Are we overrating Todd Collins's performance?

[Riggins77]

Then why was he able to doulble JC's entire career wins against the NFCE and teams that finished above .500? I have never heard a response from anyone on those 2 facts regarding our "franchise QB". No one had tapes on JC and he started 2-5. Once people got tapes of him he finished 1-5.

And no one has tapes of Zorn calling a single play in the NFL as a coach. Based on that logic with JC, we should expect to start at least 4-0 this year or you will call for him to be benched.

Where do you come up with this crap? Do you watch football or pay attention to what's going on? Al Sander's offense was a timing offense, throw to where the receiver is supposed to end up on a route. Collins was the back-up in that system for what 11-12 years? Of course he is going to come in and succeed, he has ran the offense forever. He is a vet, regardless of how many games he's played/started in his career. JC wasn't doing that bad and we lost some nail biters due to poor play calling and collapse on defense blowing 4th quarter leads.

If TC was so great, why did he never become a starting QB in the NFL?

[Thinking Skins]

:doh: :doh:

Then why was he able to doulble JC's entire career wins against the NFCE and teams that finished above .500? I have never heard a response from anyone on those 2 facts regarding our "franchise QB". No one had tapes on JC and he started 2-5. Once people got tapes of him he finished 1-5.

And no one has tapes of Zorn calling a single play in the NFL as a coach. Based on that logic with JC, we should expect to start at least 4-0 this year or you will call for him to be benched.

You basing it all on wins means you're saying that Rex Grossman is better than Jason Campbell because he took his team to the Super Bowl, or that Rex Grossman is better than Peyton Manning because he had a better record as a first year starter. :doh: :doh:

[Voice_of_Reason]

Then why was he able to doulble JC's entire career wins against the NFCE and teams that finished above .500? I have never heard a response from anyone on those 2 facts regarding our "franchise QB". No one had tapes on JC and he started 2-5. Once people got tapes of him he finished 1-5.

And no one has tapes of Zorn calling a single play in the NFL as a coach. Based on that logic with JC, we should expect to start at least 4-0 this year or you will call for him to be benched.

I think that we should be able to agree that at some point experience does factor in, right? It's too simplistic to just look at one thing at at time. You can't say: They had no tape on JC, so he should succeed. Because he had absolutely no experience in the NFL. So, just like every first year starter before him, he struggled.

Also note: his stats his first year weren't bad, the defense was HISTORICALLY BAD. Even if Joe Montana at his hight had been playing, they still wouldn't have won a lot of games.

Todd Collins has been in the leage for a million years with the same coordinator, was a starting QB in the league before he was benched and run out of town. He HAD the experience, at least at some level, that JC did not. So the fact that there was no tape on him was a larger factor.

PLEASE don't get me wrong. I think what he was able to do was outstanding. It was a great story, and it was great to watch. But I don't think that TC is the guy who can lead the team long term. And I think that if he started this year, people would be ready for him, and you would see a whole lot of turnovers. Just my :2cents:

[Wyvern]

I'm disappointed in the original post.

It's great the OP decided to watch the Skins-Vike's game. But before he gets inspired to post what he did, perhaps he should also consider checking out some of the other games too. Especially, the last couple of games when Jason's juggernaut offense was putting up a whopping 23, 13, and 16 points a game!

Frankly, the OP should absorb a little more game context and really look at the last seven games of the regular season, instead of engaging in the stats/numbers exercise. Perhaps the OP could also try to recall post-game interviews of Redksins players talking about how Todd got them the ball so quickly, that they could secure it and start making their moves before the defender got to them.

This post bothers me because in trying to defend Jason Campbell, the OP has drafted a slanted analysis of game statistics to devalue the great feat Todd Collins was able to accomplish. Collins stepped into a very difficult situation and managed to help the 2007 Redskins salvage their reputation as winners, energized the fans on a successful run into the playoffs, salvaged respect for a HOF coach's last season, and --even more importantly-- help his teammates honor Sean Taylor's memory.

Thinking Skins, when you assembled all those numbers and statistical analyses, didn't you think it worth mentioning that Minnesota was #1 defense against the rush or the 8th best team in sacks? That we were going into their home stadium? That the Vikings only needed to beat Washington to clinch their own playoff spot? ...Nope, you simply mentioned Collins was going up against the 30th rated defense. (Strangely, you could remember non stat, game context for the Cowboys game, but not for Minnesota, or New York.)

Also, you seemed to insinuate Collins benefited from Portis running better than he did for Campbell. ... ... Did you consider the possibiity that the Collins passing game (which attacked all areas of the field) may opened up more avenues for Portis to exploit? Or do you just think that Portis ran harder for Collins?

Oh yeah,, and how about this little stat you seemed to have overlooked in your analysis?

Campbell 1-4, Collins 4-1

One thing that Collins proved during his stretch-run to the playoffs is how the QB in Saunders system is about facilitating the other players' contributions, and giving them sufficient opportunity to contribute effectively. (Even Jason commented on this and about what he learned while Todd was directing the offense) And Collins showed how the system isn't as much about highlighting the QB's individual athletic performance, though the QB will get credit for the TD receptions. So in 2006 and 2007, when Campbell is scrambling around and running for yards, or making up a play on the fly, don't you wonder why the original play broke down? ... Or is it always some other Redskins' fault?

I'll close by noting that Collins is not a danger to supplant Campbell, unless Campbell performs so badly that the Zorn has no choice. I'd note that Collins is less of fit for a WCO due to his lack of mobility, and fair-to-poor arm strength on the longer passes. I was suprised he was signed back to such a nice contract; maybe the coaches know something we don't.

Like most fans, I am earnestly hoping Campbell steps up his game this season, and fulfills the promise he's given us glimpses of. I suspect the time he's spent with Saunders, Collins, and now Zorn will give him an extra insight into the WCO. I'm also encouraged by the flexibility that Sherman Smith brings to planning an offense, and he will likely tailor things to Campbell's strengths and take out things that Campbell doesn't do so well. But he's still got to step up his game, and time will tell whether he can do that on a consistent basis.

[stp240]

Then why was he able to doulble JC's entire career wins against the NFCE and teams that finished above .500? I have never heard a response from anyone on those 2 facts regarding our "franchise QB". No one had tapes on JC and he started 2-5. Once people got tapes of him he finished 1-5.

And no one has tapes of Zorn calling a single play in the NFL as a coach. Based on that logic with JC, we should expect to start at least 4-0 this year or you will call for him to be benched.

"wins against NFCE and teams that finished above .500"

TC was able to do that because of the O-line play, plain and simple

None of this "people got tapes" stuff

Fact is, when push comes to shove in the playoffs, i want Jason Campbell as the QB:logo:

[mrdoctor]

Absolutely impossible to overrate the performance of Todd Collins.

The guy sat on the bench for ten seasons....saw limited reps......came in cold, kicked ass and took names.

You just can't possibly ask for anything else from the second stringer.

Now.....possibly underrating the performance of JC........but I wouldn't discount what Collins did.

ME EITHER HE SHOWED US WHAT HE HAD

[elkabong82]

Nice way to get the thread started off on a positive note. :laugh:

If anything, a guy coming in after ten years cold and doing a better job than the starter we have so much invested in might support that our starter is a square peg that we are attempting to fit into a round hole.

It certainly isn't within a million miles of supporting that JC is a better qb than Todd Collins.

Too early to say. And hopefully JC improves.

Nice consistency elka.....A+.

Or it could simply show that Collins' familiarity with the playbook gave him an edge, and despite that he didn't vastly outperform JC, as the OP showed, near enough to warrant people saying TC is the better QB.

I never said JC was a better QB than TC either, just that TC wasn't better than JC. Why don't you try actually comprehending someone's point for once, instead of just hearing what you want and going off of that? Nice consistency though, McD5, in completely missing someone's point.

[elkabong82]

Also, I bet that some of the same people praising Collins' as the next Montana in here were some of the loudest in years' past saying TC should go, that we don't need him, too many aging vets, etc.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Then why was he able to doulble JC's entire career wins against the NFCE and teams that finished above .500?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

"Double JC's entire career wins against NFCE..."

Um, JC has one win against the NFCE. Collins has two lol. That doesn't mean **** right now, it's WAY too small a sample to draw any conclusions from...

"...and teams that finished above .500."

Um, JC has one win against teams that finished above .500. Collins has two lol :laugh:.

This has GOT to be THE most convoluted and distorted of stats to make a case that I've seen on this board lol...I got an idea, how about we say something like "Then why has JC been able to beat teams outside of the NFCE with winning records while Collins can not?" lol...

And to be factual, if you combine games against NFCE opponents and opponents who finished above .500, JC has two wins, and Collins has two wins. Collins doesn't "double JC's career wins".

I have never heard a response from anyone on those 2 facts regarding our "franchise QB".

Because those facts are asinine lol :laugh:...they hold absolutely ZERO value.

No one had tapes on JC and he started 2-5. Once people got tapes of him he finished 1-5.

More accurately, no one had tapes on JC and he started 2-5. Once people got tapes of him he finished 5-7. What's this 1-5 ****? People had tapes on JC from 2006 to use to prepare for him in 2007.

[SnyderMustGo]

Let me translate this post for those who can't spot the obvious point in it:

I'm sick of tired of everyone pointing out how poor JC played and using as evidence how much better we looked under Todd Collins. So what I am going to do is to try to unnecessarily tear down Todd Collins who did nothing but his job and try to suggest he really wasn't that good. By doing so, maybe I'll diminish how worse JC looked in comparison. That way, maybe people will start believing like me that JC's poor play is really the fault of everyone else, and if only he had the chance Todd had, we would have done better (even though he never did).

That's basically all this post is about.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Let me translate this post for those who can't spot the obvious point in it:

I'm sick of tired of everyone pointing out how poor JC played and using as evidence how much better we looked under Todd Collins. So what I am going to do is to try to unnecessarily tear down Todd Collins who did nothing but his job and try to suggest he really wasn't that good. By doing so, maybe I'll diminish how worse JC looked in comparison. That way, maybe people will start believing like me that JC's poor play is really the fault of everyone else, and if only he had the chance Todd had, we would have done better (even though he never did).

That's basically all this post is about.

I think something was wrong with your free online translator.

The one I used translated it to the following:

"Everyone loved how Collins came in and helped lead the team to 4 straight wins...but did Jason Campbell really do THAT much worse? If you actually look at Campbell's individual stats moreso than the win/loss record, you'll see that the two QBs' individual performances were rather close. So maybe JC is closer to giving us that type of 4-game run that Collins did, and maybe Collins isn't lightyears ahead of Campbell afterall."

[chow184]

That's it right there.

I don't think JC played badly last season, but it did seem like the offense did flow more smoothly with TC in there.

What JC hasn't been able to do is, as TLC says above, close the deal. Several games that the OP mentioned were situations in which JC had the rock in his hand at the end of the game with a chance to drive us to the winning score and he couldn't get it done. At some point that needs to happen.

this is true

but I also think it needs to be mentions that in alot of the situations were Campbell had the ball for that one final drive,Campbell's supporting cast often cracked before he did.

I remember the green bay game were the WR's had the dropsies the entire game and campbell was making AWESOME throws but nobody was holding on to anything,then when it came to crunch time the O-line went to **** and Campbell had no time at all to do anything.

the O-line was EXTREMELY vulnerable to the overload blitz,I remember in the Bills game Jason had gotten sacked for a safety before even hitting the final step of his drop. that's an absolutely pathetic example of pass protection.

when it came to Collins,he got better pass protection than Jason did,had a healthy moss,more competent running attack,and non-handcuffed playcalling.

I don't what happened with the O-line that made them pass block better for collins,continuity? seeing there QB get his kneecap relocated?

I'll give my final verdict on jason after this season

our O-line when healthy was a top 10 unit in the NFL,and the problem was always lack of depth(bit us in 2007),this year we have good depth(developed in 2007,Fabini/Heyer,maybe Wade,addition of Rinehart).

before if we lost someone on the OL it caused a huge mess,since there was no chemistry,this season it will be plug and play.drop off in play?maybe but it will be soooo much better as far as depth goes.

I look at the O-line like the engine of a car,it's what allows the offense to operate.if your O-line is sucking your offense is probably sucking too.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

when it came to Collins,he got better pass protection than Jason did

He didn't in the Seattle game, though...and we saw how that turned out.

I'll give my final verdict on jason after this season

As we all should :applause:...

[IbleedBnG83]

I think Collins has an advantage of knowing the playbook for sooo long. I still think he is a smart QB with a lot of experience and made great decisions. He had good awareness. Lets see how he performs if called upon.

[chow184]

He didn't in the Seattle game, though...and we saw how that turned out.

As we all should :applause:...

what happened to todd collins in seattle is what happened to jason when we played NY@home and pretty much all of our losses. O-line couldn't block and the QB was forced into mistakes.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I think Collins has an advantage of knowing the playbook for sooo long. I still think he is a smart QB with a lot of experience and made great decisions. He had good awareness. Lets see how he performs if called upon.

I agree, Collins' advantage over JC is indeed knowing the playbook and scheme like the back of his hand, which gave him confidence when delivering the ball when and where it should...and having the awareness that years of being in the NFL can give a QB. Some quarterbacks have both almost right off the bat, but the large majority of them do not and need it to develop over time--most QBs have the "light turn on" in their 3rd or 4th season. I'm feeling realistically optimistic that JC's light will turn on for him this season, and stay on...he showed definite signs of noticeable improvement last season.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

what happened to todd collins in seattle is what happened to jason when we played NY@home and pretty much all of our losses. O-line couldn't block and the QB was forced into mistakes.

I agree there...

[CRobi21]

Ahh. The TC vs JC debate. An argument that will last the hands of time, forever and ever.

[Redskins:Victory_or_Death]

Ahh. The TC vs JC debate. An argument that will last the hands of time, forever and ever.

Nah. This, in time, will give way to the "JC vs. CB" debate or the "JC vs. TC vs. CB" debate, or hell, maybe even a "TC vs. CB" debate.

You know this is true. :doh:

[CRobi21]

Nah. This, in time, will give way to the "JC vs. CB" debate or the "JC vs. TC vs. CB" debate, or hell, maybe even a "TC vs. CB" debate.

You know this is true. :doh:

How silly of me to jump to conclusions. Your statement will for sure show to be true, in the near future.

[Hunter_R]

TC comes in and we go 4-0 against 2 division teams, the defending SB champs, the NFC team with the longest active win streak at the time and the eventual SB champs. None of JC's wins last year came against teams that finished above .500. He is marginal against average teams and sucks against decent ones. The streak displayed how worthless JC has been.

That's probably what you'll get as a response from most.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Nah. This, in time, will give way to the "JC vs. CB" debate or the "JC vs. TC vs. CB" debate, or hell, maybe even a "TC vs. CB" debate.

You know this is true. :doh:

:laugh:

[robotfire]

the most important stat for any qb is wins and losses. collins was 4-1. you can't overrate that. he was solid.

Sorry, but the quarterback isn't the only one playing in games. He didn't do anything to claim that Giants victory. In fact, he was dreadful. The fact of the matter is, the team started playing better. You can't give Collins credit for the defense's improvement.

[Thinking Skins]

I'm disappointed in the original post.

Thinking Skins, when you assembled all those numbers and statistical analyses, didn't you think it worth mentioning that Minnesota was #1 defense against the rush or the 8th best team in sacks? That we were going into their home stadium? That the Vikings only needed to beat Washington to clinch their own playoff spot? ...Nope, you simply mentioned Collins was going up against the 30th rated defense. (Strangely, you could remember non stat, game context for the Cowboys game, but not for Minnesota, or New York.)

I stated where each team was against the pass, the stat that I thought mattered when comparing the two QBs. If you disagree, then thats fine, but I didn't think that the rating of the running games mattered much in this analysis. Its cool for you to disagree.

Also, you seemed to insinuate Collins benefited from Portis running better than he did for Campbell. ... ... Did you consider the possibiity that the Collins passing game (which attacked all areas of the field) may opened up more avenues for Portis to exploit? Or do you just think that Portis ran harder for Collins?

I considered that, but I quickly dismissed it when I realized that the offense was moving better with Campbell than Collins. Notice that Campbell put up more yards in those 5 games, including two games with 300 yard performances and games where he threw the ball 49 and 54 times. This is in spite of not having a running game to depend on. So the team was relying MORE on Campbell. So the fact that Portis couldn't run the ball probably means that the offensive line (which performed so well for Collins) probably wasn't performing too well for Campbell and his offense.

Its also worth noting that the game plans for the offense these weeks was not to have Collins be the "main guy" on offense. The offense went through Portis, and when he was stopped, the offense was stopped. Collins was able to get his yards once Portis had been defined as the guy that needs to be stopped.

[Thinking Skins]

Just to analyze stats further and to extend what I was saying to Wyvern, I just got finished looking at the play by play of those final 7 games, and in particular looking at the play distribution. Notice how much the team was relying on Campbell during those games, versus how balanced it was when TC came in there. We had practically no running game in any of those games except philly. Plus, add to that the fact that Suisham missed quite a few FGs along this stretch, and even more questions arise about the differences between Campbell and Collins in this offense.

Here's the play by play for the Eagles game.

Drive 1: 3 runs, 3 passes

Drive 2: 4 runs, 4 passes

Drive 3: 4 runs, 6 passes

Drive 4: 2 runs, 1 pass

Drive 5: 4 runs, 4 passes

Drive 6: 6 runs, 6 passes

Drive 7: 2 runs, 4 passes

Drive 8: 7 runs, 0 passes (after FG we lead 25-20)

Drive 9: 0 runs, 4 passes (we're now losing)

Drive 10: 0 runs, 6 passes

TOTAL: 32 runs, 38 passes

We should also take into account that Suisham missed two FGs this game.

Here's the play by play for the Dallas game.

Drive 1: 3 runs, 4 passes

Drive 2: 1 run, 2 passes

Drive 3: 5 runs, 4 passes

Drive 4: 2 runs, 10 passes

Drive 5: 3 runs, 5 passes

Drive 6: 1 run, 4 passes

Drive 7: 0 runs, 4 passes

Drive 8: 0 runs, 12 passes

Drive 9: 0 runs, 6 passes

Drive 10: 0 runs, 4 passes

TOTAL: 15 runs, 55 passes (or passing plays)

Here's the play by play for the Bucks game.

Drive 1: 0 runs, 1 pass

Drive 2: 1 run, 1 pass

Drive 3: 3 runs, 2 passes

Drive 4: 0 runs, 3 passes

Drive 5: 2 runs, 2 passes

Drive 6: 2 runs, 7 passes

Drive 7: 1 run, 2 passes

Drive 8: 4 runs, 5 passes

Drive 9: 5 runs, 8 passes

Drive 10: 5 runs, 6 passes

Drive 11: 5 runs, 5 passes

Drive 12: 1 run 10 passes

TOTAL: 29 runs, 52 passes (or passing plays)

Here's the play by play for the Bills game.

Drive 1: 4 runs, 9 passes

Drive 2: 2 runs, 9 passes

Drive 3: 2 runs, 1 pass

Drive 4: 3 runs, 9 passes

Drive 5: 4 runs, 6 passes

Drive 6: 1 run, 2 passes

Drive 7: 1 run, 2 passes

Drive 8: 2 runs, 2 passes

Drive 9: 1 run, 2 passes

Drive 10: 5 runs, 1 pass

Drive 11: 0 runs, 1 pass

TOTAL: 25 runs, 44 passes (or passing plays)

Here's the play by play for the Bears game.

Drive 1: 1 run, 2 JC passes

Drive 2: 2 runs, 1 JC pass

Drive 3: 2 runs, 4 JC passes

Drive 4: 3 runs, 7 JC passes

Drive 5: 0 runs, 2 JC passes, 1 TC pass

Drive 6: 1 run, 2 JC passes

Drive 7: 0 runs, 3 TC passes

Drive 8: 0 runs, 1 TC pass

Drive 9: 4 runs, 1 TC pass

Drive 10: 1 run, 2 TC passes

Drive 11: 3 runs, 8 TC passes

Drive 12: 4 runs, 4 TC passes

Total: 8 runs, 18 JC passes before JC leaves

12 runs, 20 TC passes after JC leaves

Here's the play by play for the Giants game.

Drive 1: 2 runs, 1 pass

Drive 2: 0 runs, 3 passes

Drive 3: 1 run, 2 passes

Drive 4: 3 runs, 2 passes

Drive 5: 2 runs, 1 pass

Drive 6: 2 runs, 3 passes

Drive 7: 1 run, 2 passes

Drive 8: 3 runs, 3 passes

Drive 9: 5 runs, 5 passes

Drive 10: 3 runs, 0 passes

Drive 11: 1 run, 3 passes

Drive 12: 3 runs, 2 passes

Drive 13: 3 runs, 0 passes

Drive 14: (doesn't count)

TOTAL: 29 runs, 27 passes

Here's the play by play for the Vikings game.

Drive 1: 0 runs, 3 passes

Drive 2: 2 runs, 2 passes

Drive 3: 4 runs, 3 passes

Drive 4: 2 runs, 1 pass

Drive 5: 3 runs, 4 passes

Drive 6: 0 runs, 3 passes

Drive 7: 0 runs, 2 passes

Drive 8: 4 runs, 6 passes

Drive 9: 5 runs, 4 passes

Drive 10: 2 runs, 1 pass

Drive 11: 5 runs, 4 passes

Drive 12: 3 runs, 0 passes

Total: 30 runs, 33 passes

Here's the play by play for the Dallas game.

Drive 1: 2 runs, 6 passes

Drive 2: 2 runs, 3 passes

Drive 3: 2 runs, 2 passes

Drive 4: 5 runs, 7 passes

Drive 5: 1 run, 1 pass

Drive 6: 3 runs, 1 pass

Drive 7: 2 runs, 4 passes

Drive 8: 8 runs, 4 passes

Drive 9: 4 runs, 4 passes

Drive 10: 1 run, 1 pass

Drive 11: 2 runs, 1 pass

Drive 12: 3 runs, 0 passes

Total: 35 runs, 34 passes

The play by play for the Seattle game isn't online at nfl.com, so I can't analyze that game. But you can clearly see that our running game was working a lot more in the games that Collins was starting. This allowed the team to not put the win/loss sorely on the shoulders of the backup QB. But in Campbell's last 5 starts they were doing just that. During JC's final few games, he was moving the offense and getting them into a rhythm with no running game, sometimes passing the ball twice as many times as they ran it - and was still able to move the ball!