Pittsburgh article on the Campbell hit

[ucfSKINS]

BS. If that had happened to Ben, the Steelers players and fans would've gone nuts. Just because Campbell hasn't won a super bowl ring yet, it makes it ok to hit him below the waist? Nope, don't think so. Horrible assesment.

[paloosa]

The article was saying that it is football and what Brett Keisel did was wrong and that the fans should remember that injuries occur. My interruptation was that the writer was saying that it can happen to Big Ben and that the fans should not gloat or be happy that it happened.

I don't agree with everything it said either. Saying that the Palmer hit, which was similar, had a bigger impact than this one is dead wrong. It may not be a big impact to them because it didn't happen to Big Ben but it is everything to us. Jason Campbell is the Present and Future of the Redskins. So I feel that there will be a fine because of that hit. He could have avoided that after he righted himself. He was just trying to make an impact play and nearly ended another players season.

I feel that he should get some kind of suspension for it and maybe that will stop that type of hits. He knew he wasn't going to get there so he lunged. I say that should be a rule for anything like that. Even the Roy Williams rule of Horse collaring.

[Mister Happy]

You have concluded it was "reckless." I have twice tried to explain why, in this particular play with this particular player, I don't see enough evidence to make that determination. Nor do I believe there's any history of reckless or dirty play from this particular player. I think given the bang-bang nature of the play, it's possible this one just chalks up to "**** happens."

Personally, I believe those who've concluded it was "reckless" are allowing home team bias to affect perception of the event. Like the author, I think if it had been, say, Andre Carter making that same play on Ben Roethlisburger, most fan reaction among Redskins fans this board this morning would have been, "damn that's unfortunate. I bet AC feels bad. Great hustle play, though."

Not you, of course. Talking about OTHER Skins fans.

The bottom line is this:

Tackling a QB like that is illegal. He knows it's illegal. They wrote the rule because of a guy on HIS TEAM. He better know it's illegal.

He knew it was illegal, so if he considered the consequences of what he was about to do, he would have realized he was about to perform an illegal act.

So there are only 2 options here:

#1 If he considered the consequences, he would have done it anyway.

#2 He didn't consider the consequences because if he did he wouldn't have done it.

If the truth is #1, well, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say it's #2.

So what you have is someone making a tackle without considering the consequences.

The American Heritage dictionary defines "reckless" as:

"Indifferent to or disregardful of consequences"

Not only was he reckless, but he was the definition of reckless.

Let's say he was trying to block a punt. Would he just plow into the punter or would he try to stop himself? Even in the heat of the battle, players do have some control of their actions if they care enough about the consequences.

This guy made absolutely no effort to stop from hitting Campbell.

Hell, he didn't even care about the consequences afterwards. "It happens", he shrugged. Trust me. If that penalty had cost them a Super Bowl, he wouldn't be shrugging it off.

Don't let the fear of getting a homer label cloud your judgement. The man flat out did not stop to consider his actions. That makes him, by definition, reckless.

[Om]

Don't let the fear of getting a homer label cloud your judgement. The man flat out did not stop to consider his actions. That makes him, by definition, reckless.

"Fear of getting a homer label?" Brother, If I was burdened with that inane kind of "fear," I'd have stopped writing anything positive about this team when the bottom fell out last year, like so many others have. I call 'em like I see 'em, always have, always will. Don't claim to always be right, but I sure as hell claim to be honest.

That aside ... when you say Keisel did not "stop to consider his actions" I think you unintentionally echo what I said several posts ago, in that post with the little mental reveries I had Keisel mulling in the split second it took for him to stumble, see the QB within reach, and try to make a play. No. He did not stop to consider his actions. In that particular play, to me the notion of "stopping to consider his actions" is misplaced. It was the kind of split-second reaction play that takes place 50 times a game, in every organized football game played from high school JV on up.

I assume you saw the play. If you haven't already, please do like I did and watch it again a couple times, then tell me if you still believe he had time to "stop and consider his actions." In my view there is room for the possibility that he really did not. Combined with the fact the guy (correct me if I'm wrong) has no history of "dirty" play, in my mind mitigates in his favor and buys him the benefit of the doubt.

I know you and others disagree. That's fine. We can't all be right all the time.

Except Art of course.

[skinpride1]

Redskins fans wrong to be angry? What a bunch of bull!!! The hit was illegal and it should draw more than a 15 yard penalty!! Some fines should be handed out!!

[Dallsux]

You dont?

I need to tell some people I know this.

Cause I KNOW they have done things KNOWING IT WAS WRONG, and then said "I'm sorry" thinking that makes it all ok.

And I bet others know people like this too.

Well, excuuuuuuse the **** out of me! Taking this a little personal are we? My only point was that the defensive player's job is to get around his block & get to the QB. He wasn't trying to hurt JC, just tackle him. You are making more out of this then is necessary.

[IHOPSkins]

Om and art are the only ones viewing this obectively and hence are the only ones making any sense. If he had just given up, he would hear about it in the film room...In all likelyhood the guy did what he thought he had to do to make a play, not make an injury.

Yeah I am senseless........ahhhhhhhhh NO

Keisel needs to right himself first then lunge not "give up" (third alternative)

He had plenty of TIME AND DISTANCE to do this

Hits below the waist are NOT ALLOWED

The Official called a PENALTY

Was he blocked into Campbell?.......NO (tackle was voluntary...and wrong)

Does that make sense?

[Dan T.]

I didn't have a real problem with Keisel's play. His goal is to get to the quarterback in those 3 to 4 secnds of action to disrupt the play. He was knocked off balance, recovered enough to propel himself toward Campbell, though not enough to hit him higher. This was not a dirty play. There was no intent to injure.

[tex]

I suggest Brett Keisel not walk through any dark alleys in DC any time soon. :redpunch:

Yup.

[End2round2sanders]

All I can say is Pitt is lucky they are on the giving end of these cheap shots. Just more of a reason to hate pitt.

[IHOPSkins]

I didn't have a real problem with Keisel's play. His goal is to get to the quarterback in those 3 to 4 secnds of action to disrupt the play. He was knocked off balance, recovered enough to propel himself toward Campbell, though not enough to hit him higher. This was not a dirty play. There was no intent to injure.

The analogy is the two step hit

The defense can't just hit the QB anymore...they need to pull-up

The defense can't hit low....and his lunge was from on his knees

If rushers are required to be less instinctual for the 2 step hit...

why not with the below the waist hit also?

[turbodiesel#44]

He clearly hit JC illegally below the waist. He also hit him ABOVE his knee. I don't think it was intentional. He was off balance and lunging for the QB. He had already launched before the ball was released. And he made a point to enter the field and personally apologise to JC as he got up and walked off.

There was a penalty as there should have been. There might also be a fine. But this was not a facemask or horsecollar using a players equipment against him. Just a bad hit. Some of you pansies should take up golf or badmitton for a sport. For many of us, the violence of football is one of the major draws. I'm glad JC is going to be OK, but changing the rules so that women and handicapped people can play will not enhance the game, IMO.

[panel]

It may only be a dirty play because it is preseason, but in the regular season, I expect this to happen with out a penalty.

[Dallsux]

I'm glad JC is going to be OK, but changing the rules so that women and handicapped people can play will not enhance the game, IMO.

Amen!

[LoudMouth12thMan]

Only one man knows what was going through Kiesel's mind or in his heart as he lunged for Campbell. The rest of us will never know. The author of this piece is right--it's football. It happens.

Naive way to look at it. If you've (meaning anyone not you specifically Om)played football, you know that that is a big "no no" when you are going after the qb. He lunged at his knees even after being tripped up on the ground. Dirty as hell, period! I mean I've been in fights and felt bad right after I got into it, but that doesn't take away the wrong. He can apologize all he wants but that b.s. was dirty IMO. Had he rolled into him or rapped his legs that would've been one thing. The lunge is the major issue here and that is not arguable here in my mind. Ask the players on the team if they thought it was dirty and they'd tell you yes-but. Most of them would also probably say that it was classy for him to apologize and it was in the "heat of battle" but they know that deep down it's an understood "no no" to lunge at the qb's legs in football. :2cents:

HTTR

[Taylor 21]

THeres no reason to be going low on the QB. They did it to carson, and now to jason. Thank god it wasnt as severe as carsons.

[Mister Happy]

No. He did not stop to consider his actions. In that particular play, to me the notion of "stopping to consider his actions" is misplaced. It was the kind of split-second reaction play that takes place 50 times a game, in every organized football game played from high school JV on up.

I assume you saw the play. If you haven't already, please do like I did and watch it again a couple times, then tell me if you still believe he had time to "stop and consider his actions." In my view there is room for the possibility that he really did not. Combined with the fact the guy (correct me if I'm wrong) has no history of "dirty" play, in my mind mitigates in his favor and buys him the benefit of the doubt.

I know you and others disagree. That's fine. We can't all be right all the time.

Except Art of course.

Let's put it this way. The punishment for hitting a QB like that is 15 yards. If the punishment was the death of all his friends and family, do you think he would have been able to find time to consider his actions?

I'll assume you said yes. If not, we'll have to agree to disagree.

He had time to consider his actions, if he wanted it. He simply did not care enough to take the time. It doesn't matter whether he took a nanosecond or a minute. He made the decision to go after the QB - rules be damned.

That's reckless, and that's what he is.

I don't know what his history is. I suspect neither do you. You assume like most of us, that if he had one, someone else would have said something.

He has one now.

Fool me once. Strike One. Fool me twice......

[turbodiesel#44]

Let's put it this way. The punishment for hitting a QB like that is 15 yards. If the punishment was the death of all his friends and family, do you think he would have been able to find time to consider his actions?

I'll assume you said yes. If not, we'll have to agree to disagree.

He had time to consider his actions, if he wanted it. He simply did not care enough to take the time. It doesn't matter whether he took a nanosecond or a minute. He made the decision to go after the QB - rules be damned.

That's reckless, and that's what he is.

I don't know what his history is. I suspect neither do you. You assume like most of us, that if he had one, someone else would have said something.

He has one now.

Fool me once. Strike One. Fool me twice......

In a sport where throwing your body at someone where timing is critical to the hundredths of seconds, you simply cannot stop to evaluate the situation. You simply do not have time. Coaches evaluate the situation when calling plays. Players run on instinct and training after the snap.

Add to that 300lb lineman knocking you around while you are trying to do your job, and bad hits will happen. Sure, let's kill their families. Smart idea.

If it was Griff hitting Rothlisburger, you same people would be outraged that there was even a flag.

[grego]

Add to that 300lb lineman knocking you around while you are trying to do your job, and bad hits will happen. Sure, let's kill their families. Smart idea.

pretty sure you missed the intent of that point.

If it was Griff hitting Rothlisburger, you same people would be outraged that there was even a flag.

not i. and, yes, i would tell you if i felt otherwise. the hit was illegal- period. was it intentional, as in, to injure? probably not. was it illegal? absolutely.

if griff did it, i would applaud his effort in some way (as i do for the pitt guy), but criticize his lack of ability to either know the rule or just pull up when you know you're going low.

[Joe Gibbs II]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, and although i think it was a crappy play, i wont put Kiesel on a stake yet.

If you remember a few plays later, andre carter took a similar lunge at Worthlessberger. I think carter was more at the ankles, it was still a similar situation.

[mi6]

yep, you nailed it.

The Steelers are known to make dirty hits.

For instance, take the hit that injured Chris Palmer. Yeah! Everybody played politically correct in their interviews, but reality was much different.

JC's hit was illegal! And, that's pure and simple...:point2sky

[SkinsGlory]

Fair article. Good find.

[mistertim]

I don't think he went out there with some premeditation to hurt Campbell, but after watching closer replays of it, it certainly was a dirty hit. He lost his balace a bit, righted himself, and then lunged right at his knee. His helmet didn't even move; he was looking exactly where he hit him. It isn't like he was looking to hit him somewhere else but accidentally hit him in the knee.

I understand the argument saying that he was simply reacting, but if it were that simple you'd see these types of plays and injuries all the time still. Defenders know it is illegal and have adjusted their play and reactions to take that into account, just like they have in the past with other rules like blocking from behind, tackling above the shoulder pads, etc. Everyone else seems able to adapt their instincts and play to reflect these rules, why can't the Steelers seem to? Like I said, I don't think it was premeditated and intended to injure, but in this case intentions really are secondary to actions. In all walks of life people have learned to adapt their instincts to the rules; and that is how it should be in football...and how it is for most people.

Yeah he apologized, but it sort of seems forced and half-***ed when he is later quoted as saying "it happens" while shrugging.

[kevin11]

I really did hate that part when they made JC sound like a scrub.

[Blondie]

I really did hate that part when they made JC sound like a scrub.

Definitely made it sound like he wasnt NEARLY as important as THE BEN.