WP: Michael Wilbon- Fan Depreciation

[IbleedBnG83]

My Ravens friend went to the game with her boyfriend who is a Redskins fan and season ticket holder. She HATES the Steelers being a Ravens junkie and all.

She said she was never more disgusted in her life. Even at Ravens game, the divisional rival of the Steelers, there are never nerely as much Steelers fans and they always get drowned out.

Sad display....sad display indeed.

[Riggo#44]

My Ravens friend went to the game with her boyfriend who is a Redskins fan and season ticket holder. She HATES the Steelers being a Ravens junkie and all.

She said she was never more disgusted in her life. Even at Ravens game, the divisional rival of the Steelers, there are never nerely as much Steelers fans and they always get drowned out.

Sad display....sad display indeed.

Here's my take on it. Am I embarrassed by the display -- a little. Not nearly as much though as the product on the field. I know when we were up 6-0 in the 1st quarter -- the Steelers fans had nothing on us. It was only after we crapped the bed that they got louder. The Redskins and Steelers are NOT rivals! I saw a lot of Redskins and Steelers fans tailgating together, myself included. Many Skins fans brought their Steeler fan friends.

THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN WITH DALLAS. Not to mention 90% of the Dallas fans in this area are the biggest bunch of fairweather bandwagon jumpers -- and Dallas is not playing well. They will not represent.

[hail2skins]

I know it's a difficult concept to grasp after decades of sellouts and and an extremely long waitling list.

However, what Chipwhich is saying is totally true.

Our fans probably aren't selling that many more of their tickets than most fan bases per capita when a big game comes around.

What is happening is the Redskins ticket office has thousands upon thousands of tickets they sell on an individual game basis. Most of these seats don't sell for crappy games like AZ, NO and St.L.

However, most those tickets do sell for premium opponents like Dallas and Pitt., thus you really notice the opposing fans.

Places like Philly and Dallas where there are only 65,000 seats, most of which belong to season ticket holders who attend the games.

RFKFedEx, since you're a stadium snob , lets break down the number of seats at our place:

68,000 general admission seats (which include the 8K OVs that Dan installed)

24,000 premium seats (15K club level, plus the loge and suites)

Is that accurate? I would think if anyone would know it'd be you.

I guess my point is that for all the complaints that the stadium is too big, seems to me the primary reason is that we have a lot more premium seats than other venues, and not that many more GA seats. Now, I understand the premium seats are primarily corporate-owned, and I sit in the club level (last of a 10-year deal) and rarely see the same folks on a week-to-week basis. However, on Monday night, there were a large amount of Steeler fans in the uppers and lowers. So what is that telling you?

How many GA tickets do you think season ticket holders themselves are selling? Also, how many GA tickets do you think the Skins hold as part of the Tailgate/TD Clubs that aren't taken and have to be gotten rid of on a week-to-week basis?

All in all, maybe its unfair to criticize our OVERALL fansbase. However, it seems to me that maybe our season-ticket holding fanbase isn't all that loyal, and isn't great, as people always like to tell you that bring up the consecutive sellout stuff and waiting list stuff. Seems like one that is at best average.

Looking forward to your thoughts.....its an interesting topic.

[da#1skinsfan]

sad but true, and I dont know what you guys are talking about, with the exception of very few games, I am CONSISTENTLY and ALWAYS disappointed in our fans at every single home game. No noise on 3rd down, screaming while the offense is on the field, cheering for holding, then realizing its on the offense...the fans are just not into it and the majority of the ones that are are clueless. I agree with him, its probably the worst fanbase in the league, seriously.

That said, leave it to Wilbon to introduce race. The true motivation for this article came out at the end, what with the election results, Wilbon just needed something to get him back on his racial soapbox. Pointless end to the article.

Cowgirls fans do not take over the stadium like that other night, Ive never seen anything like that. If there is one SINGLE game these turncoat season ticket holders go to, its the cowboys game, they wont be unloading their tickets like monday night.

[RedskinsNation]

Wilbon forgets how the Packer fans take over the Bears stadium every year.

I know first hand cuz my wifes family are all Die Hard Packers fans from Wisconsin...been there done that.

There is no excuse for all the reasons why Redskins fans sell their tickets but the STEELERS make it look worse than it is.

If the Steelers represent...that is the norm.

When the Saints, Cardinals & Rams fans show up 25k strong then thats a problem.

The Steelers fans showing up is a once a decade problem.

Cowboys fans will show up but not like what Steelers fans did.

Fans and the media underestimate the Steelers Fan base....watch their next road game and ESPECIALLY a primetime road game and u will see that FEDEX Field isnt the only place it happens.

[GoCommiesGo]

That stadium is to large.

The simple fact that the TO sets aside a specific amount of tickets for each game to sell on stubhub should tell you what you need to know.

It's difficult to fill a 70k stadium it's impossible to fill a 90k stadium with the home team. That's just the way it is.

Snyder may not have built FedEx but he sure as hell has not done a damn thing to improve it. As someone who has missed maybe 4-5 home games over last 7 years the game day experience is getting worse.

I'm not talking about the hammered fans, I expect that at a sporting event at least most people can hold their booze. I'm talking about other Skins fans telling people to sit down and be quite or calling the usher because the person in front of them is to loud or standing to much.

I may have never been to RFK but after talking to my dad about this all he did was shake his head and say "It definitely is not the 80's".

To expensive, to corporate and to big. Leads to a weak home-field advantage as we saw Monday night.

[hail2skins]

There is no excuse for all the reasons why Redskins fans sell their tickets......

See, that's just it. I think many of us have this vision that the people who buy season tickets, especially the uppers and lowers, actually go to the games. But it is increasingly becoming clear that this isn't the case, and that there are a fair amount of upper and lower tickets that are either 1) being sold on StubHub by individual owners; 2)owned by coporations or government agencies who give them away or sell them to their employees; or 3)owned by the Skins themselves who have to sell them due to not having enough takers for the Tailgate or TD clubs.

[TMK9973]

My Open Email to Wilbon this morning

Loved the article today, some good points, and some incorrect points.

1) I take my 7 year old to Redskins games and have since he was 3. Including twice in Dallas. While he hears curse words and sees some drunks, he has a great time. In fact, it was worse at a MD game where the students were drunks and obnoxious. Articles like yours today makes people scared to take their kids, which is a shame. Kids LOVE going to games. My Son does watch the whole game and never gets board, so I know he's a little different, but not going because there are some drunks is like telling a family not to go see the white house because there might be some rude homeless across the street.

2) Agree somewhat with fans. Best fans are Packers, Steelers, Bears, Eagles, Broncos in that order. Patriots fans only when they win.

Cowboy fans are not there however. YES, there will be lots of cowboy fans next week. Always are, but that's because there are lots of locals that like the cowboys. Two games I went to in Dallas had about 20% to 25% redskins fans. it's the same. Also - Texas stadium has had a few close calls on blackout (2004 season opener needed a company to buy 3000 tickets to avoid a blackout!). They are fair weather fans that leave early. they don't travel, they just happen to have a following in other cites.

3) Cowboys vs Redskins Rivalry started under George Allan. Well after the racial wall on the Redskins had been broken. It was a very simple rivalry. Cowboys were the best, George Allan wanted the skins to strive to be better then them. He created it. Nothing to do with Race.

4) Skins fans are not in the same category as Packers, Bears, Steelers, Broncos, or Eagle fans, true. But they are better then avg. Did you go to Canton OH? 20,000 skins fans traveled to the HOF game. There is a Redskin Bar in every major city. True for the other teams I mentioned, but not true for clubs such as Colts, Patriots, Chiefs, Ravens, 49ers, etc....

Am I biased? Sure. But I've traveled a lot, spent many years in strange cities getting to any sports bars that would show NFL games. If the Redskins bar was to far (always used the this link. Check it out. http://www.haruth.com/WRRemoteAreas.html )

Then I would find a closer Bar with NFL ticket. No matter the city, there would be a big group of Bears fans, A few Packer fans (most packer fans don't leave Green Bay during the season), so steeler fans, and always a handfull of Redskins fans. Those were the teams you could count on.)

You have been a sports writer, and a famous one, for a long time now. It has skewed your perceptive.

[MD.C RedskinsFan]

I knew FedEx Field was big but this conversation has really opened my eyes to how big it is. I knew it was the biggest stadium but I just realized that it seats over 10,000 more than the next highest. Besides that, there is no other stadium in the NFL that seats over 10,000 more than the next highest. It also seats over 20,000 more than most (70%) stadiums in the NFL.

As someone mentioned I would really like to see how the Cowboys handle the increase. And even then it seems like it expands to 100,000 but the normal capacity is 80,000 which is still less than FedEx Field.

Finally I'm especially surprised at how small the Cowboys, Eagles and Steelers stadiums are in comparison to FedEx Field.

[IbleedBnG83]

Here's my take on it. One -- the Redskins and Steelers are NOT rivals! I saw a lot of Redskins and Steelers fans tailgating together, myself included. Manye Skins fans brought their Steeler fan friends.

THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN WITH DALLAS. Not to mention 90% of the Dallas fans in this area are the biggest bunch of fairweather bandwagon jumpers -- and Dallas is not playing well. They will not represent.

This is another case of poor journalism by Wilbon.

I don't think it will happen with Dallas. But ratio was completely and utterly uncalled for.

[RedskinsNation]

The place was rocking in the first qtr when the Skins D was banging and making plays...on Pittsburghs 3rd downs the crowd was VERY loud.

Once the wheels fell off it was only the Steelers fans that had stuff to cheer about.

Every game ive been to this year at FEDEX the crowd has been pumped.....i do agree that people love to moan about others standing up on 3rd downs/big plays....but our crowd has been into it for all the games ive been to.

Its so funny though, we will beat Dallas on Sunday night football at home this week and their fans wont have much to cheer about and there will be 68 threads on here Monday morning about how the Skins fans showed up and represented and improved upon their MNF showing vs. the Steelers.

Some people need to acknowledge that the Steelers fans base is BIGGER than ours and travels better and realize its not a FEDEX THING but that Pitt fans do this everywhere.

This issue will die down for a long time....until the Steelers return in 2015 or whatever year it is.

[scuppajones]

I guess it is a double edged sword, because the stadium is to big, but because it is so big I was able to get season tickets. If the stadium was the same size, but located in DC at the RFK site more fans would show up. Of course if the stadium does get moved to DC you can bet your life the tickets are going to have the PSL cost added in to them, and I won't be able to afford them. Basically DC screwed us all by not letting Jack Kent Cooke build the stadium where he wanted to 12 years ago.

[DieHard86]

He knows the difference between fans and people who attend the games--shame on him. I called for his boycott this past summer and got banned for a day. Anyone with me now?

[dwbiggs]

I don't give a damn how many opposing fans come in....whats more important is the behavior, or lack of behavior, of the fans that show up drunk, using profanity around kids, puking, and fighting. How can you guys talk about who fans are selling their tickets to when all this crap is going on? Maybe more fans will show up if there is no threat of some drunk puking on their head.

[MD.C RedskinsFan]

Also because of the stadium size difference it's just foolish to use this as a gauge of who has the better fans. Anyone can easily say "well this would never happen in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia." Or that "I could easily be a better commissioner than Goodell" but until the situations are matched up exactly you're just going by what you think and most people who make these claims are just trying to make grand statements to spice up their writing. If the Eagles added 23,000 seats, guaranteed there would be an increase in non Eagles fans. Either that or they wouldn't sell out. 20,000 difference is huge. Many towns are smaller than that.

[Mark The Homer]

I knew FedEx Field was big but this conversation has really opened my eyes to how big it is. I knew it was the biggest stadium but I just realized that it seats over 10,000 more than the next highest. Besides that, there is no other stadium in the NFL that seats over 10,000 more than the next highest. It also seats over 20,000 more than most (70%) stadiums in the NFL.

Our stadium is not really big. It's stuffed. There's a difference.

Stuffing 91,000 into a stadium built for 78,000 is going to add unfavorable elements to the experience - even for the original 78,000 fans. I think that is a big part of the problem.

[MD.C RedskinsFan]

Our stadium is not really big. It's stuffed. There's a difference.

Stuffing 91,000 into a stadium built for 78,000 is going to add unfavorable elements to the experience - even for the original 78,000 fans. I think that is a big part of the problem.

Makes sense, though when I was saying big I really was referring to the amount of seats. It seats a lot in comparison to the majority of nfl stadiums.

I actually haven't been to that many stadiums besides FedEx Field for me to make a real comparison in "bigness".

[TMK9973]

Have a solution that will never happen.

Season ticket holders are issued a Eletronic card has a bar code that is swiped when entering the stadium. The card is the ticket. While people will still give their friends the cards every now and then, you aren't going to sell your 1 card for 1 game on ebay.

Others can still request paper tickets, but they cost more. a lot more, since you know the ones that are requesting paper tickets would be re-sold.

[Stugein]

There's a 4-seat block in the front row of my section that is an obvious broker block. Different people every week. Sometimes skins fans, sometimes opposition. And it's not the only such block in the stadium. I don't think that the real problem is real fans, the individual season ticket holders who go to most games, selling the occasional game they can't make (though admittedly it doesn't help either). The real problem is 3 fold:

1 - The stadium is too large by about 15,000 seats minimum. This creates more opportunity for brokers to grab seats to put on the secondary market. And every season seat that is held by a ticket broker is a seat that will never come up on the wait-list for a real fan.

2 - The organization's partnerships with ticket sites sends tickets directly from the team, into the hands of the opposition. When the team itself is saying, "Go to StubHub or TicketMaster for these tickets that we have" it's a problem.

3 - Ticket pricing. Yeah, there's not much we can do about this. But season tickets have been priced out of the range of affordability for a lot of real fans. A family that makes $50k/year would have to drop 10-12% or more of their annual income just for a single pair of season seats! That's ridiculous in my opinion. Because of this people who do manage to afford tickets (who aren't corporations) can't easily sell their seats when they can't attend a game for any sort of reasonable recuperation to fellow skins fans, and thus are forced to go the broker sites to get what they can.

Take back out the obstructed view seats, sell the leftover tickets held by the team through the team itself and not the brokers, and be realistic about who your real fans are and price season tickets accordingly. Then let's see how FedEx feels on game day.

Edit- From the TO:

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Dear Redskins Premium Member,

A limited number of premium tickets are available for the Redskins vs. Cowboys game on November 16th @ 8:15 PM. As an existing Premium Member, you have the right to purchase these seats first. Additional Club, Loge and Dream seats can be purchased by clicking Here or [...]

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Where "Here" is a link to Ticket Master with tickets to the Dallas game. What do they think other teams' fans can't find that link or something? It's an open invitation by the team to enemy fans to come to FedEx. And people still blame the individual STHs.

[SkinsNumberOne]

One thing that seems to be unsaid, is that there are STEELER fans who have SEASON tickets. Yes, this is true. Why? Probably because there are so many Pittsburgh area transplants in this area, and many of them - coming from the AFC and rarely playing Washington - actually root for the Skins in the NFC.

I know this because there was a fight in front of us (between drunk Redskin fans), and a Steeler fan behind us was saying to himself (aloud) - if they get thrown out, maybe I get to move up. He was basically joking, but I was surprised to hear that he was a season ticket holder.

Another thing that happened was there were a lot of couples that had one Redskin fan, one Steeler fan. These kinds of things were especially prevalent because, again, Pittsburgh is not far from us, it was a Monday night game, and there are so many Steeler fans in the area.

By the way, I think it's kind of stupid for anyone who wasn't AT the game to really complain. You didn't buy a ticket, so I guess I could say you were part of the problem right? I wouldn't, but I could, if you complain but weren't present.

[SkinsNumberOne]

My Open Email to Wilbon this morning

I like your email. Keep in mind, also, that Wilbon is from Chicago. It would have sounded like you're complaining too much if you had brought that up (so good that you didn't) but just fyi. They joke on him sometimes about liking the Bears, and during the Jordan era of the Bulls he seemed to be a huge Bulls fan.

[CaptainFun]

Perfect Storm Points:

At least 2+ hours commute for most anyone (meaning most people won't get home till no earlier than 1 am).

The Election was the very next day and most people had to get up earlier than normal to vote and have it not impact their normal work day. Some voting lines were at least 2 hours in some places.

The Steelers have not played at Redskins Stadium for a home game in 22 years. And as naive as some people are, they do have a bigger fan base in D.C. than most people would think. They are willing to spend $150 for a ticket in the $400, while a Skins fan is not because they would rather see a division rival game on a Sunday.

HTTR

I wholeheartedly agree. I while there is absolutely no excuse for being outshouted in your own stadium, there were several factors beyond our control that had an impact.

With Dallas coming to town we have a chance to redeem ourselves again on the national stage against our most hated rival. I will be in attendance once again.

[CaptainFun]

If his seats are in section 415 he's probably not making a profit on the resale of his tickets. What he is doing is reducing the overall cost of his season tickets by selling a few the big individual games above face.

Ask him what he got in return for his preseason tickets and the games like AZ and St.L if he attempted to sell those games also.

RFKFedEx,

The tickets I bought from you were much better than anticipated and I will take whatever games you are not attending this season and beyond even at your minimally marked up rate. Thanks again.

[SkinsNumberOne]

I wholeheartedly agree. I while there is absolutely no excuse for being outshouted in your own stadium, there were several factors beyond our control that had an impact.

With Dallas coming to town we have a chance to redeem ourselves again on the national stage against our most hated rival. I will be in attendance once again.

I will repeat one other thing I said before though. In the first quarter, and during introductions, I thought Redskin fans were obviously louder than Steeler fans.

Only when the Redskin O continued to be impotent, and when the Steelers O started to make movement (mainly in the second half) did that change and stay.

The Redskin fans tried to be loud through the rest of the game, but the O just didn't give them a lot to rally around. Fans tend to be silenced by an offense that leads to 6 points with two opportunities that basically start in FG territory. When those are the only points only put on the board, and they are the first two scores... the other thing I noticed is, as the game wore on, some fans cared a lot more about getting drunk than getting loud.

[USS Redskins]

Cry all you want about the stadium size - if the Skins actually SCORE then the other fans will SHUT UP!

If the Skins won 4 SB's in a decade - then their fan base will increase. Like in the 70's when I was young - I was a Skins fan and allot of my friends loved Pitt and Dallas becuase they won SB's and were the stars.

Its not that hard - win SB's 3 of the next 4 years and problem solved.