campbell has gone deep and scored/allowed us to score. Let's see: 1. The New Orleans game(throw to moss) 2. The Detroit game 3. The first Cowboys game where Moss made Newman his ***** I think those are the only three deep bombs Campbell has made all season. Seems to me like it's Campbell that's the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#21Taylor4Ever Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 The only time Campbell had the balls to go deep was off playaction. :bsflag: I think people tend to forget the QB doesn't call the plays. If Campbell called his own plays, we'd probably throw 4-5 deep balls a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHOPSkins Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 you also forgot to mention in your stats that zorn doesn't attack downfield so campbells YPA will be fairly low compared to anyone else in a more normal passing attack. this thread is worthless..... So all those check downs are by Zorns design?BS JC is too conservative because.... JC is inaccurate....that hurts YPP It also hurts WRs that have to stand and take hits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#21Taylor4Ever Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 In other words, Campbell can't throw deep off playaction. I can count the number of times Campbell has gone deep and scored/allowed us to score. Let's see:1. The New Orleans game(throw to moss) 2. The Detroit game 3. The first Cowboys game where Moss made Newman his ***** I think those are the only three deep bombs Campbell has made all season. Seems to me like it's Zorn that's the problem. I fixed your mistake for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 As much as I appreciate your research and would hope it can find its place in the debate, it would seem that ours is a futile quest of irrationality against common sense and reason. Just be thankful that your name isn't McCarthy fixed it Just curious, were your ancestors church leaders in 17th centry Salem, MA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamRollingRiggo Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 you also forgot to mention in your stats that zorn doesn't attack downfield so campbells YPA will be fairly low compared to anyone else in a more normal passing attack. this thread is worthless and for what it's worth Nice excuse that you are making for Jason Campbell. Lots of that going on around here. If you weren't a Redskins fan and you were objectively looking at Jason Campbell and his stats, I bet that you would have a different opinion about him. To be honest with you, this thread isn't worthless, its actually stating facts.....facts that people on here are still disputing and making excuses about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskins59 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I fixed your mistake for you. Assumption, assumption, assumption. Prove to me that it's playcalling that's the problem and not campbell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHOPSkins Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 ...I think people tend to forget the QB doesn't call the plays......So is Zorn screaming in JCs ear....."Throw to the Safety Valve?" Let me ask you a question What was Zorn correcting in JC on the sidelines during the 9er game? Ya Know.....when Zorn should have been watching the game and not holding JCs hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chow184 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 oh and lets compare jason campbell's numbers to matt hasslebecks numbers in the first year playing in a WC system.Matt Hasslebeck actually had 2 years to sit and learn the WCO from Holmgrem and Favre in green bay. the OP is actually trying to compare a pro bowl QB to a "talented but not there yet NFL QB" to reach a conclusion that Campbell probably won't do well in the future. Campbell 16 games 506 attempts 315 completions 62.3% completed 3245 yards 6.4 YPA 13 TD's 6 INT's Hasslebeck 13 games 321 attempts 176 completions 54.8% completed 2023 yards 6.3 YPA 7 TD's 8 INT's give campbell his second year then toss him off the roof or back up the money truck. because hasselbeck who had 2 years in the WC scheme prior seattle stunk up the joint compared to campbell. hasselbeck then evolved into a probowl QB to which you are comparing campbell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonSway Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 so what about all the 3rd and 8 plays where zorn puts all the receiver on routes that are done short of 8 yds. zorn was play-calling scared this year. next year he should be able to not ONLY work on JC's foot work and actually put the entire passing offense to work. JC is money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#21Taylor4Ever Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 So all those check downs are by Zorns design?BS JC is to conservative because.... JC is inaccurate....that hurts YPP It also hurts WRs that have to stand an take hits If inaccurate is a 63% completion rate, I'll take that any day of the week. I can remember prior to this season, so many people said Campbell's height in reference to ARE and Moss' heights were going to be a problem. Now all of a sudden, Campbell's being blamed for high passes, when only a year ago these same people said we need taller receivers. Well we got taller receivers and both STILL dropped passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#21Taylor4Ever Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Assumption, assumption, assumption. Prove to me that it's playcalling that's the problem and not campbell. If you can assume it's Campbell, why can we not assume it's Zorn's play calling? Or does it only work for your side of this debate?? You want proof? Head Coach - Jim Zorn QB - Jason Campbell Head Coach calls the plays into the QB. QB executes said plays. If said plays are not available, or if the O-Line doesn't afford the QB ample time, QB must do what's available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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