Going for it on 4th Down

[worstSeat]

Go for it and make it? Brilliant call.

Go for it and get stopped short? Team sucks. Fire everyone.

Don't go for it and miss the FG, you're doubly dumb.

Look, if a Gibbs-Redskins team can't get 1 yard on 4th down, it's time to pack it in.

[skins4eva]

Just another gutless call by the skin's ultra-conservative braintrust. At least the calls are consistent - you know what's coming.

I've had an on-going problem this year with JG's mantra that every game is going to be close. It's become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I guess his thinking is if they're close at the end, they might be able to win the game. The problem with trying to play every game close is that you have no margin for error. The fact is, this team is not built or coached to be anywhere near error-free. I'd rather he said to his team and the press that they're going to try to blow out (or at least comfortably beat) every opponent. If he were to publically announce such a policy, I sure his mindset/play calling would be more aggressive.

JO

I completely agree--it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It seems to me that Gibbs just doesn't have enough faith in the team/players. He plays it way too close to the vest, and in today's NFL, that leads to 8-8.

[Hail2TheRedskins!]

My point is not what he says, but that he really believes what he says in his heart. It's not coach speak to Gibbs. As a result, he coaches in a cowardly fashion. Do you think Belichik (sp) spends a lot of time worrying about his opponents' strengths? He focuses on his team's strengths and his opponents' weaknesses. Gibbs, on the other hand, is consumed with the opponent's strengths. I hope you can see the difference.

I understand what you're saying but I don't agree. Much like any other coach he evaluates the opponents strengths and weaknesses and looks for ways to negate the former and take advantage of the latter. I think he does an excellent job of that which is why we can compete with Dallas even with a banged up team. As I stated in an earlier post I do think he made the wrong call on this particular 4th down but I don't attribute that mistake to cowardice.

[Peregrine]

I have to agree there. I know at the time I didnt like the call that left us a yard short(I know once we ran for it on 3rd and 3 for no apparent reasons and got stuffed short yet again). To me, it doesnt make any sense to send in a really young kicker for a 50 yd fg when, while hes reliable, he just doesnt have that range. Meanwhile the offense was rolling, and its only 1 yard down at their own 30. I really had a bad feeling about that.

Good teams take chances. Not just random chances for the sake of taking chances, but smart educated choices based on the flow of the game and your team. We saw that with Andy Reid and Phily, we see that with the Pats, we see that with the Steelers, we dont see that with the Redskins. Granted, last game was a big step forward, but we still have a long way to go. Its a mentality.

[cakmoney61]

I understand what you're saying but I don't agree. Much like any other coach he evaluates the opponents strengths and weaknesses and looks for ways to negate the former and take advantage of the latter. I think he does an excellent job of that which is why we can compete with Dallas even with a banged up team. As I stated in an earlier post I do think he made the wrong call on this particular 4th down but I don't attribute that mistake to cowardice.

To get right to the point, I don't believe Gibbs has faith in his own team. And he coaches like he doesn't have any faith. His coaching is really hurting this team!

[Ghost of]

Absolutely I considered the score. As soon as I saw Suisham run out there I thought, "Damn. He's going to miss this, Dallas is going to get the ball plus seven free yards, march down the field and tie this son of a ***** up."

As did I. Even if he made it, wussing out in that particular situation gave Dallas life.

Look, Dallas is maybe the second best team in the league (now that Indy is hobbled.) You don't go INTO THEIR HOUSE and hope long distance FGs and 'gritty' play alone will win the game.

You know, last year, I sported a signature towards the end that parodied Elton John's "Indian Sunset."

The last lines were (paraphrasing) :

Joe Gibbs legacy is dead (note, his legacy won't truly die, it was made in frustration)

He Relied on a kicker's leg

Sure, we were a bad team last year but even last year we could see that decisions Gibbs was making, the spirit of them not just some matrix of playcalling that any apologist on this board can find ways to defend, were hurting this team.

What also offends is the attempt to stifle the debate by accusing people without any evidence that they are 'hindsighting' it when ART HIMSELF posted after a WIN vs. Miami (that looks terribly overrated now) that the decision to kick the FG on first or second down (can't recall now which) was a bad call.

The game threads and chat testify to the fact that people were upset AT THE MOMENT it happened.

And NFL COACHES were in the booth upset with the decision. I guess they're just stupid laymen critics too, eh? We all appreciate Utah's contributions when it comes to football knowledge but I think I can point to our own assistants in the booth as perhaps more reliable gauges of whether the call represented a 'good' or 'gimme' decision.

It was one of the worst decisions I've seen Gibbs make in a long line of them since 2004.

With each poor decision, the amount of mindless apologists, does shrink.

This isn't like we're NE and we blew a game or two in the last few years and we're just being spoiled brats and not conceding that ALL coaches and players will make mistakes.

It's not about yesterday it's about what we've often seen for almost 4 years now. How often are we going to hear that our coaches have learned their lesson, that GIbbs is finally getting it?

Have you been watching this team since 2004? Have you not seen the posts about how many halftime leads we've blown? This isn't an aberration that should be taken in context, it's a pattern.

It's gotten so bad that we're rounding the bend from conservatism to fear, which is now just leading to irrational decisions altogether (riskier, in fact, than the 'gamble' by all known statistical measures.)

[snafu]

I was just glad they made the descission without any kind of Hesitations or confusion

[seantaylor=god]

Great thread. I agree 100%. We needed to go for it. If it was 45 yarder or less I can see kicking it.

[Hail2TheRedskins!]

To get right to the point, I don't believe Gibbs has faith in his own team. And he coaches like he doesn't have any faith. His coaching is really hurting this team!

Going for the field goal does not show a lack of faith in his team. If anything he is putting excessive faith in his field goal unit. Also, there have been many times this year when Gibbs has gone for it on 4th down. My feeling about the way he talks about his players is that he thinks the world of them.

[Ghost of]

Going for the field goal does not show a lack of faith in his team. If anything he is putting excessive faith in his field goal unit. Also, there have been many times this year when Gibbs has gone for it on 4th down. My feeling about the way he talks about his players is that he thinks the world of them.

Except that would mean that everything we've ever witnessed about every other coach, good and bad, does not apply to GIbbs.

I've heard that before. FUnny how no team in the NFL wants to put undue weight on the kicker's shoulders but all of a sudden Gibbs has faith in them.

Is that why we got rid of John Hall? Because he was just so damn automatic that Gibbs had all this faith in him? What about Novak?

Please. Gibbs may have faith in his players but if you do, you trust yourself to get the 1 yard and at least have a fresh set of downs

And have you heard Gibbs offer reasons about previous decisions: He CLEARLY and EXPLICITLY states his fears of fumbles, holding calls, etc.

This would indicate a lack of faith. That's like your boss saying he played it safe on some decision because he thought his team would make a clerical error, make a bad joke and blow an account right before the contract was signed, etc.

I don't buy it and point of fact, it ain't true.

[great28]

The point is this. This coaching staff loses so many close games by not taking enough chances. This is not rocket science. This team is better then it's record. It's the conservative coaching that is killing them. They think to damn much -- and need to put the ball in Jason's hand. We could have beat Dallas on the road in a hostile environment and lost to Green Bay by only three points -- the two best teams in the NFC. Playing not to lose versus playing to win is a very subtle difference.

By playing close to the vest, this teams record is where it should be 5 - 5. You win some, you lose some. However, if we played more aggressive we would probably be something like 7-3 -- at least right now.

You have to play relentlessly -- and keep the pressure on -- keep teams on their heels. We have kicked far too many field goals in the last three games -- and field goals will not beat the elite teams. We've lost two our of our last three games, and, won the Jets game on last second field goal in ovetime -- even when the coach was afraid to try and convert a 3rd and one.

Here's the deal: We can probably play close to the vest and beat 50% of the teams in the league. But, to beat the elite teams -- you have to play with a killer mind-set.

Every game in this league does not have to be close -- if you have a decent team. If you think every game will be close -- you will play to keep them close by always taking the safe route.

Right now -- the Packers actually believe they're good -- and you can see it. They have swagger now. They were not as confident say four games ago.

The Redskins with confidence could be an exceedingly dangerous team -- but only if the coaches allow them to be. They need to allow that down during this critical stretch run.

I just want to know why it takes our million dollar coaching staff to see things about this team that are obvious to everyone else.

Joe should have gone for it on the first field goal attempt. No excuses there. I remember when we were 11 - 0 in 1991 and Jimmy Johnson and the young Cowboys came into Washington and won. The Cowboys were going for it on fourth down. Throwing Hail Mary's before half time -- and won the damn game. That temperment set the tone for the whole game. They were taking no prisoners. That team went on to win three straight Super Bowls the next three years. But the mind set started there. You play to win the game.

That first fourth down was our opportunity to set the same tone. Let Dallas know we came to play with an aggressive attack mind set. Plus, it gives confidence to your team -- that the coach believes in you. Gibbs just does not seem to have a feel of when to make that critical mommentum changing decision.

Wow. Just wow. Amen my brother. :notworthy :applause:

[stroupjr]

Don't act suprised.

[cakmoney61]

Going for the field goal does not show a lack of faith in his team. If anything he is putting excessive faith in his field goal unit. Also, there have been many times this year when Gibbs has gone for it on 4th down. My feeling about the way he talks about his players is that he thinks the world of them.

His decisions (on the sidelines during games) speak much louder than his words about how he feels about the capabilities of his team.

The injuries and his coaching are killing this team!

[Hail2TheRedskins!]

Except that would mean that everything we've ever witnessed about every other coach, good and bad, does not apply to GIbbs.

Huh? Are you trying to say we're not judging Gibbs by the same standard as other coaches? If so, then I disagree. Every call Gibbs makes is second guessed on this board.

I've heard that before. FUnny how no team in the NFL wants to put undue weight on the kicker's shoulders but all of a sudden Gibbs has faith in them.

I think we use our kicker in a way very similar to every other team. I doubt that other teams have a much higher rate of going for it on 4th. I have not seen the stats, however. Are you saying that we are way below average?

Is that why we got rid of John Hall? Because he was just so damn automatic that Gibbs had all this faith in him? What about Novak?

Like every other team we are looking for a kicker that can be very reliable. Again, I think we use our kicker the same as every other team.

Please. Gibbs may have faith in his players but if you do, you trust yourself to get the 1 yard and at least have a fresh set of downs

Not going for it on 4th in this case was a mistake IMO. But its not like we ALWAYS kick the FG. I think we go for it with about the same frequency as most other teams. And there are plenty of times when the FG is the right call.

And have you heard Gibbs offer reasons about previous decisions: He CLEARLY and EXPLICITLY states his fears of fumbles, holding calls, etc.

This would indicate a lack of faith. That's like your boss saying he played it safe on some decision because he thought his team would make a clerical error, make a bad joke and blow an account right before the contract was signed, etc.

I don't buy it and point of fact, it ain't true.

Look, football decisions are all about risk management. You have to consider the bad things that can happen as well as your chances for success. In your business analogy you might change your decision if there is another company that can only succeed if they can cause your company to fail. They are working full time to defeat you. They might try some dirty tricks (force a fumble). Also, some government agency (refs) might step in at any time (at their discretion) and charge your company with a crime (penalty).

[HateYanksDukeCowboys]

But really, how many times do you see a QB fall down for a 1 yard gain on a QB sneak? Happens every week, throughout the league, but not RedskinsLand.

All we had to do is let our 6"5 230lb QB fall down, and we keep the Cowboys on their heels and gasping for breath.

Ummmmm, Portis is WAY too small to be our short yardage back.

QB SNEAK QB SNEAK QB SNEAK QB SNEAK QB SNEAK QB SNEAK QB SNEAK QB SNEAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bulldog]

how about a rollout by Campbell with the chance to either run it in or throw it to Cooley or one of th receivers on the run?

[mgilbo1]

nope... can't do a qb sneak... you gotta hand it off to portis who can barely gain a yard on TB. What a joke call by saunders.

[zoony]

QB SNEAK QB SNEAK QB SNEAK QB SNEAK QB SNEAK QB SNEAK QB SNEAK QB SNEAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That would have failed too. The Bucs had their entire defense keying on the sneak. It just so happened that Portis ran it right into the same area where Campbell would have sneaked it :doh:

Seriously, that was a TERRIBLE play call. An outside toss or play action pass would have been an easy TD. Watch the replay. There were at least 7 TB defenders within 4 yards of center

[HateYanksDukeCowboys]

how about a rollout by Campbell with the chance to either run it in or throw it to Cooley or one of th receivers on the run?

that's a much better option than letting our 205lb RB run middle after giving the defense enough time to penetrate the line of scrimmage.

[HateYanksDukeCowboys]

That would have failed too. The Bucs had their entire defense keying on the sneak. It just so happened that Portis ran it right into the same area where Campbell would have sneaked it :doh:

Seriously, that was a TERRIBLE play call. An outside toss or play action pass would have been an easy TD. Watch the replay. There were at least 7 TB defenders within 4 yards of center

no it would have succeeded. with the QB sneak the play is over before the defense has time to penetrate the line of scrimmage.

you are right though, the play they called was the worst possible one to make.

[mgilbo1]

it was a foot guys. We have one of the biggest QB's in the game. We could have made a foot with a sneak. geez.

[terpskins]

How easy it is to convert on 4th when you spread it out a little.

Hopefully, they've figured it out after 11 games.

[DjTj]

On that play at the 5, Yoder didn't really get a good lead block and it was the DE pushing to the inside that stopped Portis, not Derrick Brooks. If there was a decent lead block or if Portis had bounced it to the outside we would have gotten the first down.

...I do like how we just go for it on 4th now without even thinking about it though.

[jthor99]

2 for 3 on 4th down ill take it

[Fan035]

First of all, you needed two scores - should have gone for the field goal. Second of all, if you're going for it, do you have to give it to Portis right up the middle? Portis up the middle, Portis up the middle, Portis up the middle. If I know they're calling that play, the opposition must know it too.

:mad: