Can somebody please straighten me out, what is the difference between dog fighting..

[Enter Apotheosis]

Triple post of doom.

[AsburySkinsFan]

however, the real problem is that we seem to focus solely on cutting down the deer population via recreational hunting (which is ineffective in the grand scheme of things) instead of actually restoring the process and helping to bring back some of the natural predators of the deer.

I agree, a balance could be found by building the number of predatory animals back in a region thus restoring the cycle, but the problem is that most people do not like the idea of rebuilding the wolf, mountian lion, coyote, and bobcat (baby deer) populations in their back-yards. The point is that now most prey animals have no predatory species to thin their populations and so they grow out of control resulting in an overall weaker animal population.

I found that pretty ironic considering how you jumped to conclusions about my intent. Seems to me that lately you've been a bit more aggressive in your ES debates, might be time to take a break.

Sorry for misreading your intent, it was late and I had just read through a thread where people where making those types of arguments, by wanting to equate hunting to other things that are simply not equal by any stretch of the imagination. However, I hope you do see where that logic fails in reality, because people are simply not going to allow predatory species to be re-established where they live, look at the trouble that comes whenever wolf populations are introduced back into certain areas. Thus the reality is that either these animals are hunted by humans or they grow out of control and suffer. There is not a third option because people simply will not tolerate predatory species in the number that it would take to manage herds.

[Kosher Ham]

I think EA and PB are on to something here. Interesting. I didnt read the last 5 or so posts yet , but I am intrigued.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba7QvrreqU4

[twa]

Enter Apotheosis, Aren't humans the ultimate predators in the modern era?

Throughout time some of us have been,while others preferred a agrarian or foraging existence .

Dog fighting is illegal by society's decree THAT is the important difference

[revallenjr]

Horse racing is a better comparison - it brings in tons of money, so of course it is acceptable. I wouldn't say its a racial thing, but I'm pretty sure most horse owners and jockeys are white. Coincidence? Who knows...I will say that dog fighting definitely has more in your face "badness," which makes it more morally uncomfortable. We don't see all the horses that get shot and mistreated on TV - if we did, maybe horse racing would be viewed the same way.

Accually horses are treated very well. They cost too much money to neglect them. Now Grey hounds and dog racing is a different story. These dogs are litterally abused for the sake of gambling.

[The 12th Commandment]

...because people are simply not going to allow predatory species to be re-established where they live, look at the trouble that comes whenever wolf populations are introduced back into certain areas. Thus the reality is that either these animals are hunted by humans or they grow out of control and suffer. There is not a third option because people simply will not tolerate predatory species in the number that it would take to manage herds.

There's a pack of Mexican Wolves in the Gila NF about 3 hours nw of me. I've camped up there and heard them howl at night while I was sleeping in my tent. It was one the singularly most errie things I've ever heard. I liked it, I liked it a lot. The ranchers, and I'm not anti-rancher in the least I've got too many friends I have to give a hard time about it, can't handle them. It's not the people who use the forest it's purely about these rancher's irrational fear.

We, you and I, ie the taxpayers, pay them for every animal killed. That doesn't matter to them, and that's something I don't understand. I like having them out there, I also understand that's there's a cost to doing so. I have no problem paying, but the ranchers have a big problem accepting. Not sure that there's a solution but it's an interesting dilemma. And while I don't understand it, your right, I don't think it will ever be acceptable again.

They removed a couple more yesterday.

http://www.lcsun-news.com/news/ci_6434869

[jrockster21]

1. There is not one iota of difference, in any way, between hunting and dog fighting. They couldnt't be more exactly alike. That's patently obvious. It's the same from the very first consideration, down to the last detail. Even just a moment's thought would reveal this as undeniably true. It's so wierd you had to ask.

2. I blame Bush (the president not the group), the music of Little Boll Weevil or Boo Woo or whoever he is, and the widespread social failure that is Christianity in the U.S.

So it's a racial mix. We need more Buddhist moderates who like Motown to change things for the better.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[The 12th Commandment]

To answer the original question. Lot's a good arguments to the comparison have been put forth. The main difference to me though, is that in hunting your one of the direct participants. You've woken at the crack of dawn and, at least out here, you're in a for hell of walk through rough country and usually foul weather with no guarantee you're going to see anything. People I know eat what they kill and that's a must. That's why I only hunt birds out here, these muley's are nasty tasting and so are elk. Give me a nice tasty east texas white tail who sneaks on the farms at night...mmmm.

Now hunting over the internet? That's about the equivalent to dog fighting IMO.

[communion5]

im suprised anybody has the patiance to answer this question seriously, come on man, get your head outta your ass.

[Jumbo]

im suprised anybody has the patiance to answer this question seriously, come on man, get your head outta your ass.

we frown on suggestions that violate tailgate protocols :mad:

[techboy]

I honestly don't think that the problem with dog fighting is the killing of the dogs. Dogs are euthanized every day in this country for a variety of reasons, and while this upsets some, there's not an outcry. There are places where they eat dog!

Dog fighting, on the other hand, unlike hunting, involves the deliberate torture of the animals, and not as an unwanted side effect, but as a desired result. Dogs are tortured daily to make them meaner, and better fighters.

That's the part that makes it sick, twisted, and depraved, and that's what makes it different from hunting, or even slaughterhouses, where animals might suffer, but it's not intentional.

The difference is intent, and given the studies showing links between animal cruelty and all manner of deviant criminal behavior up to and including serial killings, it's not something to be taken lightly or blown off.

It's about the deliberate torture, not the species (though that certainly adds an element of emotion) and I think there would be a similar outcry if people began capturing and torturing wild animals like deer, or at least I'd hope so.

By the way, hunting is not a good analogy. The best analogy in the Western world is bull-fighting, which I find just as detestable, but many Spanish see it as their cultural heritage, so it continues.

[PleaseBlitz]

I honestly don't think that the problem with dog fighting is the killing of the dogs. Dogs are euthanized every day in this country for a variety of reasons, and while this upsets some, there's not an outcry. There are places where they eat dog!

Dog fighting, on the other hand, unlike hunting, involves the deliberate torture of the animals, and not as an unwanted side effect, but as a desired result. Dogs are tortured daily to make them meaner, and better fighters.

That's the part that makes it sick, twisted, and depraved, and that's what makes it different from hunting, or even slaughterhouses, where animals might suffer, but it's not intentional.

The difference is intent, and given the studies showing links between animal cruelty and all manner of deviant criminal behavior up to and including serial killings, it's not something to be taken lightly or blown off.

It's about the deliberate torture, not the species (though that certainly adds an element of emotion) and I think there would be a similar outcry if people began capturing and torturing wild animals like deer, or at least I'd hope so.

By the way, hunting is not a good analogy. The best analogy in the Western world is bull-fighting, which I find just as detestable, but many Spanish see it as their cultural heritage, so it continues.

Thats a good point. I still think hunting is unneccessary, but i can see this POV.

[Enter Apotheosis]

I agree, a balance could be found by building the number of predatory animals back in a region thus restoring the cycle, but the problem is that most people do not like the idea of rebuilding the wolf, mountian lion, coyote, and bobcat (baby deer) populations in their back-yards. The point is that now most prey animals have no predatory species to thin their populations and so they grow out of control resulting in an overall weaker animal population.

Therein lies the big problem, the most effective solution is one people are afraid of. Nonetheless, I'm still not convinced that we can justify killing the deer ourselves just because we already killed off the animals that kept populations in check. Why kill anything just because there are too many of them? Again, it just alludes back to the somewhat absurd comparison I made initially.

Sorry for misreading your intent, it was late and I had just read through a thread where people where making those types of arguments, by wanting to equate hunting to other things that are simply not equal by any stretch of the imagination.

Fair enough

However, I hope you do see where that logic fails in reality, because people are simply not going to allow predatory species to be re-established where they live, look at the trouble that comes whenever wolf populations are introduced back into certain areas. Thus the reality is that either these animals are hunted by humans or they grow out of control and suffer. There is not a third option because people simply will not tolerate predatory species in the number that it would take to manage herds.

Yes, I can see where it fails in reality... but thats almost entirely our own damn fault. Hunting the deer to compensate strikes me as the easy way out that won't solve a whole lot in the grander scheme of things.

Enter Apotheosis, Aren't humans the ultimate predators in the modern era?

Throughout time some of us have been,while others preferred a agrarian or foraging existence.

The first is an interesting question. Three thoughts came to mind in this order...

- If you exclude our ability to use tools to aid us in hunting, we're nothing but scavengers (and very weak ones at that).

- Given our full arsenal, of course we're the ultimate predators.

- Although... that whole Matrix/Mr. Smith comparison of mankind to a virus does seem awfully accurate.

Those thoughts raise a lot more questions than answers and I have a hard time accepting outright that we deserve the title of ultimate predator.

There's a pack of Mexican Wolves in the Gila NF about 3 hours nw of me. I've camped up there and heard them howl at night while I was sleeping in my tent. It was one the singularly most errie things I've ever heard. I liked it, I liked it a lot. The ranchers, and I'm not anti-rancher in the least I've got too many friends I have to give a hard time about it, can't handle them. It's not the people who use the forest it's purely about these rancher's irrational fear.

We, you and I, ie the taxpayers, pay them for every animal killed. That doesn't matter to them, and that's something I don't understand. I like having them out there, I also understand that's there's a cost to doing so. I have no problem paying, but the ranchers have a big problem accepting. Not sure that there's a solution but it's an interesting dilemma. And while I don't understand it, your right, I don't think it will ever be acceptable again.

They removed a couple more yesterday.

Quoted for truth.

[jbooma]

last i checked you don't electrocute animals when you hunt :doh:

the other point is when you hunt it is in a natural environment, dog fighting all set up and the animals are trained to kill etc....

to call dog fighting a racist thing is absurd since it used to be popular with the rich crowd many years ago

and last but not least hunting is not illegal, dog fighting is, so if you are stupid enough to still try and fight dogs then you are stupid enough to pay the price if you get caught

[AsburySkinsFan]

There's a pack of Mexican Wolves in the Gila NF about 3 hours nw of me. I've camped up there and heard them howl at night while I was sleeping in my tent. It was one the singularly most errie things I've ever heard. I liked it, I liked it a lot. The ranchers, and I'm not anti-rancher in the least I've got too many friends I have to give a hard time about it, can't handle them. It's not the people who use the forest it's purely about these rancher's irrational fear.

In some ways I agree. Last night before I put to bed, I let the dog out and heard our local pack of coyotes working their way through the creek bottoms, if you've never heard them its almost impossible to explain what they sound like, the local domestic dogs don't like them at all and they were voicing their displeasure.

As someone who loves and respects nature I love having them and wolves (none here) around, as for the farmers I don't agree that their fear is irrational. Instead there are cattle farmers in my church who have lost new born calves to the packs coyotes, and when you figure that cattle sells on average $1 per pound you can guess that they aren't very pleased about loosing out on their income (1 year olds 500 lbs+-, hefers 1000 lbs+-). Wolves pose a larger risk because they are able to take down larger prey. Plus to introduce the number of wolves that it would take to control the game populations would pose many increased risks all the way around

[AsburySkinsFan]

Now hunting over the internet? That's about the equivalent to dog fighting IMO.

AMEN! And I wholeheartedly support any state that bans that dispicable practice.

[The 12th Commandment]

ASF, there's certainly no shortage of coyotes around here, or lions for that matter. The lions and coyotes have learned to live around us and there's far too many of them for the ranchers to take out. However, I don't doubt they would if they could. I don't have any issue with a rancher taking out specific animals. But they aren't being paid for the calves killed by lions or coyotes so at least I can see the economic reasoning here.

The wolves have not adjusted though and likely won't if not given a helping hand. They need much larger areas per pack and multiple packs to ensure good genetics. This is why they've only been introduced in a few places that provide those things, ie Yellowstone and the Gila. Even so, they run afoul of the local ranchers in both places. And in these cases the ranchers are being compensated for the livestock, I would assume but I'm not sure it's at the market price. So if they don't lose money, for those particular calves/sheep they are making the money with out having to spend the money to raise it or for that matter risk the possibility of it dying from something else. How can you still be angry enough to kill them on sight, which I know they do? That's irrational fear.

[AsburySkinsFan]

How can you still be angry enough to kill them on sight, which I know they do? That's irrational fear.

I certainly agree with your sentiment, but I know the farmers around here think of killing a coyote on sight as insurance. However, these farmers are not compensated for their losses like those out west; for those ranchers that are compensated well in that case there is simply no excuse.

[skins4me58203]

How many people you know hunt to put food on the table? The american diet never consisted of Deer, etc. We don't eat these animals, yet we hunt them. I can understand if you we needed to hunt to eat. But we have cattle, chicken etc., that are produced in large enough numbers that we can eat with out plucking buck shot out of our meals. I persoanlly think that is a weak arguement. This whole thing issue centers around mis treatment of animals. Yet no body talks about the exstintion that is occuring with the Snow Leopard, or other animals that are being hunted to exstinction. Now everybody is angry because they think that these dogs are their pet Spot. It's none sense. And to feel that hunting is different when you are actually killing the animal is outrageous to me. These dogs are fighting. SO what is the difference between a Dog fight and boxing match, or The Ultimate Fighting Matches?

Which brings me to the reason I say it is racial. When it involves a counter culture or a culture that is not seen as part of the majority's norms, it is banished. And holding Michael Vick as the poster boy for the Evil Dog Fighter is wrong. Our society wants violence, but we want violence our way. Just ask people about the end to the Sapranos. This is a deeper issue than Dog fighting in my opinion.

You need to move out of the city buddy. People do eat the animals they hunt. Deer is very tasty.

[Rocky21]

Perhaps if the OP thinks that the illegality of dog fighting is racially motivated this point may be not understood, but there are many differences between dog fighting and hunting.

The biggest one to me is ethical hunters only take shots that are likely to result in clean, sportsmanlike kills. The shot should be certain and kill as quickly as possible.

In dogfighting, dogs are bred to be mean and the fights last as long as necessary until one dog is killed. One attempts to be humane (if that word applies here), one is not.

[Kosher Ham]

A sportsman is still a killer of an innocent animal.

[The 12th Commandment]

A sportsman is still a killer of an innocent animal.

So is the migrant worker at the slaughterhouse.

[Kosher Ham]

So is the migrant worker at the slaughterhouse.

Why does it have to be a migrant worker ?

[The 12th Commandment]

Why does it have to be a migrant worker ?

Read "Fastfood Nation". But to put it in a nutshell, it's one of those jobs that the rest of us won't do. Horrible working conditions and crappy pay.