Joe Horn Vigilantee Criminal or Justified?

[DjTj]

Texas only managed to drop their violent crime rate 20 percent? What the hell is Texas doing wrong?

Yeah, it looks like the California violent crime rate dropped 51% between 1990 and 2006. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm

Maybe it's too many guns.

Maybe it's too many people. Freakonomics linked the crime rate drop to the legalization of abortion, and those laws are much more liberal in California ... after all, guns don't kill people, people kill people, and if you have fewer people ...

[JMS]

Maybe it's too many people. Freakonomics linked the crime rate drop to the legalization of abortion, and those laws are much more liberal in California ... after all, guns don't kill people, people kill people, and if you have fewer people ...

I was going to respond with that too.. It's actually the case that when Abortion was legalized in the United States it was legalized in California and New York first a year earlier. The Freakonomics economist Steven Levitt was able to show that crime in California and New York actually dropped ahead of the rest of the country by a year.... Linking the drop in crime rate in the 1990's to the abortion case almost to the day or month of the famouse 1970's court case.... ( note Levin also cites Clinton era policy of putting tens of thousands of more police on the streets with the drop too.. )...

It's a great book and only a very small part of one chapter deals with the abortion issue. He links all sorts of interesting events to seemingly unrealated causality, and then builts his case for the associations...

[stoshuaj]

"Call the police while a crime is being committed and you will be lucky not to be put on hold. Call the police when a crime is just been committed and you will be lucky if the police show up in hours.. rather than minutes."

Surely you wouldn't mind providing a supporting link for these two statements?

I understand that the first may be purely anecdotal and if so, I'll wait for the story of how this happened to you. However, in reference to the 2nd, since most law enforcements agencies publish their average response times, I'm sure you wouldn't mind being more specific.

[Destino]

I am a strong supporter of castle laws but I think Joe went too far. I don't have a problem with what he did I just wonder if castle laws will apply to someone elses property. Personally I'd like to see castle laws adotped in Virginia.

I hate to bring it up but what happened to Sean Taylor is a very real threat. If I run into an intruder in my house with the lights off I don't want to be the target of some power mad DA because it turns out he's unarmed when the lights come on after I've shot him. Also I don't see why people aren't allowed to defend themselves. If someone tries to carjack you, you should have every right to shoot them dead.

Things might just seem like stuff to some of you but not everything is easily replaced and it's not all about stuff. Frankly criminals shouldn't be given any protection at all.

[GibbsFactor]

I am a strong supporter of castle laws but I think Joe went too far. I don't have a problem with what he did I just wonder if castle laws will apply to someone elses property. Personally I'd like to see castle laws adotped in Virginia.

I hate to bring it up but what happened to Sean Taylor is a very real threat. If I run into an intruder in my house with the lights off I don't want to be the target of some power mad DA because it turns out he's unarmed when the lights come on after I've shot him. Also I don't see why people aren't allowed to defend themselves. If someone tries to carjack you, you should have every right to shoot them dead.

Things might just seem like stuff to some of you but not everything is easily replaced and it's not all about stuff. Frankly criminals shouldn't be given any protection at all.

Apply for a conceal license. Many many people carry and you never know it.

But there's a more compelling argument this thread is making.

More police and stricter laws?

or

More citizen arrests and awareness?

Which is better short term/long term?

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Sorry I do that.

I'm sorry, you stated that this wasn't a states issue. That is the topic I was responding too.

I agree with the logic you layed out there nobody has a right to kill criminals without good cause. Where we disagree is what good cause is. What you describe is not what happenned here. Joe attempted to stop a felony crime in progress. He did so brandishing a weapon. That is all within Joe's right, and any citizens right; IN TEXAS. While doing so, if those guys came at Joe, or caused Joe to fear for his life; then Joe had the right to use deadly force.

Suggesting that Joe didn't even have the right to go out and try to stop the crime as you contend is I guess our main disagreement. You seem to think citizens have a legal responsibility to cower under their beds when crime is being committed. Saddly I don't think you are completely wrong. I believe you are even correct. Only not in Texas.

If you took out the word "right" in your argument and substitued the words "Joe was privileged to..." then we would agree.

I really don't know how to say it any other way. I'm not debating whether or not he will get murder, I'm saying that he had no "RIGHT" to do it. He may have had a privilege to do so under Texas law, and so he may be found innocent of any wrongdoing. Like I've said A MILLION times now, that does not give him the "RIGHT" to enforce law. HUUUUGE DIFFERENCE between having the right to do something and being privileged to do the same thing.

For the record, the 10th time, all I am saying is that it is NOT A RIGHT.

[JMS]

Surely you wouldn't mind providing a supporting link for these two statements?

Personal experience man. Cops aren't the smooth professionals you see on TV. They're donut eating beurocrats who really just want to be left alone. Macho thugs we employ to keep us safe, more attacted to brandishing fire arms and ruffing up high schoolers than actually proactively serving the community.

Maybe your experience differs. I've come across some good cops, mostly out of state. I just have crossed paths with a lot more idiots.

I understand that the first may be purely anecdotal and if so, I'll wait for the story of how this happened to you. However, since most law enforcements agencies publish their average response times, I'm sure you wouldn't mind being more specific.

Yes it is purely anecdotal....

I won't go into all the details, but I'll leave you with a few events which have jaded my perception of the police.

(1) As a highschooler I was beaten by the police twice. The first time just before freshman year as I attempted to buy a coke in the stations vending machine and failed to remove my soccer cleats/ new rule I was unaware of. Riped my shirt, caried me out of the station, threw me to the ground. Four of them. Didn't hit me, didn't leave any marks... Just roughed me up and threatened me.

(2) few years latter, ( still in Highschool) I caught a club to the side of my head at a keg party. Cops showed up at the party which was being held across from the Mclean substation ( same place I was beat up a few years earlier).. I wasn't threatenning or even facing the cop.. Guess I wasn't moving fast enough though.. caught one right in the temple.... Party was peaceful, nobody out of control.. Cops showed up in their new riot gear and started beating people up.

(3) My Car was stolen in front of my house. I reported it. Cops found it and had the car for four hours and couldn't match it to the report I had on file with them. Idiots tried to accuse me of the damage caused by the theif, and I had to inform them it was a stolen car. I had to provide them with a copy of the report.... I said to the police woman as they finially figured out what was going on... So you had my car for four hours and couldn't tell it was stolen.. Does that mean you weren't even looking for it last night... She says... no that's a different part of our computer system..:doh:

(4) Few decades latter. Involved in a traffic dispute. I was on my way home from an O's game. No accident or anything. Some mental case was blocking three lanes of traffic on the beltway blocking traffic for about 30 minutes one evening around 1 am with his semi.. Another two trucks were blocking the other two lanes.... After being parked on the beltway for a half hour, I walked up to investigate what was going on. Dude pulled a gun on me and pointed it at my head. I reported it to the cops. I had the guys liscense plate (trailor) and a description of his truck. Cops didn't even want to take the report. I had to insist. They didn't lift a finger to catch the guy.

(5) Used to own a business which did a lot of credit card transactions over the phone. You can usually tell by the items ordered and where they wanted the items sent as to whether the card was stolen or not. Stolen cards are a big deal cause the store has to pay for the items themselves. Anyway, this one time I investigated a card cause the name on it sounded Jewish and the guy on the phone didn't seem to reasonable be jewish.. Ended up calling the card company, and then calling the card owner and confirming the card was stolen.. The Card owner didn't even know his card was stolen... Called the cops.. They could care less. Totally blew me off. I've got the address and the name of the guy with the stolen card.. Dude with the stolen card calls up, turns out he's a cop, using a stolen visa card. Dude threatenned to come down to my store and kill me when I explained the card was stolen and I'd reported it and him. ( DC Cop, I was in Fairfax)

(6) Last one.. Two years ago...Was up at Tyson's corner with my 2 year old daughter. In a parking gaurage right by the movie theaters, I pull up behind a SUV truck waiting to leave the garage. I leave a lot of room .. maybe two car lengths, cause the truck is stopped well short of the stop sign and something doesn't seem right... Truck puts it in reverse and crashes into the front of my car. Purposely backs into my car, and then takes off. I chaise the guy. We're in traffic and he's going across grass and median strips to get away from me. I have him boxed in a few times each time he goes overland to get away. Finally he's going like 80- 90 mph in the Tyson's parking lot and the office park across 123 from the mall to get away and I decide I'm just not going to drive that fast. I pull over and phone the police.

The dispatcher tells me to stay put, and an officer will be right there.... No joke six hours latter after I had called seven times, an officer arrives. I was calling every half hour for more than five hours.

Police aren't your friends. They aren't even competent. They are the lowest common denominator. Guys who think it's cool to walk around carrying guns and boss other folks around. They're paid not to see justice done, but rather to keep the machine moving. If they can do that by doing the right thing they will. If they can do that by rolling the machine over top of you; they'll do that too, it's just as good..

[JMS]

I am a strong supporter of castle laws but I think Joe went too far. I don't have a problem with what he did I just wonder if castle laws will apply to someone elses property. Personally I'd like to see castle laws adotped in Virginia.

I saw in interview on cnn with the author of the castle law. The texas castle law does not apply in Joes case, so says this Texas state senator. But he said that Texas had other laws which would support joe's actions.

Things might just seem like stuff to some of you but not everything is easily replaced and it's not all about stuff. Frankly criminals shouldn't be given any protection at all.

At least not while they're in the act of committing a crime.

[twa]

Anyone want to hazard a guess on what the violent crime rate has done in pacifist gun hating San Francisco between 1990 and 2006? Or New York? Or Boston? Or Chicago? Or nationally?

The NATIONAL violent crime rate dropped by 50 percent between 1993 and 2002.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-09-09-crime_x.htm

Texas only managed to drop their violent crime rate 20 percent? What the hell is Texas doing wrong?

Maybe it's too many guns.

Maybe we had less crime to start with?

In fact the rates I see are awful close,with my town being safer than yours :cool: EVEN Houston comes out ahead,maybe ya'll need more guns :laugh:

http://www.bestplaces.net/crime/?city1=50667000&city2=54856000

San Francisco, CA - Pasadena, TX

Crime Rates

FROM: State:City:

TO: State:City:

Crime Rates Pasadena, Texas San Francisco, California United States

Violent Crime 6 7 3

Property Crime 6 7 3

The crime indices range 1-10. A higher number corresponds with more crime. Our crime rates are based on FBI data.

Crime Rates Houston, Texas San Francisco, California United States

Violent Crime 6 7 3

Property Crime 7 7 3

The crime indices range 1-10. A higher number corresponds with more crime. Our crime rates are based on FBI data.

[Predicto]

Maybe we had less crime to start with?

In fact the rates I see are awful close,with my town being safer than yours :cool: EVEN Houston comes out ahead,maybe ya'll need more guns :laugh:

http://www.bestplaces.net/crime/?city1=50667000&city2=54856000

San Francisco, CA - Pasadena, TX

Crime Rates

FROM: State:City:

TO: State:City:

Crime Rates Pasadena, Texas San Francisco, California United States

Violent Crime 6 7 3

Property Crime 6 7 3

The crime indices range 1-10. A higher number corresponds with more crime. Our crime rates are based on FBI data.

Crime Rates Houston, Texas San Francisco, California United States

Violent Crime 6 7 3

Property Crime 7 7 3

The crime indices range 1-10. A higher number corresponds with more crime. Our crime rates are based on FBI data.

That's interesting information. It's also totally wrong, as far as I can tell.

According to this, San Francisco had 798 violent crimes per 100,000 population in 2005. Houston had 1172 violent crimes per 100,000 residents. Not even close.

http://www.morganquitno.com/cit05a.pdf

Similar results are found here.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004902.html

and here

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/documents/CIUS_2004_Section2.pdf

In all of them, Houston is shown to have significantly more violent crime and total crime per resident than San Francisco, anywhere from 25 to 45 percent more.

Now I will admit that San Francisco has more crime than Pasadena, Texas, since Pasadena is a suburb, not a city. I think a fair comparison would be Pasadena with Palo Alto, not San Francisco.

[twa]

Are you trying to convince us to shoot more criminals?

The stats I looked at from the FBI ranked Cali and Texas 7 and 8 :whoknows:

I love my town anyway,as I'm sure you do....but not many get to shoot two illegal Colombians while defending the home/property of a Vietnamese.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5359290.html

[Predicto]

Are you trying to convince us to shoot more criminals?

The stats I looked at from the FBI ranked Cali and Texas 7 and 8 :whoknows:

I love my town anyway,as I'm sure you do....but not many get to shoot two illegal Colombians while defending the home/property of a Vietnamese.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5359290.html

That's true. Never said old Joe was a racist. Just trigger happy.

[method man]

If Sean Taylor had a neighbor like Joe Horn, maybe he'd be alive today.

[twa]

A update...a plainclothes cop witnessed the shooting.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5362232.html

On Friday, Corbett described the shooting scenario that had been pieced together so far.

According to a transcript of Horn's 911 call, at 2 p.m., he became concerned that his next- door neighbor's home was being burglarized after hearing some glass break.

The dispatcher repeatedly urges Horn to stay in his house but Horn states that he doesn't feel it's right to let the burglars get away.

"Well, here it goes, buddy," Horn tells the dispatcher. "You hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."

The dispatcher replies: "Don't go outside."

Then the tape records Horn warning someone: "Move and you're dead!" Two quick shots can be heard, followed by a pause and then a third shot.

Corbett said the plainclothes detective, whose name has not been released, had parked in front of Horn's house in response to the 911 call. He saw the men between Horn's house and his neighbor's before they crossed into Horn's front yard.

Corbett believes neither Horn nor the men knew a police officer was present.

"It was over within seconds. The detective never had time to say anything before the shots were fired," Corbett said. "At first, the officer was assessing the situation. Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

When Horn confronted the suspects in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, Corbett said. However the men ignored his order to freeze.

Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb.

"The detective confirmed that this suspect was actually closer to Horn after he initiated his run than at the time when first confronted," said Corbett. "Horn said he felt in jeopardy."

Autopsy report

The wounded man crossed the street, collapsed and died, authorities said. At the same time, the other man had turned and ran away from Horn.

Horn swung his shotgun around after shooting the first man and fired at the second one after he entered the neighbor's yard, investigators said.

He was hit in the back but continued running until collapsing a few hundred yards down the street, Corbett said.

According to a final ruling, Ortiz died of shotgun wounds to his neck and torso, said Ellie Wallace, an investigator at the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office.

The report said that Torres died of shotgun wounds to his torso and upper left extremity.

Wallace could not confirm whether the men were shot in the back, saying the autopsy report only indicated they were shot in the torso.

Neither suspect was armed, but one had a "center punch," a 6-inch pointed metal tool, in his pocket that might be used as a weapon, authorities said.

Also, they were carrying a sack filled with more than $2,000 in cash and assorted jewelry believed taken in the burglary, police said.

[81artmonk]

Is he a criminal based upon our laws, sure. Should he be...NO!!!

Let's look at the facts. He witnessed two men breaking the law by robbing his neighbor. He took care of business. Whats fuzzy is whether these men attacked him or attempted to before being shot.

With how crapy our justice system is letting people off of missed paperwork, and other things, It's nice to see justice dished out oldschool style.

people will say, he should have let the courts take care of it, sure, but these guys shouldn't have been breaking the law either. For every action there is an equal reaction. Actions have consequences.

Not what I would have done, but I applaud his courage and action.

[stoshuaj]

lol, I had forgotten about this beauty.....

Thank you for your response to my questions.

To your diatribe, let me just say:

"Maybe your experience differs." slightly (add an lol at the end b/c if you only knew)

"Yes it is purely anecdotal...." yes, purely......

[Prosperity]

In a civillized state he would probably be considered a criminal

[twa]

In a civillized state he would probably be considered a criminal

If that is what you consider civilized consisting of I am all for being uncivilized.

They did just pass a ordinance to ban protests in neighborhoods though.

I must say I approve. :applause:

[[[ghost]]]

Couldn't he have just shot them in the knees? Like 7 times?

[Prosperity]

If that is what you consider civilized consisting of I am all for being uncivilized.

They did just pass a ordinance to ban protests in neighborhoods though.

I must say I approve. :applause:

I know you are TWA, no need to state the obvious

[Predicto]

]']Couldn't he have just shot them in the knees? Like 7 times?

Nah, shooting them in the back was easier.

[ironmic]

As some of you know I live in Houston and not too far from where this happened. I can tell you there is a mob of people down here supporting him...Protesting and making a big hoop-la. I feel as though he is a murderer and criminal and all I have heard from the people I debated this with down here is that Im a liberal yankee and soft.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Is he a criminal based upon our laws, sure. Should he be...NO!!!

Let's look at the facts. He witnessed two men breaking the law by robbing his neighbor. He took care of business.

It's really terrifying that you consider killing a man taking care of business.

[81artmonk]

It's really terrifying that you consider killing a man taking care of business.

No not really, In todays society we live in fear of those whom he shot, when it should be the other way around. The criminals should live in fear of those whom they violate.

[DGreenistheBest]

No not really, In todays society we live in fear of those whom he shot, when it should be the other way around. The criminals should live in fear of those whom they violate.

He could have shot an innocent bystander or a cop. It wasn't his responsibility. The 911 dispatcher told him not to shoot anyone because he had plain clothes cops out there. What if he sees guys coming out from his window and then steps on to his lawn to shoot who he assumes are the same guys, but he hits a plain clothes cop instead? His behavior was reckless and poorly thought out.