Joe Horn Vigilantee Criminal or Justified?

[twa]

As some of you know I live in Houston and not too far from where this happened. I can tell you there is a mob of people down here supporting him...Protesting and making a big hoop-la. I feel as though he is a murderer and criminal and all I have heard from the people I debated this with down here is that Im a liberal yankee and soft.

Hey IF the shoe fits....all I get is called uncivilized

btw...Howdy neighbor.

[jpillian]

Was interested to see that Joe Horn was cleared by a grand jury yesterday. Color me mildly surprised.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,374223,00.html

Texas Man Cleared of Shooting Suspected Burglars Next Door

HOUSTON — A Texas man who shot and killed two men he suspected of burglarizing his neighbor's home was cleared in the shootings Monday by a grand jury.

Joe Horn, 62, shot the two men in November after he saw them crawling out the windows of a neighbor's house in the Houston suburb of Pasadena.

Horn called authorities and told the emergency dispatcher he had a shotgun and was going to kill the men. The dispatcher pleaded with him not to go outside, but Horn confronted the men with a 12-gauge shotgun and shot both in the back.

"The message we're trying to send today is the criminal justice system works," Harris County District Attorney Kenneth Magidson said.

Horn's attorney, Tom Lambright, said his client was relieved by the grand jury's decision and never wanted to hurt anyone.

"He wasn't trying to take matters into his own hands," Lambright said. "He was scared. He was not playing cowboy."

Horn did not speak with reporters Monday, and had a "No Trespass" sign blocking the path to the front door of his home.

Lambright said Horn believed the two men had broken into his neighbor's home and that he shot them out of fear for his life when they came into his yard and threatened him.

"He wasn't acting like a vigilante," Lambright said. "He was well within his rights to do what he was doing."

The men Horn killed, Hernando Riascos Torres, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, were unemployed illegal immigrants from Colombia. Torres was deported to Colombia in 1999 after a 1994 cocaine-related conviction.

The episode touched off protests from civil rights activists who said the shooting was racially motivated and that Horn took the law into his own hands. Horn's supporters defended his actions, saying he was protecting himself and being a good neighbor to a homeowner who was out of town.

"I understand the concerns of some in the community regarding Mr. Horn's conduct," Magidson said. "The use of deadly force is carefully limited in Texas law to certain circumstances ... In this case, however, the grand jury concluded that Mr. Horn's use of deadly force did not rise to a criminal offense."

Lambright did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment from The Associated Press.

Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they are in mortal danger. In limited circumstances, people also can use deadly force to protect a neighbor's property; for example, if a homeowner asks a neighbor to watch over his property while he's out of town.

It is not clear whether the neighbor whose home was burglarized asked Horn to watch over his house.

[twa]

Was interested to see that Joe Horn was cleared by a grand jury yesterday. Color me mildly surprised.

I wasn't surprised at all :cool:

God bless Texas.

[Destino]

I guess my conservative leanings are coming out.. but I totally disagree with you and the majority of folks on the board. These guys were committing a crime and they outnumbered the guy with the gun. Joe had every right in the world to confront these criminals and try to stop the crime. He had every right in the world to use his gun to do so. If these criminals tried to come at Joe.. the shooting was justified. If these guys tried to run from Joe, the shooting was justified...

The only way this to my mind is even questionable is if these guys threw up their hands and gave up, when Joe confronted them... then if Joe gunned them down anyway... Then maybe Joe is guilty of a crime... Maybe because it would depend upon whether Joe felt he was in danger and not on what we here after the fact feel.

Looks like the criminals picked the wrong neighborhood to criminalize.....

I agree. Laws should not be written to divide people. If my neighbor is potentially in danger I shouldn't face charges for grabbing a gun and going to help if I can.

I struggled with this one a bit, I thought the opposite until I spoke with my father about it. He's the one that brought up the effects of preventing neighbors from helping eachother. The police can't be trusted to stop crimes in action.

[Dan T.]

I hope this doesn't disrupt his NFL career.

wink

[Major Harris]

The police can't be trusted to stop crimes in action.

or they can't be expected to stop crimes in action due to time constraints.

[jpillian]

He's the one that brought up the effects of preventing neighbors from helping eachother. The police can't be trusted to stop crimes in action.

That's a great point, Destino. I had similar thoughts, but for some reason that is a perspective that really resounds with me.

Nice to get good fatherly advice like that, isn't it?

[Dan T.]

The police can't be trusted to stop crimes in action.

The irony here is that in this case, the police WERE in position to stop this crime. The undercover cop was parked in front of Horn's house and witnessed Horn shooting the burglars.

[McMetal]

The irony here is that in this case, the police WERE in position to stop this crime. The undercover cop was parked in front of Horn's house and witnessed Horn shooting the burglars.

Maybe he should have gotten off his fat ass and did something then, instead of watching someone else take all the risk.

The guy is a freaking HERO. I wish I had neighbors like this man. The douchebags that live next to us would probably go back to sleep and not even bother to call the cops.

SO happy he got off...this should send a message to degenerate street scum everywhere.

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

Joe Horn is neither....he's a ****ing hero.

You want to bet that as long as he lives there, there will not be another break-in in the immediate area surrounding his house? Also, who knows if he saved innocent lives down the line? These robbers would've been back on the streets looking to steal again in a year and who knows if they would take a life in their next attempt.

[Destino]

or they can't be expected to stop crimes in action due to time constraints.

That's a better way to put it. I didn't mean to imply the police were doing something wrong by not having teleportation technology to arrive instantly on the scene. They just can't get there fast enough often enough to be relied on to save people when the crime is going down.

[Forehead]

I have to be honest, I really have no problem with what happened. I find it very hard to have any sympathy for a criminal of any sort, especially someone breaking into another persons house to take their property. I'm not saying award the guy (Horn) a medal, but I wouldn't have convicted him either, if I had been on the jury. No chance.

[sacase]

I feel like its hard to tell what actually happened, that is, there seem to be several differing accounts.

However, I think it should be pointed out that the shooter put himself in the position of danger. He did not have to go outside, and there was not indication that anyone was going to come after him. So, I don't think he was justified to shoot anyone based on fearing for his safety.

Also, a citizen does not have the "right" to stop a crime. There are situations when a citizen may have a "qualified privilege" to do so, but that is very different than a right.

Wrong, check the laws. Citzens have rights to make arrests and use appropriate force to execute those arrests. However, by doing so you open yourself up to civil liability. If memory serves citizens can arrest for any felony but not misdemeanor. However I am not 100% on that last part.

[redskinss]

im very torn on this one.

On the one hand i hate criminals and am glad that someone stepped up to do something about it, but on the other i think its a very slippery slope if we allow civillians to become judge jury and executionor and give them an automatic death sentence for there crime.

i think you should be able to protect yourself with deadly force but not your property, thats what the police and insurance is for.

Having said that i live in a crime free area and might have a different opinion if i didnt.

[Dan T.]

Maybe he should have gotten off his fat ass and did something then, instead of watching someone else take all the risk.

Way out of line, McMetal. He was right there, in harm's way, ready to apprehend these guys. Horn really didn't give him time to act. He saw Horn with the shotgun, and said that he feared Horn might mistake him as a getaway driver for the burglars. He actually had to duck at one point as Horn fired the shotgun then swung it around. On the audio, you can hear the dispatcher telling Horn to put the gun down, there are plainclothes cops on the scene.

So again, the irony in this case is that if Horn had done what he was told by the dispatcher, the burglars would have been caught by the cops with no loss of life.

[Forehead]

So again, the irony in this case is that if Horn had done what he was told by the dispatcher, the burglars would have been caught by the cops with no loss of life.

Then again, if one of the gentlemen was deported from this country previously for cocaine offenses, and then CAME BACK and committed more crimes...well, I'm sorry, I'm not sure there was any fate he was more deserving of.

It's not that I want this to become a common occurance, and I don't support "Boondock Saint" type justice. But, there are constantly stories about how so and so was beaten, robbed, and eventually killed...and you know what, for once it was the criminal who bit the bullet, so to speak.

Like I said, I don't want this to become a common occurance, but I just can't find anything here that I disagree with. Now if the plainclothes cop had been shot, we have a different story.

[Dan T.]

One statement from the undercover cop on the scene that mitigates Horn's actions somewhat - he says one of the burglars initially came toward Horn before peeling away and running toward the street when Horn shot him.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

He shot them in the back.

He said "they're getting away" to the 911 operator.

He was not in danger in any way, they were unarmed.

Robbers do not deserve a death penalty.

This is utterly ridiculous.

If he was defending himself or his family or even his neighbor, I would totally support him, but I will not even listen to someone that tries to make the argument that its worth it to kill people over some stolen property.

It seems like there was police officer either on the scene, or that the police arrived right after he shot them, and he was told that they were close.

This was way out of line.

This man should be charged with manslaughter.

It sickens me that people are defending him. Sure they were criminals but they were goddamn people too.

This is bull****.

[Forehead]

Robbers do not deserve a death penalty.

Why not? Before you get all huffy about it, let me explain. I'm not saying the robbers deserve a death penalty, so calm down.

Consider this. When a person gets shot, people often think or murder or homicide, but there can be a gray area. Self defense perhaps, or two kids playing with a gun they found that goes off.

If a person is caught going 110 mph on the interstate, a cop may pull them and then find out they have a pregnant wife in labor and are just trying to get to the hospital. Again, there a gray area.

There is no gray area with robbing and burglarizing someone's home. It is simply the act of helping yourself to something that does not belong to you; in any way, shape, or form. Something that someone else worked to possess, and you're trying to take it from them.

You see what I'm getting at? There's no "accident" with this sort of crime...you can't accidentally smash through someone's window and "accidentally" wind up with their jewelry and other valuables in your pockets.

Now do I think this merits a death penalty? Probably not. All I'm saying is that with crimes where there are no gray areas (burglary, drug distribution, etc.) the penalties should be much more severe than they currently are. Not death penalty severe, but severe.

However, I do see the side of the issue where people are supporting this man, and I understand their reasons. I personally would have never convicted him for what he did. I feel that if you need to steal from someone else, you're rolling the dice on what happens to you, and it's going to be hard for me to sympathize with you.

Doubly so if you're been previously convicted of cocaine offenses and deported from the country once before.

Like I said, just an idea, but if you're just going to go off like this...

It sickens me that people are defending him. Sure they were criminals but they were goddamn people too.

This is bull****.

...then maybe we shouldn't bother having the discussion.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

^^^

I think that shooting people over stolen property is ridiculous.

Our society is way too gun happy.

I get your point, theres no gray area in robbery and yes they probably deserve stricter punishment but killing them?

Shooting them in the back?

Not ok by me.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Like I said, just an idea, but if you're just going to go off like this...

...then maybe we shouldn't bother having the discussion.

I probably shouldn't have used such a harsh tone.

Extremely hungover, not a good day so far.

I get that people want the ability to defend themselves and their property.

If these guys were robbing his house, I may think differently...but probably not.

I find it a little hard to believe that two guys, wielding only a crowbar tried to go after a guy carrying a 12 gauge.

If they were stupid enough to do that then fine, shoot the ****s, I fully support self defense.

However, it seems to me that this guy shot them in the back as they were leaving the crime scene and there were police officers nearby.

Doesn't sit well with me.

[Forehead]

I think that shooting people over stolen property is ridiculous.

Our society is way too gun happy.

I get your point, theres no gray area in robbery and yes they probably deserve stricter punishment but killing them?

Oh, I don't disagree, I thought I said that earlier, I don't think people deserve death for robbery and burglary. However, the fact that they were committing a "no gray area" type of crime means that I find it impossible to sympathize with them for getting shot, if that makes sense.

Don't agree with it, but don't feel sorry for them in the slightest.

BTW, I agree with the statement about society being too gun happy. But then again, I've never owned a gun and have only been target shooting a few times in my life.

[LegionOfDoom]

The robbers crossed the line and action was taken. The judicial system prevailed.

[endzone_dave]

So I go over to my father-in-law's house to borrow something and his new neighbors who don't know me shoot me in the back as I'm walking out with his cordless drill.

There's a reason you can't let people take the law into their own hands.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Oh, I don't disagree, I thought I said that earlier, I don't think people deserve death for robbery and burglary. However, the fact that they were committing a "no gray area" type of crime means that I find it impossible to sympathize with them for getting shot, if that makes sense.

Don't agree with it, but don't feel sorry for them in the slightest.

BTW, I agree with the statement about society being too gun happy. But then again, I've never owned a gun and have only been target shooting a few times in my life.

I understand your point but my problem is that they were in no way threatening Mr. Horn.

I don't feel that bad for the guys, they were lowlife thugs but I just don't think what Horn did is justified.