Braced for Mediocrity

[MEANDWARF]

You don't need to bother reading posts to make comments like this, do you?

OMG! I was just trying to cheer you up. Maybe you should change your name to Cranky Olefan. Don't worry, I won't visit your threads no more.

[BigRay]

I remember the Raiders went undefeated one pre-season they look unbeatable when reg. season rolled around what happen ? They had a losing season.

The Cardinals went undefeated or had a winning pre-season record and what happen when reg. season rolled around? They had a losing season.

Hey, you noticed the pattern here my friend ?

I do not know how can anyone predict what type of season this team will have just based on a single pre-season game. Yes, I agree things did look a little rough around the edges the O-Line was shakey but there were some flashes of what this team is capable of doing. The defense looks like they could be back to their 2005 form. Let's not be to quick to pass judgement here.

We have great coaches here they will get things straighten out that is the main purpose for pre-season to work out whatever kinks a team may have.

Now, if this should continue on in to the reg. season then I say yes, you should be concern but right now . No one is going to know what this team is actually going to look like.

I just sure hope you're wrong my friend.

[flashback]

If I had a penny for every Susy Downer over the last few days, I'd have one right next to you.

Don't you mean...

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Oldfan, look on the bright side.... The seven to nine win season you see is beween three and five games more than I expect they'll win this year.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

Sound, innovative ideas are needed to rise above mediocrity. On the field, I think offenses in the pro game will eventually follow the trend in college football. We'll see QBs in the shotgun rather than under center. Shotgun spreads don't require huge, athletic linemen -- a rare breed.

Different philosophies call for different things, but I'd venture to say that you're completely out in left field on your suggestion that the NFL trend will gravitate towards a Shotgun/college type offense. Shotgun spreads don't require large/athletic linemen, but good running games require large/mobile linemen. In today's game, all successful running teams have two solid Backs and strong/athletic linemen, so I'm confused that you believe that they are a "rare breed."

Gibbs philosophy is centered around a strong running game where the emphasis is placed on big, strong, athletic linemen. He's not the only one with that philosophy. A sound running game with the ability to score on explosive pass plays is a formula that allows you to control the clock and take shots when you need to. I don't see how that philosophy is a dinosaur philosophy when the majority of teams in the NFL is built around that philosophy.

Maybe I missed your point, but it sounded like the playbook or philosophy is to blame or that it's not innovative enough. That's not accurate IMO.

HTTR

[HailSkinz1]

Oldfan, you said we'd finish 7-9 to 9-7. I think that makes you an optimist. I'm hopeful and will cheer like hell for them, but we just stink right now (and did last year too). And to make matters worse, if you've seen the other teams this preseason, especially the Cowboys, we are light years behind already.

We've got a long way to go. And I don't want to hear this "it's only preseason" crap. We went through that last year and all you "ostriches" ended up looking pretty damn stupid. Don't do that to yourself this year, okay.

If we come out looking good this Saturday, I'll feel a lot better. But right now, I'm not feeling it.

Hail,

H

[Oldfan]

The whole point of moving to Saunders was to convert to a modern, progressive offense. Gibbs recognized his own shortcomings in this area and made a drastic correction. History has indicated it takes until the second year for Al's scheme to catch on. That is now. I'm willing to wait and give it a shot this season.

I liked the idea of Saunders coming in. The only question that entered my mind when Joe brought Al in was whether Brunell could run Al's system which seemed to me was designed for a pocket passer. Brunell still has the scrambler's instincts but lacks the wheels to be the threat he was back in 1996-7.

Jason is a better fit, but the ball has to be thrown with precision timing anticipating the receiver's break. It will take some time to get that down.

[RFK Lives]

If I had a penny for every Susy Downer over the last few days, I'd have one right next to you.

Debbie Downer sees no hope in the season.

Actually, I will be more worried if the offense looks the same in the next three weeks but it was their first time out this year. The defense gave me hope so I am of the wait and see mentality.

[jivelikenice]

Well, considering:

1. We had a rookie and a converted guard on the left side of the line

2. We had to keep our pro bowl caliber tight end in to block

3. We were missing one of our top 3 wideouts (Should be starter is his head was on straight)

4. We were missing our #1 back and played our #2 sparingly at best

I think we're overeacting. We were driving the first drive and only failed blitz pickup and the game changes.

Not to mention we won 5 games with one of the worst defenses in the league and we looked STRONG on that side of the ball. don't get medai and fans here. Completely obsession with offense when it was our defense that was disgusting. Media made it sound like it was the worst showing ever and complete ignored the other side of the ball.

[Oldfan]

I do not know how can anyone predict what type of season this team will have just based on a single pre-season game.

How could anyone read my post and think that my position has anything at all to do with the result of Saturday's game?

I can't decide if posters are too lazy to read or too lazy to think.

[Henry]

Your argument is a straw man. I didn't dream up the offense. I'm looking at the evidence of its success at the college level and projecting it to the pro level. A few teams who use the shotgun more than others, New England, Pittsburgh, and Indianapolis, have made Super Bowl appearances in recent years. Of course, that could be just coincidence.

None of those teams use the shotgun as their base offense. You weren't talking about emulating recent superbowl winners. You were talking about an entirely new offensive scheme.

Unless I read you wrong.

Again, "maybe we should try using the shotgun more" is a far cry from "we're mediocre because the coach won't run this offense I like."

[fansince62]

I wish that was true, f62, but his first option is what we saw Saturday. Cooley stays in to block limiting the pass game and forcing us to run the rock more often.

I don't think what happened against the Titans was all that meaningful. There were some hints at patterns that we need to track...but nothing definitive yet. I like the thoughtful approach you are taking to this...but advise..respectfully...that you give this more time. not every piece is put into play automatically at the first preseason game. aside from gettong the o-line to cohere (which always takes time) I find the lone major problem on offense to be a lack of rhythm: it doesn't look crisp, it doesn't look like "been there, done that". but there is time for it to come togther. other than the o-line, the other issues on offense seem to be less unsurmountable obstacles than redirects on how the offense will be executed (e.g., if you don't have big wideouts your strategy for scoring in the Red Zone changes).

give it some more time brotha Old!

[zoony]

Just as a frame of reference for those of you unfamiliar with Oldfan and his posting history... he has also been a strong advocate for Patrick Ramsey, and was convinced that had the coaches stuck with Patrick, we would have been better off.

Of course, now that Ramsey has been cut by the Jets and is about to be cut again, Oldfan has been awfully quiet on that subject. And rightfully so... I mean, to call out one coaching staff as if you know more is one thing... but to call out 3 NFL coaching staffs? That would take more guts than brains.

Although he might after reading this post, you never know.

As for the rest of his post, it appears he was in hibernation when the rest of us witnessed the Run & Shoot offense and its utter ineffectiveness in the NFL. It just doesn't work. However... after Oldfan gets done being embarassed about having forgotten (or missed it?), I'm sure he won't back off his position, and will continue to type 500 word posts one right after the other until he has won via frustration, not from actually being correct on anything.

Actually Oldfan, your bottom line prediction is not a bad one, and I certainly see how you could think that way. That said, I hope that, unlike the Ramsey situation, you come back at the end of this year to take your lumps and man up to admit you were wrong. That is, if the team does well.

But fortunately for you, the team did NOT perform well last year, giving you a platform on which to beat your drum as loud as possible... and perhaps more importantly, an audience of frustrated fans. What will you do if there is a playoff run, however? Actually, I'm sure you'll think of something. You've got it down to a science...

Oldfan formula:

1. Point out the painfully obvious in his thesis. That this team hasn't been good.

-Back up with evidence that is either (a) painfully obvious to everyone else, but Oldfan patents as his own or ( so completely absurd that you wonder if it is even worth arguing against, but oddly enough has very little to do with why we haven't performed.

2. Never, under any circumstances, back off the original position. No matter how foolish it makes you look.

3. Put posters on ignore who call him on it.

4. Whine when the mods call him on it.

5. Dissapear when he's proven wrong, only to show up again when the 'Skins are bad again, or he's found his proverbial acorn.

Well let me be the first to say Oldfan... that in the interest of the Redskins' season, I for one hope you pull your dissapearing act by Week 7.

...

[Oldfan]

LoudMouth12thMan -- In today's game, all successful running teams have two solid Backs and strong/athletic linemen, so I'm confused that you believe that they are a "rare breed."

Your belief that "a good running game requires large, mobile linemen" has been true in pro football only because pro teams have been running from formations that made it true. It is less true with pro teams that run the West Coast offenses; and it used to be true in college, but not since teams converted to variations of the shotgun spreads.

Coaching the offense is more difficult than coaching the defense. One weak link on an O line can severely limit an offensive game plan. Which pro team can you name that doesn't have a weak link on the O line? With 32 teams in the league, you aren't going to get a group like the 1981 Hogs together, and keep them together, ever again.

I don't see how that philosophy is a dinosaur philosophy when the majority of teams in the NFL is built around that philosophy.

It's a weak strategy BECAUSE everyone in the NFL has been trying to do it for so long. Defenses have seen it for 70 years and have the answers.

[Oldfan]

None of those teams use the shotgun as their base offense. You weren't talking about emulating recent superbowl winners. You were talking about an entirely new offensive scheme.

Unless I read you wrong.

Again, "maybe we should try using the shotgun more" is a far cry from "we're mediocre because the coach won't run this offense I like."

You read me right. I'm saying that I'd like to see the Skins be the first to use a variation of the shotgun spread as a base offense.

There is evidence of success using this approach from two sources: the college game where it teams using it have beaten teams using the conventional approach with regularity and the success of pro teams that have used it for more than just third and long situations.

[paloosa]

So many things happened during the first preseason game that made me wonder if they are going to be any good to win more games than they did last year. But one thing I did see was vast improvement from last years first preseason game. The first team defense was very good and there are a lot of new guys that looked impressive. Byron Westbrook played well even if it was against the second and third stringers. But look at Anthony Montgomery with the first team. He was making penetration into the backfield and played very well. The offense was the main concern for me because at times they played like they were in slow motion and other times they played very well. So there are concerns with the team but I still think that the team is in better shape this year than last. Also the concerns thay the team has is being addressed by playing these backups to see what we have. Stephen Heyer played well and made rookie mistakes but the experience he is getting now will only make him better. The preseason is for coaches to evaluate their teams to see who they will keep and whom will be released. So to say that the team is going to have another bad year is too early to tell.

[Riggo'sRangers]

Light years behind the Cowboys...the same Cowboys that were ahead 3-0 at HALFTIME, at home? I live in Texas and the Cowboys were not that impressive. The talent level is so even in the NFL. Lets see if the Boys can adjust to possibly having more than 1 injury, for the entire year, to a starter. We could be mired in mediocrity this year, but it just sometime depends on which team gets the breaks. That's what makes the season great...no one knows! That is why we watch. I can't wait until the real bullets fly!

:point2sky

[Oldfan]

zoony, an entire post to lodge a personal attack on me? Man, I can only assume that I bruised your ego pretty badly in our past exchanges for you to be holding a grudge like that. If it were just that I was stubborn and wrong as you allege, you would pay me no mind. Get over it, my friend.

Despite your frustration with me, you did manage to clear your head long enough to work in one "argument" on point.

As for the rest of his post, it appears he was in hibernation when the rest of us witnessed the Run & Shoot offense and its utter ineffectiveness in the NFL. It just doesn't work.

As noted in earlier posts, there is ample evidence at the college level that variations of the shotgun spread have proven superior when competing against formations that have the QB under center. We can also find evidence at the pro level, there is far more use of the shotgun formations now than ever before, although not as a base formation.

Let me asure you that I will remain stubborn on this point until you come up with something more than your assertion that "It just doesn't work."

[phishisthegreatstuff]

i don't know what the hell you talking about but ok.

[Walking Deadman]

We tried the college schemes and boy did we go far.

7-9

5-11

Thanks Steve Spurrier :applause:

(Note: Spurrier was brought in for his success in college and his innovative schemes with the Gators....)

[zoony]

zoony, an entire post to lodge a personal attack on me?

I think you are having problems (as usual) understanding what a personal attack is.

Now that I remember, I left the part out about your incessant whining as part of your MO.

Hey... if you're gonna put something out there, expect people to call you on it. That's what message boards are. In no way is that a personal attack.

And what am I doing explaining this to you? You've been told this several times... by staff and fellow posters alike. Do you choose to just ignore that?

Carry on, nothing to see here.

....

[Oldfan]

I don't think what happened against the Titans was all that meaningful. There were some hints at patterns that we need to track...but nothing definitive yet. I like the thoughtful approach you are taking to this...but advise..respectfully...that you give this more time. not every piece is put into play automatically at the first preseason game. aside from gettong the o-line to cohere (which always takes time) I find the lone major problem on offense to be a lack of rhythm: it doesn't look crisp, it doesn't look like "been there, done that". but there is time for it to come togther. other than the o-line, the other issues on offense seem to be less unsurmountable obstacles than redirects on how the offense will be executed (e.g., if you don't have big wideouts your strategy for scoring in the Red Zone changes).

give it some more time brotha Old!

I didn't see anything Saturday that encouraged or discouraged me for the coming season. But, my original post wasn't about the coming season. I was thinking longer term.

If the O-line can give Campbell time and open some hole for the RBs, we will have some fun this year. but, if we need to keep eligible receivers in to help with pass blocking too often, it will severely limit the young QBs game.

[Morneblade]

Just as a frame of reference for those of you unfamiliar with Oldfan and his posting history... he has also been a strong advocate for Patrick Ramsey, and was convinced that had the coaches stuck with Patrick, we would have been better off.

Of course, now that Ramsey has been cut by the Jets and is about to be cut again, Oldfan has been awfully quiet on that subject. And rightfully so... I mean, to call out one coaching staff as if you know more is one thing... but to call out 3 NFL coaching staffs? That would take more guts than brains.

Although he might after reading this post, you never know.

As for the rest of his post, it appears he was in hibernation when the rest of us witnessed the Run & Shoot offense and its utter ineffectiveness in the NFL. It just doesn't work. However... after Oldfan gets done being embarassed about having forgotten (or missed it?), I'm sure he won't back off his position, and will continue to type 500 word posts one right after the other until he has won via frustration, not from actually being correct on anything.

Actually Oldfan, your bottom line prediction is not a bad one, and I certainly see how you could think that way. That said, I hope that, unlike the Ramsey situation, you come back at the end of this year to take your lumps and man up to admit you were wrong. That is, if the team does well.

But fortunately for you, the team did NOT perform well last year, giving you a platform on which to beat your drum as loud as possible... and perhaps more importantly, an audience of frustrated fans. What will you do if there is a playoff run, however? Actually, I'm sure you'll think of something. You've got it down to a science...

Oldfan formula:

1. Point out the painfully obvious in his thesis. That this team hasn't been good.

-Back up with evidence that is either (a) painfully obvious to everyone else, but Oldfan patents as his own or ( so completely absurd that you wonder if it is even worth arguing against, but oddly enough has very little to do with why we haven't performed.

2. Never, under any circumstances, back off the original position. No matter how foolish it makes you look.

3. Put posters on ignore who call him on it.

4. Whine when the mods call him on it.

5. Dissapear when he's proven wrong, only to show up again when the 'Skins are bad again, or he's found his proverbial acorn.

Well let me be the first to say Oldfan... that in the interest of the Redskins' season, I for one hope you pull your dissapearing act by Week 7.

...

Quoted for truth.

Man, it's been awhile since I've seen OF here. He didnt like the trend that Defense wins SB's much. Spurriers' "Fun and Gun" didnt work out so well in the NFL, neither did the Run and Shoot. He'll throw something out that can't hold water, have someone depute it and then demand you got back 40 years to prove your point. All without a shred of eveidence.

[Oldfan]

We tried the college schemes and boy did we go far.

7-9

5-11

Thanks Steve Spurrier :applause:

(Note: Spurrier was brought in for his success in college and his innovative schemes with the Gators....)

The Redskins Gibbs-Saunders offense was a college offense (San Diego State, Don Coryell).

[zoony]

The Redskins Gibbs-Saunders offense was a college offense (San Diego State, Don Coryell).

Sure was. And when Gibbs started off the season 0-5 in 1981, he decided he'd need to make changes.

That's when he added the 2 and 3 TE sets and started running the ball.

Thanks for pointing that out OF, I'd forgotten.

....