I need to know something in a poll form.

[fansince62]

let's ignore the provocation and skip to the quick:

the relevant question now becomes "have we fixed our problems?"

- I would assert yes in the secondary. in fact, I think we have an excess of talent...especially if Rogers produces. every starter will have been a first round pick once Landry takes over. what a change from last season!

- Not so sure about the LBs. I'm no doc, but I have had a hip injury and..aside from the fact that they hurt like a mo fo....you don't recover right away...if ever. it can easily become a permanently degenerative situation. Fletcher solidifies the middle nicely...though I want to seee him in pass coverage. My concern continues be who plays OLB off Carter. We need a strong physical presence there. MacIntosh? Don't know. Draftees? Don't know...not likely this year. Marshall? Plays on smarts...not physicality. It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that the Briggs trade rumors surface again if he actually does hold out.

Anywho....everyone should be thrilled with the secondary.

[skins84]

DUH, our coaches can make no mistakes.

-Since they are the coaches of the Washington Redskins, they can do no wrong. And don't dare second guess a single thing they do because they are NEVER WRONG.

-I have learned from ART that everything the Redskins do is the right thing to do because they are the coaches and Joe Gibbs and Greg Williams know more than anyone else.

-If we don't agree with something the Redskins do, we should not talk about it, we should keep it to ourselves. It is stupid for anyone to think that we had a better idea than what the coaches have.

-Don't ever question what Gibbs and Co. do.

-Since they are NFL coaches they are football geniuses and us common people don't have any idea about football. (does this rule only apply to the redskins or is every other coach and gm in NFL history a football genius too?)

-Does this sum it up ART????????

[moviedude25]

This has to be the dumbest ****ing poll I've ever seen. I've only been on this forum for a short amount of time so I'm sure there will be others to follow but since joining I've never seen such a stupid thing in my time here.

With your logic Art your saying that since we the fans do not work for Daniel Snyder, we have no right to complain about moves this organization makes. Your saying that because Gibbs and company are paid to do this and work alongside the players they know more then everyone else and are always right. Your also saying the fans should shut up and apologize when they disagree.

Let me tell you this, I will not vote in an ignorant poll like this because you are totally wrong in your thinking but have not presented a choice for me to make. So screw this one sided poll.

Art have you ever heard of the freedom of speech? Are you always going to get offended when someone says that our front office is making mistakes with how we spend money and draft? Are you constantly going to defend every action this team makes regardless of who is running the show?

Last season were you defending the way Gibbs handled the pre season by not taking it serious and running plays which in turn made us not ready for the regular season? Where you defending the decision to play Portis in the first pre season game which ended up with us losing him and then costing us our 3rd rounder this year for Duckett? Or maybe you can defend the decision that Gibbs made by allowing the cover guys to not practice with the linemen which screwed up the defense last season completely? Or maybe you will defend the decision to continue to play Brunell instead of giving Campbell a chance last year until it was too late? And maybe you will defend giving up a draft pick to pick up Brunell and Lloyd players no one wanted? And maybe you can even defend in your own mind the signing of Arch Delux to that large contract?

If Gibbs and companies way of doing things was right all the time we would have won many more games last season then we did. Because we only won 5 games, we obviously were doing something wrong. If we won the Super Bowl last season instead then I would believe that this team was doing the right thing, but we didn't.

I don't come on this forum to see one of the biggest posters here saying something as retarded as "Since your not the coach you shouldn't ***** about anything" because that just isn't the case. Maybe you like the way things have been run around here the last couple of years but because I have been a fan my entire life the idea that Gibbs has a free ride here now doesn't fly with me. Gibbs version 2 is nothing like the version I remember. He got a 2 year free pass, thats over for me now. I want to see results.

I will critize my beloved franchise as much as I feel I have to. I have lived through too many losing seasons, too many disappointments to not have this right. And no one can take that away from me. If you want to drink the kool aid and think that management is perfect and they never make any mistakes then go ahead but your only letting your burgendy glasses cloud your mind.

[SkinsFanAnt]

4.5 yds/carry. 13 Sacks.

4.5 yds/carry. 13 Sacks.

4.5 yds/carry. 13 Sacks.

4.5 yds/carry. 13 Sacks.

4.5 yds/carry. 13 Sacks.

4.5 yds/carry. 13 Sacks.

The poll isn't really fair because the coaches obviously know more about their scheme. That's an easy trick but it doesn't fool me.

But whether they'll be successful or not is a different story. Remember Adam Archuleta? Remember Ryan Clark. Remember 'I can fit anyone into my system'?

I don't think we'll be successful next year. I hope I'm wrong because I love this team. But I expect teams to easily gain over 4yds/carry on us.

Regardless of what I know or what the coaches know about their scheme...I truly believe we didn't address the situation in the draft.

[Monte51Coleman]

Wow, the 74 that said they know more should just go be Patriot fans.

I know more than Bellichek, too.

[dent19]

Your the best ART!!!!!

[Burgold]

This thread needs Princess Bride quotes...

You've heard of Gibbs, Bellichek, Lombardi... idiots.

[skinsfanno9]

DUH, our coaches can make no mistakes.

-Since they are the coaches of the Washington Redskins, they can do no wrong. And don't dare second guess a single thing they do because they are NEVER WRONG.

I agree, I always find this a strange argument - that fans should never question the actions of their FO. Does this work in other areas? Do I know more about foreign policy than Dick Cheney, and if not, does this mean I should automatically agree with every decision he makes? (this is a rhetorical question of course - I bring him up not for politics, but due to his 9% ratings in the poll - clearly the majority of the US has made a decision here).

One primary purpose of a sports discussion board seems to be just this purpose - to voice agreement or disagreement with the teams actions, both on and off the field. Also, given the number of seemingly bizarre decisions that have clearly not panned out (T.J. Ducket anyone? Insert your next favorite 5), it just doesn't make sense to assume that the actions they FO is taking this year are all going to be good ones. I think we CAN agree that they think they're making the right decisions, and that they are making informed decisions - far more informed than ours are. But this is very different from saying they are making the right ones.

If we see atrocious Dline play, why wouldn't we be aghast that yet again, the FO decided not to address this? Moreso, those that commented "Wow, what a bonehead decision" when (INSERT YOUR FAVORITE BAD FO MOVE) occurred in retrospect now have history on their side.

[Skinsinparadise]

Did Atlanta win the Superbowl with Gregg's mentor, Buddy Ryan?

Do teams still hire these people, much like the NBA is an eternal home for Larry Brown? Yes. The only coach on our team that has a proven HOF record is Joe Gibbs. And he doesn't even coach. Either because Nascar is more important, his family or something else unannounced has taken his heart out of the game, or because of medical reasons we don't yet know about.

What this team really needs is for Joe to coach again. He likes to be called the "Head Coach." It sure would be nice to see some of that again.

Not sure what your point is in connection to my post, are you implying that since Buddy Ryan hasn't won a Superbowl as a head coach even though he did as a defensive coordinator -- and Gregg Williams likewise is our defensive corrdinator not our head coach -- so actually your point even though I am gathering is to take Gregg down a peg actually brings him up a peg -- so maybe am not reading your point? Or are you saying that Gregg does have credibility since his mentor in the same fashion as defensive coordinator won a Superbowl?

As to Joe Gibbs coaching in a more hands on fashion, I am with you!

[PeterMP]

Sure, they know more about there scheme than I do, but I'm not sure knowing that's worth much. My 5 year old newphew's soccer coach knows more about his scheme than I do, but considering the guy never played soccer that doesn't mean much.

[DeaconBlue]

This thread needs Princess Bride quotes...

You've heard of Gibbs, Bellichek, Lombardi... idiots.

Yeah there seem to be quite a few Vizzinis running around here. heh

[McD5]

Obviously coaches know more than me. They get to watch all of the game film, talk to the players, and see them in practice. They know what plays they are trying to execute during the game and which players are doing their job and which ones are not. All of the armchair quarterbacks we have in here seem to think they can analyze players effectively, but frankly they are doing so based on assumptions on what a players role is and what they should be doing. Often, their assumptions are simply formed by they blind hatred of the front office, which is just dumb.

Wow, not the case at all. If you follow the NBA, you know who Doc Rivers is. He is another journeyman coach that most experts believe, made the worst personnel decision in the league of the last twenty years.

He watched a guy named Ben Wallace practice on his team for 3 years in Orlando. He saw him everyday, inside and out. Against the voices of the upset fans, he didn't play him. He never started him, and Wallace was lucky to average 3 minutes a game.

He then cut Wallace. The very next season, Wallace started for Detroit, and was the NBA defensive player of the year. He won that same title for many consecutive seasons after. He continues to be recognized near the top of the league in defense even today.

After winning the league's top defensive honor in his first season with Detroit, Orlando fired Doc Rivers immediately. To this day, they still apologize openly to the fans--trying to make amends for a coach that simply couldn't recognize talent.

Was Doc out of work after the worst evalution of talent in twenty years? Hell no. Boston, a team with fantastic young talent thought "this time might be different." Now Boston is near the bottom of the league.

When Doc gets fired again, likely this offseason, will he be out of work? Nope, some other perennial loser will pay him a ridiculous amount of money to underperform in their city.

This same nonsense is played out in the NFL, to a lesser degree. Hopefully not with Williams. It was the identical case with his mentor, Buddy Ryan. Buddy had one success with the Bears.....then one decent season, and huge busts with several teams. The Eagles, the Oilers, the Cardinals and the Falcons.

Their personalities are similiar too......and Buddy lost the players in the locker room everywhere he went.

I hope the "snitch" article last season isn't a sign of things to come. It is hard to say if obvious mistakes last season were his fault, or were due to injuries. Only time will tell.

[Monte51Coleman]

Wow, not the case at all. If you follow the NBA, you know who Doc Rivers is. He is another journeyman coach that most experts believe, made the worst personnel decision in the league of the last twenty years.

It's all Doc's fault?

Don't Pat Williams and Danny Ainge get some of blame?

[PCS]

Yeah there seem to be quite a few Vizzinis running around here. heh

Inconceivable!

Give your opinions. Tell 'em what you think. No problem. That's what fans do and that's what places like this are for. I spent more than a minute myself in both Gibbs tenures as coach wondering what the....... And still do sometimes. However, it's always with one foot on the ground realizing there are things I just don't know. That's known, I believe, as competently incompetent. I know what I don't know, ( generally speaking). There are those,(judging from the poll), who are incompetently incompetent. They don't know what they don't know.

It's easy really. Yes. We can sit here and say there are mistakes they have made. They make them. Nobody is perfect. We can do so while they do it or use hindsight. But keep in mind that the probability is that for evey mistake or success they make or have, we see this >.< many of them. And of course, we get lucky. Fact they do this for a living. Have done so for many, many years. We're, by and large, posting right now for a reason. We don't know as much as they do. Duh. They design and call the plays, watch the film, know who does what and on what down and yardage. They watch the guys practice and are around them more so than we'll ever be. How, in all honesty, can anyone say that they know more than they do? Answer. We don't. It's just that simple. So while we sit here, (myself included), and go , let's keep that one foot down on the ground and realize we, at best, make a kind of informed opinion. If it were up to me, I would have a few people on both sides sit in for a few days with the coaches and actually get a good idea of what they're looking at.

[Skinsinparadise]

I agree, I always find this a strange argument - that fans should never question the actions of their FO. If we see atrocious Dline play, why wouldn't we be aghast that yet again, the FO decided not to address this? Moreso, those that commented "Wow, what a bonehead decision" when (INSERT YOUR FAVORITE BAD FO MOVE) occurred in retrospect now have history on their side.

I don't think Art's point is that people can't offer opinion. I can't speak for him but speaking for myself IMO when Gregg Williams' defense is explained over and over again by people close to the team like Art and some pundits too that we don't generally use our D line to put pressure on the QB but use the D line to set up our LB and secondary to do that job with exotic blitzes. When our defense ranked 3rd, Shawn Springs led our team in sacks.

We ask a lot of our LBs and safeties more so than the typical team. When we where great for those 2 seasons, we had no stud DE's that where putting pressure on the QB! So how did we do it?

Now that's a D philsophy and IMO there are only 4 main ways to shoot down the argument

1. Explain that Gregg Williams' defense really doesn't work that way and here's how it works. Poor Gregg is drafting LBs becuase he doesn't understand his own scheme.

2. Really all defenses work the same, i.e, if the Eagles let their d line loose then lets read our defense the same way. Every defense works on the same generic blue print.

3. Gregg Williams just doesn't get it, he's a dope, we need to teach him the value of the D line and tell him to stop boosting the LB and secondary crew, instead.

4. The idea that Gregg has any say in picking his own players is a ruse. Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder foist these moves on Williams behind his back and poor Gregg takes it kicking and screaming. When Cerrato picks a safety on draft day, Williams could be heard in the clubhouse, why why, why!

Again, its fun to discuss. And look I criticize the FO like crazy for trading away too many draft picks among other things. So this isn't me defending them. But really the main argument from what I've observed over and over again more than any is the D. And I can't articulate it as well as Art but he and many others have about how Gregg's defense works and it makes sense based on our stats and what I see. The way the Skins have drafted backs up how our D works.

If we are going to argue about it IMO a stronger argument is does Gregg's D work, Did we pick the right player, etc. But if we go on and on about how the Skins don't get it about the D line doesn't that imply that Gregg Williams doesn't understand defenses and we get it more or at least understand a facet of our defense better than he does? Now if we think that its fine of course, but I personally don't think any of us get Gregg Williams' defense better than Gregg.

Your analogy of Dick Cheney and his foreign policy moves IMO doesn't make the point. It's not that we are criticizing a move. In a sense we are explaining Gregg's defense to Gregg. It would be like us explaining to Cheney his OWN neo conservative philosophy behind his foreign policy and how he isn't fulfilling it. Unless again, you don't like Gregg Williams defensive scheme in general and if so -- your point IMO is on the mark.

[McD5]

It's all Doc's fault?

Don't Pat Williams and Danny Ainge get some of blame?

Heck yeah they do! They shouldn't have hired the loser.

This coach had the best defensive player in the entire league, a dominant beast, practicing every single day for 3 years right in front of his eyes! And he didn't even think he was worthy to start on one of the worst teams in the league?

That "coach" was supposed to be able to recognize talent.

Were the fans smarter than he was? Of course they were!

Did the coach supporters think these crazy fans should shut up? That Doc knew more than they did? Hell yes they did. The fans couldn't possibly know more than the coaches ever could! They are the experts for the love of God.

:laugh:

[Art]

Art, im pretty confused here.

Wasnt the idea "that Clark was not good enough and we needed an upgrade"

Wasnt the idea "that Archuleta was the upgrade" (ok this could be the player)

But the IDEA that we needed to upgrade from Clark seems to be very very very very false.

No.

Prioleau was considered equal to Clark. It was thought we needed one coverage safety to play in packages for that and Archuleta was envisioned as a hybrid linebacker, a lot like Bowen for about a game before he got hurt. Indeed, the team felt limited with Clark, correctly, because he and Prioleau were corners converted to safety clones and because Clark was too small to allow the type of pressure Williams wanted to be able to utilize there. Thus Archuleta was projected for that role, which is one reason you heard so much about his historical record or some garbage about having the most sacks for a defensive back or whatever.

The idea we needed to upgrade from Clark, who was nothing more than a good player forced to start for a lack of a complete player at his position, remained until we picked Landry and hope he's the answer. Even had Archuleta played the way he was envisioned to, we'd still likely have looked at Landry because Archuleta would have been something of an H-DB. Williams still needs that, but, may have it with Landry and have a complete guy there too, like Taylor.

That said, no one envisioned Archuleta being QUITE that bad in coverage, which, again, calls some personnel evaluation of our people into question because I know of at least one player -- currently on the roster -- who was said through a guy proven to be quite accurate that everyone on the team knew how bad he was before he ever arrived. I didn't pay that much credence when I heard it, but do more now .

[Art]

To those who remain confused, this is not a personnel question. When Joe Gibbs coached Gardner and a limited Coles, he concluded to make his offense go, he needed quick release receivers. He orchestrated a BAD value trade of a questionable player like Moss for a proven solid player like Coles. Gibbs knew the team had to improve in this area. He was right and right about the type of receiver needed. He was also fortunate to be right about Moss being that player, but, he could have been wrong and would NOT have been an idiot for getting rid of Coles.

It's the process behind the move I'm addressing, not the specifics of the acquistion. Again, when the staff evaluates who did the job they were asked and come out telling you our problem was in the areas we fixed, what logical complaint do you have? None is the answer. Your theory was obviously wrong -- and I shared it, so I too was wrong.

If you wish to offer your thoughts that Nelson is better than Landry, or there were better backers, or Patrick was the obvious pick at TE or a better prospect QB was available, you may well be right. What you won't be right on is in rejecting the need for the types of players taken. We needed exactly what we took more than we needed anything else.

That is clear as today and the rest of this offseason. I'm just hoping to make that as clear to others as it's been to the sane.

[Walking Deadman]

Well,

Here's my take:

A) The linebacker corp. was lousy last year. Nobody could make a tackle to save their life. Marcus was banged up a big portion. Neither he nor Lemar was able to do much and I believe that was b/c of problems with the line (see letter C below). Holdman was attrocious and what bothers me the most was that despite the fact that we weren't winning, we were out of playoff contention and Holdman still wasn't getting the job done, McIntosh wasn't starting and playing very little. At least Gibbs/Saunders put in Jason Campbell and gave him a few games (but should have been put in earlier in the season IMO) to get his feet wet and give him NFL experience. At OLB, coming in for 2007 Rocky is basically a rookie still.

That is/was Lindsey, Williams and Gibbs fault. And don't give me the "he wasn't ready speech"- he couldn't have done much worse than Holdman, hell if there were only 10 guys on the field (no WLB) the air may have done as well. Also, McCune was lost to Miami when we left him on the practice squad.

The DB position was the way it was b/c again of our coaching staff, FO and injuries. When Springs gets hurt, this D radically changes and fails to be able to send anybody in the 2ndary in on blitzes (or if they go in like Taylor,Rogers and Arch did, they get picked up immediately). Plus, we had to have fill in guys like Wright (who may have been a good Nickle/Dime guy but sucked as a starter) and Rumph to fill holes for lost players like Smoot, Harris (not a great player here but adaquate in a pinch and better than Wright). And where was Ade Jimoh? This guy came in 2005 and covered Fitzgerald in a pinch at Arizona and played him well, yet I barely remember him at all play in 2006 (other than STs).

Had our FO not had a hard-on for a "big name player" that we ran past and smoked multiple times in 2005 we would be ok at S. Clark was good enough with Stoutmeyer and PP we would be fine. But again they wanted a "known player" and was willing to pay him Ed Reed money to only play in a few packages. Genius.

And again there WERE times that Rogers, Wright, Rumph and co. DID cover pretty well. But when you're expected to cover in man with maybe 1 Saftey (the other blitzing and getting picked up easily- ARCH) for 6-8 seconds it makes life hard and practically impossible to do. And I saw that in sooooooo many games last year.

C) Injuries have plagued or D-line as long as I can remember. Griff, Salavea and Daniels have been injured and missed multiple games in at least 2 of the 3 years since they have been here. When healthy all three can have game changing quality games and are impact players. Along with Carter (who ended 2006 with good numbers) they can domininate. Golston and Montgomery are (by all appeances improving) and Golston posibbly can split time or start over Big Joe. Now if they could be healthy and stay healthy and play maybe 14-16 games w/o missing games or playing poorly b/c of injury, then I'd say Art and the Skins coaches and FO are dead on and we could address LB, and DB issues. My thought is that odds are that Griff, Big Joe and Daniels will again be injured and miss a big chunk of 2007. I just don't feel comfortable relying on Wynn (older, no pass rush and also injured in 2005), Evans, Golston, Montgomery fill the holes (or not filling the holes pun intended) that we lose from those injured players.

I'm not upset about Landry, hopefully he and Taylor will make life very easy for our CBs and can help improve on the blitzes and tackling that we lacked or poorly executed last year. But we need D line help. I love this team and respect the coaches, but anybody willing to take that great of a risk (and it's bad odds that they'll stay healthy) better expect their jobs on the line for this if we fall apart and can't stop the run or pass this year.

If it wasn't Gibbs they'd probably be fired for last year.

(no I'm not calling for Gibbs' head, just saying if this was Norv, Spurrier or Marty- they'd be gone by now).

[McD5]

If it wasn't Gibbs they'd probably be fired for last year.

(no I'm not calling for Gibbs' head, just saying if this was Norv, Spurrier or Marty- they'd be gone by now).

If the defense blows hard again this year, if we don't blitz young quarterbacks, or aging quarterbacks like Bledsoe last season, when every other team in the league seems to realize this is a key to victory, is it Gibbs that should go? Or is Williams, the defensive coach, the problem?

I think we have the greatest coach on earth, even today in Gibbs. I still can't believe he brought in Saunders and his War and Peace sized playbook for an aging quarterback to try to learn.

I would give anything for Gibbs to actually coach again.

So if we blow on defense.....whose fault is it? And who should be held accountable?

[RedskinzOwnU]

The problem isn't so much as the poll is unfair, it's you're not honest enough to be fair. Our d-line sucked the past three years? This is LUDICROUS. It's embarrassing. It is the kind of statement that invalidates everything else you say, while, at the same time, making those read it wonder if you're sane.

Let's say you're right, and you're not, and the line sucked for three years but we were a top defense for two of them. Obviously then the defensive line isn't important. You clearly believe you can be a great defense without a front four that's any good. That's the truth of your convictions.

Of course, you don't believe that. You know to be a good defense you have to have a good front. And, we were the GAME'S best overall front four for TWO years in one regard. We stopped the run like nobody up front. Last year we were awful in every single area. The offseason was spent repairing two areas.

What do you think that means.

Let me make it clearer for you:

Our D-line, for the 2 years that we had good defense, was pretty stout against the run. However, it has never, over the past 3 years, generated a consistent or productive pass rush. Even when our defense was at its best 3 years ago, Shawn Springs was the sack leader, and I think Washington had the next highest number of sacks. As I mentioned in my previous post, which you may have missed, a lot of our defense relied on smoke and mirrors, and generating sacks with our linebackers and cornerbacks. GW has the luxury of doing this when he could rely on the defensive line to stop the run. Sadly, last year we had one of the worst run and pass defenses I've ever seen. Now, I think the secondary has been vastly improved, and the linebacking corps will be a little better, so that should help with the pass defense. But, if we can't stop the run, or generate pressure of any kind, two things our D-line proved that they can no longer do last year, then it's not going to make a huge difference on the field. Griffin is old and injury prone. Salavea is basically done. He had his 2 years of production and he can't perform anymore. Daniels didn't do anything all season long. He is only going to be older this year. I really don't care how many shiny new toys we add into the secondary or linebacking corp. If our D-line can't handle its basic responsibilities - which it could not do last year - then there is no reason to think that we can supplement that with a new linebacker or a new cornerback, or even a new safety.

This all goes back to the fact that our coaches are overconfident in the future production of our current defensive line. There is no reason to expect them to be any better than last year, especially with 75% of the line that was on our good defense being older than ever. I'm optomistic about Carter -but that's about it. Golston can't handle every down, Salavea hasn't been able get on the field much less repeat his stellar performance in 04, Griffin is unreliable, and Daniels has produced virtually nothing aside from one fluke game against Bledsoe. Again, I have no problem with the draft, or any of the selections we made, but I do have a problem with our overall complacency about the state of our defensive line in this offseason.

[TheLongshot]

They make decisions that are frequently wrong. Smoot was one and we've recovered from it by bringing him where he belongs. The odd thing about here is the true viewpoint that if we, as individuals, think a thing, if it is not done, buffoons are in charge.

Actually, I think Smoot is a bad example. It isn't like the team didn't really want him anymore. They made their best offer, and it wasn't enough. Course, one might say that they could have matched, but if they did, it could have hurt the team in other areas that also needed to be addressed. Fact is, with a cap, sometimes those decisions can be taken out of your hand, especially if said player doesn't want to be here anymore.

Probably a better example are the decisions to let certain players go and replace them with "better" players. Clark being one example. For us on the outside, it may not look sound, but I'm sure that the staff felt that they could improve. The problem is, what those intentions were are not clear to us all the time.

This is why the coaching staff knows what they are doing more than we know what they are doing. Sometimes, I wish the intentions were more clear, but the staff doesn't like airing its dirty laundry in public.

Jason

[TheLongshot]

But the IDEA that we needed to upgrade from Clark seems to be very very very very false.

Then, why did we draft Landry, who is probably worlds more talented than Clark?

Jason

[NattyLight]

I think I'm the only person on the board that has faith in Montgomery, Golston, A.Carter. Our D-line is just fine people.

[Dana87]

anyone dumb enough to say they know more than the coaches should be publicly beat down.

well 40% of the voters live in a state of delusion. I bet in your alternate reality your co-workers respect everything you say and think you should be the next Redskins GM.