Going for it on 4th Down

[Utah]

When playing the what-if game, you know how Coach Gibbs is going to approach it. He felt that he had a better chance of kicking the FG with his stud kicker (funny how we don't ***** about that this year) then trying to make it on 4th and 1.

The man will not give up points if he can get them. A smart move.

Football is an emotional sport and the coach who makes decisions like that doesn't coach for very long.

It sucks being 5-5, but I am pretty damn happy that we do not have someone at the helm who will become stupid when the stakes are so high.

[SkinsFan_in_TX]

Simply not true in Texas Stadium.

No wind, turf, the middle of the field is a raised about a yard or 2.

He does make a good point. Texas Stadium is VERY friendly to kickers. It is the only stadium like it. Very nice turf and the field is convex. The middle of the field is slightly over one yard higher than the sidelines.

[HateYanksDukeCowboys]

When playing the what-if game, you know how Coach Gibbs is going to approach it. He felt that he had a better chance of kicking the FG with his stud kicker (funny how we don't ***** about that this year) then trying to make it on 4th and 1.

The man will not give up points if he can get them. A smart move.

Football is an emotional sport and the coach who makes decisions like that doesn't coach for very long.

It sucks being 5-5, but I am pretty damn happy that we do not have someone at the helm who will become stupid when the stakes are so high.

He actually made the riskier call.

[dfbovey]

The team who scores the most points deserve to win.

Right, and we lost.

The fact that you don't care what field you are on, is why you are not a NFL coach.

There are lots of reasons why I'm not an NFL coach.

Because a Coach takes all those things into play. You say - It's 4th and 1. 50 yard kick. Where are we playing, whats the weather like, who is our kicker, have we been getting 1 yard when we need it, how is their D, what is the score...etc...

Yeah, and our coach took all that information and made a gutless call.

They don't say "Well gee - We should go for it so we "Deserve to win"

We deserved to lose, and part of the reason is gutless decision making, including trusting a kicker who's not really accurate from that distance to make a 50 yarder. Not to mention running the ball on the previous play, when you needed 3-4 yards for the first down. It's gutless.

But yeah, the conditions for kicking a FG were nice...

[Utah]

Gee, lets review. Give the ball up to the Cowboys by trying to score points or give the ball up to the Cowboys by trying to get a yard?

The line of thinking is simple, the chances of getting the first and then scoring off of a successful conversion or taking a shot at what was gimmie points from our kicker who has been pretty damn good all year.

I like the call and it sucked it didn't work out.

[dfbovey]

How many 50 yarders has our kicker made this year? Or in his career in general?

Not many. He's been ok this year but it's not like he's the 2nd coming of Mark Mosely.

[Oldfan]

According to a study done a few years back, NFL coaches made the wrong decision something like 900 out of 1,100 chances (Romer: It's fourth down and what does the Bellman Equation say?) The study showed conservatism in risk management. However, the study was done using first quarter calls with no score on the board.

If the score has been nothing to nothing, going for it would have clearly been the right move on the road against a team with superior talent because calculated gambles would be called for. Up by seven though, it was a tossup in my opinion.

I would have gone for it, but I can't criticize the call.

[HateYanksDukeCowboys]

Gee, lets review. Give the ball up to the Cowboys by trying to score points or give the ball up to the Cowboys by trying to get a yard?

The line of thinking is simple, the chances of getting the first and then scoring off of a successful conversion or taking a shot at what was gimmie points from our kicker who has been pretty damn good all year.

I like the call and it sucked it didn't work out.

That field goal was a Gimmie? Hang on just a minute; Jan Stenerud's on the other line. He says you must have stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

[Larry Brown #43]

If the score has been nothing to nothing, going for it would have clearly been the right move on the road against a team with superior talent because calculated gambles would be called for. Up by seven though, it was a tossup in my opinion.

Oldfan, your use of the phrase "calculated gambles" is interesting. To me, kicking the field goal was in fact more of a gamble because (a) we're less likely to hit the 50-yarder than we would be to convert the 4th and 1, and ( the downside of missing the field goal is greater than the downside of getting stuffed on 4th and 1, because missing the field goal gives Dallas bonus field position, whereas getting stuffed does not.

[Hunter_R]

He actually made the riskier call.

I was about to say. Joe Gibbs got just about the worst possible outcome for a move that would have gained very little.

[Bring_Riggo_Back]

I didn't like the call at the time..but the Skins had a chance to win in the end so it was the right call.....Stupid thread.

Let's look at it all in a logical, rational way ...

The Cowgirls (sorry, but back in the day we never even uttered their name) average 32.9 points a game.

By playing through Gibbs logic, that would be 11 field goals. Or maybe we get lucky and pull off 2 or 3 touchdowns. That still leaves the kicker with a minumum of 4 field goals necessary to win. That also corrolates into possessions to completion, i.e. no 3 and outs, scoring somehow on most every possession.

That leaves no room for error. None. Nada.

We are a beat up team. Physically, mentally, and emotionally. Anyone that says emotions don't direct the course of a game slipped in the shower and banged their head on the soap dish. This is a game of momentum, highs as well as lows. This is not news to even the most remedial football fan.

The coach must create an aura of invincibility that every player buys into.

Going for long distance field goals time and time again tells any player, " I have no faith in your ability to succeed."

It's that simple. Players feed from that. They are human. They have brains and feelings. They understand what going for a field goal on 4th and 1 means. It means we suck and the coach doesn't think we can pound out a lonely, stinking yard. This ain't Madden 2007 people. We're dealing with real humans.

A coach's biggest challenge is not X's and O's. It's managing people. Vince Lombardi didn't win with superior talent, he won with superior attitude. He made each player feel invincible, because if you weren't, you didn't play for Lombardi. Attitude creates reality. Otherwise the "Cinderella Story" concept of the underdog always has a chance is moot. Lombardi also understood you treat different people differently. Each persons motivation is different. You must find that button and push the beegeesus out of it. Some need to be coddled and some need their butts kicked. But you get the same result despite different methods.

Gibbs main problem since his return is the same problem every failed coach of late has. He believes his system is superior and more important to the people and situations involved. The "Gibbs System", in his estimation, is a plug and play method. He believes he can put anyone on the field at any given time, and his system will prevail over the obvious deficiencies the player may have. Albeit, an outdated system that my 7 year old can figure out before every play. Run, run, screen. Run, screen, draw. 700 pages and doesn't include a single crossing route for a wide receiver.

Shanahan has that same ideal, how is it working out for him this year?

Sometimes a coach must tighten the reigns and sometimes he must let the mustangs run wild.

Anyone here think Wade Phillips is a master motivator?

How can (and OMG does this pain me to say) we define the amazing transformation in Randy Moss this year? A certified PIA with unlimited potential that nobody wanted to touch with a ten foot pole last off season. Except Billocheat. Simply he said get ur butt in here, work hard, keep your mouth shut, I guarantee nothing except we will kick butt. Why is Moss so happy? Cause he's WINNING. Why is he winning? Because Billocheat will accept nothing less.

Winners play to win. Winners NEED to win. Winning is contagious. A cliche, but true nonetheless.

In the 80's the "Hoggs" were considered exactly that. A massive, oversized offensive line that could move and shift with grace and ease. Our offensive line is average at best, and frankly, offensive. When your O-Line is this suspect, you must allow your QB the leeway to improvise and move. Anyone watch Romo sits to pee? His line collapses all around him, in front of him, behind him. Somewhere in his brain it clicks, I CAN'T SEE! So miraculously, he MOVES so he can see!

He's also fearless. He doesn't care. He keeps shooting until he hits something. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But the overall seems to be working pretty good. But at no time, does anyone tell him to quit it.

JC has a bright future. He's definitely got the tools. More tools than he's given options to use. Remember. He played 100% better when directing the no huddle. And why is this? No time the think, or over-think. Just do. Play. React. QB's who aim never hit anything. QB's who just play the game tear it up. It's the try and beat me mentality. Gibb's will tell you it was the system, the play calling. BS. It was a softer defense and JC not thinking too much. When he overthinks, he under or overthrows. When he has no time to think, it's right on the money.

Attitude ... attitude ... attitude. This thread says it all. Wrong attitude Gibbs.

I could argue this all day. It's a simple concept that escapes us time and time again.

We had it once. We had a dominant attitude. We had "we don't care what you do - we're gonna run you right over." We need it back.

And a receiver over 5'8" would be nice.

We will never win without KILLER instinct. This Mr. Nice Guy is a model Redskin ideal needs to hit the circular file. Give us some nasty.

We, as die hard fans, deserve nothing less.

[SkinsWizCubsDukes]

It's these coaching decisions that take the game out of the players hands. Missed extra points and missed field goals have lost games.

That said, if he made it, we were in a good position, if he missed a bad one...after the fact it was for sure the wrong call. I am not at all surprised. Our defense would have played better knowing that our coach wanted to go for it on 4th down even if we didn't make it. Did they give up the TD right after that?

[Oldfan]

Oldfan, your use of the phrase "calculated gambles" is interesting. To me, kicking the field goal was in fact more of a gamble because (a) we're less likely to hit the 50-yarder than we would be to convert the 4th and 1, and ( the downside of missing the field goal is greater than the downside of getting stuffed on 4th and 1, because missing the field goal gives Dallas bonus field position, whereas getting stuffed does not.

You might be right. I'm not sure what the odds might be of suisham hitting the FG. He's a pretty good kicker. Last year, the Skins weren't very good on fourth and short (56%).

[skins4eva]

Go for it and make it? Brilliant call.

Go for it and get stopped short? Team sucks. Fire everyone.

Totally disagree. If you go for it on 4th and 1 or shorter and you don't make it, you don't deserve to win. However, if you do make it, it could change the entire game. Moreover, it shows that the coach has faith in his offense and his players to pick up one yard, and it deflates a defense.

I agree with the original poster--taking the ultra-conservative route in almost every game has cost us big time--in this year and in years past. We were playing a division opponent, on the road with one of the most potent offenses in the league--field goals weren't going to cut it. Additionally, by going for it on 4th and 1 (and likely converting it--I mean we have a 6'5 QB who can run--what about running the QB sneak on a quick count against a 3-4 defense????????????????) we would have extended our drives, which means keeping the ball out of Dallas's hands.

We will continue to lose games with Gibbs's play-not-to-lose, ultra conservative mentality. The NFL these days is no country for old men, and Gibbs's in-game management decision making are holding us back and costing us opportunities.

[Stricknn]

[bring_Riggo_Back]

Great post! My sentiments exactly!

11. Please do not use the “Quote” feature to quote huge blocks of text or pictures. If you would like to respond to the contents of a particular post, simply quote the sentence or idea that you're commenting upon, not necessarily the entire post. It wastes space on the database and unnecessarily extends and clutters threads.

Thanks. ~ihs

[Stricknn]

You might be right. I'm not sure what the odds might be of suisham hitting the FG. He's a pretty good kicker. Last year, the Skins weren't very good on fourth and short (56%).

Shaun's attempted 2 field goals over 50 yards in his career, (ATL and St. Louis) and he's 1-2. 56% plus momentum> 50% and great field position for the Cowgirls

[jbowman]

I think someone needs to remind Gibbs what Redskins football is. Redskins football is 4th and 1, I'm going to send out the jumbo package, and Sellers is going to smash into someone like their last name is Dawkins, and Portis going to get that yard, and probably more.

Then again, maybe we just don't have the O-Line for Redskins football

[Shilsu]

While I can understand defending the call, I can't believe some people are reasoning that it was to take the "sure points" and since the Redskins had a chance to win the game at the end, it was the "right call". What???

If the Redskins hadn't converted the 4th down, and assuming everything else went the exact same way for the rest of the game, the Redskins would still have had a chance to win the game at the end.

Let's look at the pros and cons of each choice:

Kicking the Field Goal

You can make 3 points.

But if you miss, you give the ball back to the Dallas Cowboys on the 40-yard line, which we did and on that drive, the Dallas Cowboys SCORED SEVEN POINTS. Furthermore, if you miss, you kill all the momentum. What momentum? Not only were we up 7-0 at that point, but WE STARTED ON OUR OWN 4-YARD LINE AND WE DROVE ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THEIR 32-YARD LINE. NOW WE HAVE NO FAITH THAT WE CAN CONVERT 1-YARD?

Going For It

You can make that 1-yard and gain a new set of downs. Which gives you two likely scenarios: 1) A better chance of making a field goal. 2) A chance at a touchdown drive.

But if you don't make it, you give the ball back to the Dallas Cowboys on the 32-yard line. Let's say we automatically did not make that 1-yard. Who's to say that those 8 extra yards couldn't have prevented Dallas from scoring those 7 points after we missed the field goal?

So here's what resulted from our field goal.

1. We failed to score ANY points.

2. It killed our momentum.

3. Dallas drove 60-yards to score a touchdown.

GREAT. That's potentially a 14 POINT SWING.

If we want to take a chance at "sure points", why not just kick a field goal from any point on the field, whether it be a 109 yarder or a 9 yarder.

[dieselfan44]

I feel that there is no choice but to go...You have to figure that at some point Dallas will score some points. You've got to take the opportunity to continue a drive that has Dallas on its heels and go for the TD. Kicking there was a dagger in my chest.

[skins4eva]

A previous poster hit the nail on the head--not going for it in those situations shows a lack of KILLER INSTINCT...Gibbs has none...and we as fans, and the players especially, deserve it.

[zCommander]

But really, how many times do you see a QB fall down for a 1 yard gain on a QB sneak? Happens every week, throughout the league, but not RedskinsLand.

All we had to do is let our 6"5 230lb QB fall down, and we keep the Cowboys on their heels and gasping for breath. Later in the game, in the 4th Quarter, with a 4th and 1, we made the same decision and settled for the three.

At some point in time, we're gonna have to start going for it on 4th down and upgrade our Field Goal membership to a Touchdown membership. Winning teams go for it on 4th down and score Touchdowns.

I could swear it was that pick in the last 2 minute of the game that changed it all. It was not the kick. Damn JC should have a ran on that play. I think there is already a thread on that as well.

It is better to be down by 5 then by 8.

Oh but since you are going to nit-pick on just one call - which is pretty stupid IMO - it was the blown coverages on TO that sealed the game for the Cowpukes. So going for it on this play is actually really irrelevant.

It is also possible I might have been watching a totally different game.:doh:

[Larry Brown #43]

As soon as I saw Suisham trot out there, before he even attempted the kick, I was saying to anyone who would listen, "Oh crap! This is terrible. When this game is over we're going to look back at this decision with regret." And, well, here we are.

Having said that, I don't want to take anything away from the effort of this team. They truly did "fight their guts out" and gave Dallas all they could handle. I'm more proud of this team now than I have been in a while.

[KingGibbs]

As soon as I saw Suisham trot out there, before he even attempted the kick, I was saying to anyone who would listen, "Oh crap! This is terrible. When this game is over we're going to look back at this decision with regret." And, well, here we are.

Having said that, I don't want to take anything away from the effort of this team. They truly did "fight their guts out" and gave Dallas all they could handle. I'm more proud of this team now than I have been in a while.

I swear I said the exact same thing.

I haven't had as much hope and belief after a loss as I do/did today. Unfortanately, that hope is waning with six games left. We can do this though.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Did anyone see highlights of the Indy game? With 2 minutes to play the Colts had a chip-shot FG to take the lead and faced a 4th-and-1 from the 4 yard line. Dungy opted to go for it to run the remaining time off the clock and win the game as time ran out. Guess what? They got the first down, ran the clock down to 4 seconds, and won the game.

What do we do in a much more obvious "go for it" situation? We kick. The league is a bit different now. The good teams are realizing that you need TDs to win games (especially against the better teams). We haven't gotten that memo and we've been burned a few times.

I'm not going to argue that we lost the game on that call. But I was livid when I saw the FG unit come onto the field and we lost another close game where our coach played it conservative...so it's only natural to associate those two things.

[RODAN1054]

Can't seem to find a thread dedicated to this topic, so here goes:

Winning teams go for it on 4th down. With regularity. I'm loathe to question the ongoing play-calling throughout a given game, b/c I trust the coaches have a strategy that fits within the entire scope of the game in terms of a run-pass ratio.

I am however, SICK AND TIRED of the critical game-changing calls being botched week in and week out. I'm not talking about 4th and 3 on the 50 here, but rather, the never-ending instances of NOT going for it on 4th and 1, or even less than 1 while in the opponent's territory.

We had a chance to really take a solid lead in the 1st half yesterday. Our offense was rolling down the field for their 2nd successful drive of the day, and we were already leading 7-0. Confronted with a 4th and less than 1 on the 33 yard line, the default, automatic decision by Gibbs was to kick a 50 yard FG, of which less than 50% are made. If you miss, which we did, the Boys get the ball on the 40, not the 33. If you go for it, and still miss, the Boys probably get it on the 33 or thereabouts.

But really, how many times do you see a QB fall down for a 1 yard gain on a QB sneak? Happens every week, throughout the league, but not RedskinsLand.

All we had to do is let our 6"5 230lb QB fall down, and we keep the Cowboys on their heels and gasping for breath. Later in the game, in the 4th Quarter, with a 4th and 1, we made the same decision and settled for the three.

At some point in time, we're gonna have to start going for it on 4th down and upgrade our Field Goal membership to a Touchdown membership. Winning teams go for it on 4th down and score Touchdowns.

I seem to remember everyone downing Barry Switzer for going on 4th and even firing him for thr 4th and 1 call, your a genuis if it works. Had Gibbs gone for it and missed, and dallas scores fans woulb be crying Gibbs an idiot after that fact