Legend of the great white Canadian Running back

[DCsportsfan53]

For a contrast, look at the NBA. There's a Chinese guy playing all-star center. There are Eastern Europeans playing power forward. There are shooting guards from South America. A Canadian is the best point guard in the league ... The majority of the NBA is black players, sure, but at every position, there is still more than one non-black player performing at a very high level. Why isn't that the case for RB's and CB's in football? I think you have to conclude that there's some element of race involved.

Yeah and how many of those white players drive the bucket and dunk on people like Dwayne Wade? That's the kind of athleticism that CBs and RBs need.

[Teller]

It's different because you're comparing more tangible things, like athletic ability, to less tangible things like mental competence and leadership.

I don't know when the last time you got out to a basketball court to play ball was but, everytime I go, it's usually not the white guys dunking all over the place and blowing by people left and right. :laugh:

There ARE legitimate athletic differences there. Take sprinting and field and track for example. People of African decent dominant that those sports almost exclusively and for a reason. It just so happens that CB and RB are positions that require more innate athleticism than most.

Here we go with the same old argument. *sigh*

So, it's a perfectly logical and non-racist position to assert that African Americans are superior athleticially. Got it.

In that case, the majority of successful business owners in this country are white, correct? So can we agree to the same logical conclusion, that proven by results in the business world that whites are smarter, or at least have superior business sense?

I know. That TOO is different.

(BTW, just for the record, I don't feel whites are smarter. I just wanted to point out the ridiculousness of DC's "logic.")

[prophet]

Yeah and how many of those white players drive the bucket and dunk on people like Dwayne Wade? That's the kind of athleticism that CBs and RBs need.

Bob Sura is a heck of a dunker!

And I think David Lee won the dunk contest at the MCd's AA games

I don't know that dunking is the skills we need on a BB court to win.

When is the last time we've won gold?

[DCsportsfan53]

Here we go with the same old argument. *sigh*

So, it's a perfectly logical and non-racist position to assert that African Americans are superior athleticially. Got it.

In that case, the majority of successful business owners in this country are white, correct? So can we agree to the same logical conclusion, that proven by results in the business world that whites are smarter, or at least have superior business sense?

I know. That TOO is different.

(BTW, just for the record, I don't feel whites are smarter. I just wanted to point out the ridiculousness of DC's "logic.")

Again, there's a lot more there than you're acknowledging. Business has a lot to do with other things, and blacks have been restricted access to that arena. Also, when you're talking about professional sports, there's no room for the second place guy, it's purely about who's the better athlete. Obviously, there are exceptions but come on hh. Anyone who's played a fair amount of sports in their life knows that, generally speaking, the best, most explosive athletes are not white.

[DjTj]

Yeah and how many of those white players drive the bucket and dunk on people like Dwayne Wade? That's the kind of athleticism that CBs and RBs need.

Well, there's only one Dwayne Wade. There aren't many black players that can drive and dunk like he can.

And it's not like there's some gene that prevents white guys from dunking:

Or from handling the ball:

Now there is definitely something genetic that might make those of West African descent, on average, better sprinters, or those of East African descent, on average, better long-distance runners, and we see that in the Olympics. Maybe on that elite level drawing from the entire population of the world, I could understand a 100-meter final with all black guys, but I don't think the NFL is quite that elite, and I don't think being a running back or a corner is that narrow of a physical activity that genetics can determine everything. Also, the important thing to remember about genetics is that it is random, and people can deviate far from the average.

Genetics can explain why most of our running backs are black, but it does not follow that ALL our running backs must be black. There should still be that one random white guy like there is in the NBA at every position. Genetics is a random process, and with that element of randomness it just doesn't seem possible to have a completely one-race profession based on genetics alone.

We think of Samoans a big guys in the trenches, but there's one elite player that doesn't fit the mold in Troy Polamalu. Yao Ming is not what you would think of when you think of Chinese people. Genetics is a random game and there should be exceptions. There must be white guys out there with the athletic ability to play corner in the NFL.

As I said, I don't think all the white guys are getting cut in NFL training camp due to racism; they're just playing other positions or other sports, whether it's being pushed towards safety or playing baseball or soccer or lacrosse ... there are subtle factors that are pushing all the white guys away from corner and running back. There are subtle forces at work that divide things along racial lines more than they would on the basis of genetics alone...

I think anywhere there is a stereotype, there is a danger of overreaching on that stereotype - whether it's CEO's or Head Coaches or running backs, once a certain type of person is typecast into a role, it's hard to break out of that, and that's how we get to a situation like we are in now with no white corners or running backs.

[Head Hog UK]

Hey, this is fun when you're on my side, Tj. I feel like Kuwait in the first Gulf War, looking around at the U.S. tanks like, "OK, you guys got this? Cool. Call us when it's over." :laugh:

And the British Armoured Corps of course..........

[techboy]

It's different because you're comparing more tangible things, like athletic ability, to less tangible things like mental competence and leadership.

I don't know when the last time you got out to a basketball court to play ball was but, everytime I go, it's usually not the white guys dunking all over the place and blowing by people left and right. :laugh:

There ARE legitimate athletic differences there. Take sprinting and field and track for example. People of African decent dominant that those sports almost exclusively and for a reason. It just so happens that CB and RB are positions that require more innate athleticism than most.

I always wondered where Jimmy the Greek ended up, but wouldn't you be a lot older than 24 by now, Mr. Greek? Is that part of your cover?

[Teller]

Again, there's a lot more there than you're acknowledging. Business has a lot to do with other things, and blacks have been restricted access to that arena. Also, when you're talking about professional sports, there's no room for the second place guy, it's purely about who's the better athlete. Obviously, there are exceptions but come on hh. Anyone who's played a fair amount of sports in their life knows that, generally speaking, the best, most explosive athletes are not white.

Here's the dictionary.com definition of racism. You tell me whether it more accurately describes your position or mine:

"a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others."

[Fergasun]

Personally, I think there is a lot to "positive thinking"... maybe not thinking, but "positive belief". I think a majority of white athletes actually buy into the fact that African Americans are somehow athletically superior, and they cannot compete against them.

[RDSKNfaithfull]

Honary Hog~

I respect your opinion but it is just that. I think a white running back with half the skill would recieve more attention as evidence by the Jesse Lumsden hype obbsesion on this board. The kid just isn't NFL Good. As for Dcsportsfans argument it holds a little bit of weight, call it racist if you want but if the shoe fits..... Is it racist to say you don't see many tall asian people? There is exceptions to the rule always but to ignore whats plain to see is pretty mind blowing. There is no conspiracy to keep white players out of the league that is run by mostly white males :laugh:

[Major Harris]

Here we go with the same old argument. *sigh*

So, it's a perfectly logical and non-racist position to assert that African Americans are superior athleticially. Got it.

it's not pretty to say, but for the most part, it's undeniably true.

now, hog, don't get me wrong on that. i am with you (although probably not w/ lumsden), that race can play a factor. i think dj got a little closer with it with regards to it happening at all levels of football. it is ingrained in kids minds, often before they start playing competitively, what the expectations of themselves should be.

truth is, when it comes to typecasting athletes based on race, parents are guilty, coaches are guilty, and the athletes themselves are often guilty.

[dwbiggs]

Hey...people didn't like it but Reggie White made some accurate observations.

[DCsportsfan53]

it's not pretty to say, but for the most part, it's undeniably true.

now, hog, don't get me wrong on that. i am with you (although probably not w/ lumsden), that race can play a factor. i think dj got a little closer with it with regards to it happening at all levels of football. it is ingrained in kids minds, often before they start playing competitively, what the expectations of themselves should be.

truth is, when it comes to typecasting athletes based on race, parents are guilty, coaches are guilty, and the athletes themselves are often guilty.

I'm not saying that doesn't go on at all, you guys are probably right. What I am saying is, if the white safety ran a 4.34 and tore up the shuttle cone drill, he wouldn't be a freakin safety. :laugh:

[Major Harris]

I'm not saying that doesn't go on at all, you guys are probably right. What I am saying is, if the white safety ran a 4.34 and tore up the shuttle cone drill, he wouldn't be a freakin safety. :laugh:

i know what you're saying. and you're right. i think it's way more subtle than that, and, for the most part, what's done is done way before you get to the nfl.

[jrockster21]

:laugh:

hh, honestly, your drive to find instances of reverse racism is absolutely, mind bogglingly impressive. I literally don't even know how you do it. You honestly believe that a white RB has to do more to earn a spot?

Man, you guys are way off on this one. A white RB doesn't have as much of a shot as a black RB? Wow. Who looks into these things as deeply as that?

Sure, Lumsden did well in a scrimmage. Maybe he couldn't pass protect for ****? You wouldn't see that in a scrimmage, because there is no contact with the QB.

And Dj - I'm pretty shocked you're on the bandwagon as well with this one...its the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

[DjTj]

Man, you guys are way off on this one. A white RB doesn't have as much of a shot as a black RB? Wow. Who looks into these things as deeply as that?

Sure, Lumsden did well in a scrimmage. Maybe he couldn't pass protect for ****? You wouldn't see that in a scrimmage, because there is no contact with the QB.

And Dj - I'm pretty shocked you're on the bandwagon as well with this one...its the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Why is it any more ridiculous than black coaches being passed over because they didn't fit the mold?

If black coaches weren't being hired solely because of racism, then the Rooney Rule would not have worked. Racist owners would have given phony interviews to minority candidates and just continued hiring white coaches.

But the problem wasn't racist owners; it was that owners subconsciously tended to choose coaches they could relate to, or coaches that they already knew, or coaches who just talked like and acted like previous coaches that had been successful. In a subtle way, this excluded black candidates, even though that's not what owneres were trying to do. Public pressure and the Rooney Rule changed that by making owners think twice about who they were hiring ... and it has worked.

I don't think it's ridiculous to think the same thing about cornerbacks or runningbacks. Coaches expect to see a black guy playing those positions, and starting a white guy is just going to feel different. This plays out in pickup basketball games all over the country where the white guy gets picked last - there is a stereotype out there that must be overcome.

Now I haven't said anything about Lumsden, but he was at best borderline and got caught up in a numbers game. I believe that a racial effect is probably minimized in the NFL, where there are pretty extensive scouting and combine processes. On lower levels, however, I think it's pretty reasonable to believe that white athletes tend to be pushed one way while black athletes are pushed in another direction.

32 starting runninbacks. 64 starting corners. Every one of them black. It's just hard for me to believe that we would reach that result without some racial forces at work. There are certainly socioeconomic factors and geographic factors that play into it, but with such a stark racial disparity, I believe there must be a subtle racial bias that systematically funnels white athletes away from those positions ... How else would you explain it?

[Major Harris]

Man, you guys are way off on this one. A white RB doesn't have as much of a shot as a black RB? Wow. Who looks into these things as deeply as that?

Sure, Lumsden did well in a scrimmage. Maybe he couldn't pass protect for ****? You wouldn't see that in a scrimmage, because there is no contact with the QB.

And Dj - I'm pretty shocked you're on the bandwagon as well with this one...its the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

seriously jrock, did you read the thread?

[jrockster21]

On lower levels, however, I think it's pretty reasonable to believe that white athletes tend to be pushed one way while black athletes are pushed in another direction.

I don't think so at all. Maybe my experience was not the norm, but on my HS football team we had white players at CB, S, RB and WR.

As far as the Rooney rule is concerned - I think its apples and oranges. It was a matter of putting someone in control. And if it were the same, wouldn't the white coaches want white players, not the other way around? Maybe I'm over simplifying it, I dunno.

You can single out two positions, but then wouldn't the disparity have to exist the other way around for your theory to hold correct? I guess you could argue that the QB was pretty exclusively white for a long time, but not anymore. There are both white and black starters at every other position.

[Enter Apotheosis]

I don't think so at all. Maybe my experience was not the norm, but on my HS football team we had white players at CB, S, RB and WR.

How good was your football team?

[DjTj]

I don't think so at all. Maybe my experience was not the norm, but on my HS football team we had white players at CB, S, RB and WR.

Well certainly there are thousands of white corners and running backs playing high school football, but that just begs the question: Why don't any of them make it to the NFL?

As far as the Rooney rule is concerned - I think its apples and oranges. It was a matter of putting someone in control. And if it were the same, wouldn't the white coaches want white players, not the other way around? Maybe I'm over simplifying it, I dunno.

That would be the case if it had to do with racism, but I'm saying that it's NOT racism. Coaches aren't trying to place players based on their race, but based on their idea of what a running back should look like, they are subconsciously making decisions based on race.

You can single out two positions, but then wouldn't the disparity have to exist the other way around for your theory to hold correct? I guess you could argue that the QB was pretty exclusively white for a long time, but not anymore. There are both white and black starters at every other position.

It is precisely the same effect that held back black QB's for so long, although that was combined with real racism about black players' ability to run an offense. At high schools and colleges across America, coaches were less likely to put black kids in as QB's, so we had a smaller pool of black QB's to pick from when it got to the NFL level. Even once black QB's made it, there was a particular image of a scrambling black QB that Donavan McNabb would complain about ...

There are all these stereotypes and misperceptions out there, and I think it's naive to think that they don't affect things in a very real way. There is less of a stereotype about other positions, but I think there's really a lot of people out there that believe only black people can be athletic enough to play corner or running back, and to some extent, wide receiver. The results are on all 32 rosters: Zero white running backs; zero white corners. How else do you explain that?

[redskins59]

I am neither white nor black, and I agree with people suggesting that the reason White athletes are less prominent in the the running back and cornerback positions is because there is this feeling that Whites are less "athletic" than blacks. This is racist in my view. However, let's not forget that the quarterback position is dominated by Whites. I think this is because the quarterback position requires high IQ, and once again, racism comes to the fore, and people feel that black athletes are just not smart enough to play that position because, well, the stereotype is that blacks are not smart(this is not my opinion, but that's the racist stereotype.) Now, if blacks do play the quarterback position, they are expected to run, like Vick and Vince Young(there are exceptions though like McNabb). Now, this is slowly changing I must say, as evidenced by all the black quarterbacks you see these days. Many people have said that Jason Campbell sounds dumb because of the way he talks(this suggestion in my view has a racial element to it, along with the fact that he speaks with a Southern drawl). I just don't feel that way. Campbell to me sounds like a very smart fellow, not to mention hardworking.

Everybody should be given equal opportunity, whether white or black, no matter what position. In an ideal world, a person is judged by his abilities, but we don't live in an ideal world, do we?

As for Lumsden, he may really be a good quarterback. We don't really know because he hasn't been given much opportunity.

[thedoc4454]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Lumsden was the biggest, fastest running back on the squad last year, was he not? He also looked very good when they let him play. When they traded for that stiff from Atlanta and gave up a 3d round draft pick for nothing I thought why not bring back Lumsden?

I wonder if they'll screw over Pete Schmitt, too?

[Enter Apotheosis]

As far as Lumsden goes, we only keep three RBs on the team barring - of course - catastrophic injury. In order for him to have made the team he would have needed to have done atleast one of the following...

1. Been a better all-around back than Portis.

2. Been a better runner than Ladell Betts.

3. Been a bigger contributor to special teams than Rock Cartwright.

4. Shown a propensity to be a tough, durable back.

We know for sure that he did not qualify for number 4 seeing as he was hurt for much of training camp and condition number 1 also seems very much unlikely. That means that in order to make the roster he would have to have been a SIGNIFICANT improvement over Rock on special teams or Ladell in the run game. Considering that the two guys he was then (theoretically) in the most direct competition with are good at what we have them do, have a much longer history with the team, and are remarkably durable... it just wasn't going to happen for Lumsden in DC.

[golota]

Its true the Redskins already had Portis and Betts. But, two things I dont understand.

1. Why trade a draft pick to pick up Duckett when you could of had Lumsden to be the big power back?

2. I cant understand how after Lumsden got cut from both seattle and washington not ONE team chose to pick him up for at least a practice roster.

You are talking about a 230 pounder who can run a 4.4 forty.

In fact, Seattle didnt give him even one preseason carry. How can someone prove themselves with no opportunity?

3, The same thing happened in reverse in the 80's when Warren Moon had to go to the CFL to prove himself because no one was hiring black QB's. Instead, he tore up the CFL. Lumsden is doing the same.

[Teller]

Its true the Redskins already had Portis and Betts. But, two things I dont understand.

1. Why trade a draft pick to pick up Duckett when you could of had Lumsden to be the big power back?

2. I cant understand how after Lumsden got cut from both seattle and washington not ONE team chose to pick him up for at least a practice roster.

You are talking about a 230 pounder who can run a 4.4 forty.

In fact, Seattle didnt give him even one preseason carry. How can someone prove themselves with no opportunity?

3, The same thing happened in reverse in the 80's when Warren Moon had to go to the CFL to prove himself because no one was hiring black QB's. Instead, he tore up the CFL. Lumsden is doing the same.

That's an excellent point right there. Moon destroyed the CFL, and was a GREAT NFL QB for many years after that. I guess we'll have to be content with Lumsden shredding the CFL...well...that and his career 6.0 YPA in the NFL. :laugh: