I need to know something in a poll form.

[Art]

The results are skewed because some Cowboy fan guests have voted in the top part and some who voted did it as a joke, but, the number isn't really a surprise. There are, legitimately, people who have never rewatched a single play the Redskins have ever played who honestly believe they know more than the DUMBEST coach in the league when it comes to what they are seeing.

Football is an incredibly precise game at the professional level. A guy asked to step one yard to his right and engage a player but steps half a yard and doesn't get where he is going, but it leads to someone closer to it looking like he was beat is never something we know as fans. We can't identify that kind of things simply because we don't know what's being specifically asked on every play.

Here, we know -- some must not obviously -- that the staff knows what they are trying to achieve and who is doing it better than others. That may not mean any group did something well, but, in the evaluation of how we try to play, it's certain the staff knows what they need to achieve it, whether they are right on who that is or not being the mystery of acquisitions.

[RedskinzOwnU]

This is a pretty unfair, skewed, and biased poll, so I'm not going to vote in it. I think the team drafted pretty well, on the whole. I don't think we should have taken a d-linesman if the better value on the board was the safety and none of the d-line prospects merited the 6th pick. That being said, I think the coaches are wrong in their assessment of the adequacy of the defensive line. I think that our D-line is weak, and that our improvement in the secondary and linebacking corps will only mask that weakness up to a point. Our D-line has sucked for the past 3 years, this is true, even though we had a good defense for 2 of those years. Our D line is also playing worse now, overall, than it was 3 years ago. You can't rely on smoke and mirrors forever. We're going to have to generate a pass rush with the front-4 or our defense is not likely to return to an elite level. We don't have a defensive line that can do that, and until we get some fresh players there, we won't.

This poll is flawed because despite the fact that I have no problem with any of the players we drafted, I do have a problem with our coaches' assessment of the D-line. I don't think it was necessarily a mistake to neglect the line in this particular draft, but it was a mistake to neglect the line over the course of the offseason as a whole.

[Tarhog]

Sorry - I plead guilty, I just couldn't resist.

The truth is obvious - that fans DON'T generally know what they're talking about, much less know better than the professionals. Because it doesn't always work out for the pro's isn't evidence the rest of us would have better luck. I think thats the salient point.

[cphil006]

It depedns on the player available. I don;t thin we should draft a DT or DE because that is what we need, because the best DE or DT may not be any good... I think Landry has the ability to be better at his position than Okoye does.

I would have been happy with either Landry or Anderson.

[jayneal7]

I know more. Do you think I'd waste my time posting brilliant remarks if I didn't??

:nutkick:

[REDSKINSQ]

i trust joe gibbs with my team

[Art]

This is a pretty unfair, skewed, and biased poll, so I'm not going to vote in it. I think the team drafted pretty well, on the whole. I don't think we should have taken a d-linesman if the better value on the board was the safety and none of the d-line prospects merited the 6th pick. That being said, I think the coaches are wrong in their assessment of the adequacy of the defensive line. I think that our D-line is weak, and that our improvement in the secondary and linebacking corps will only mask that weakness up to a point. Our D-line has sucked for the past 3 years, this is true, even though we had a good defense for 2 of those years. But, you can't rely on smoke and mirrors forever. We're going to have to generate a pass rush with the front-4 or our defense is not likely to return to an elite level. We don't have a defensive line that can do that, and until we get some fresh players there, we won't.

This poll is flawed because despite the fact that I have no problem with any of the players we drafted, I do have a problem with our coaches' assessment of the D-line. I don't think it was necessarily a mistake to neglect the line in this particular draft, but it was a mistake to neglect the line over the course of the offseason as a whole.

The problem isn't so much as the poll is unfair, it's you're not honest enough to be fair. Our d-line sucked the past three years? This is LUDICROUS. It's embarrassing. It is the kind of statement that invalidates everything else you say, while, at the same time, making those read it wonder if you're sane.

Let's say you're right, and you're not, and the line sucked for three years but we were a top defense for two of them. Obviously then the defensive line isn't important. You clearly believe you can be a great defense without a front four that's any good. That's the truth of your convictions.

Of course, you don't believe that. You know to be a good defense you have to have a good front. And, we were the GAME'S best overall front four for TWO years in one regard. We stopped the run like nobody up front. Last year we were awful in every single area. The offseason was spent repairing two areas.

What do you think that means.

[McD5]

If Gregg Williams turns out to be a bust again this season, and follows the identical pattern of his professional coaching career up to this point--go in, fire a team up in militant style, then get everyone to hate him and run him out of town with several awful seasons after--the majority of fans in this poll, the ones that voted yes, will be correct.

Just like his mentor, Buddy Ryan. Take an awful team and fire them up for a season or two.....then suck wind hard.

Go to the next crappy defense, and do the same again. Yet, in all of the journeys, never win the Superbowl.

Rinse, Wash and Repeat. Thanks for the paycheck guys.

[Mackdaddydean]

Astounding that over half the people here HONESTLY believe they know more than the coaches. Wow.

[Pedro]

And, again, that's not been said here. What has been said is when the coaching staff evaluates their players based on the actual plays they called, can they EVER not know who did the job well and who did it poorly. Ever. Answer that.

Of course not but the thread is a call out/smack down one.

A loaded question with only one answer, being told there is only one answer and still... :laugh:

If some of didn't reply in the way you intended when you posted where would you get your internets fun from?

[Skinsinparadise]

This Poll is right on point IMO.

When we get into arguments about D Line for example as our most pressing need and why are the Skins to dumb to realize it -- the point by those that make it is really, well poor clueless Gregg Williams yeah many say he's one of the best coordinators in the league but he doesn't have a handle on his team's weaknesses and strengths and we need to lecture him on it -- in addition he has not clue about the value of a D line. Yeah we had top 10 defenses before last season with the same D line which was upgraded last year -- but that was a fluke. And poor Gregg doesn't get it, we do!

So if we ever ran into Gregg Williams he would be revited by our explantions and will take notes about the power for example of a stronger D line and how misguided it is for him to focus on LB and on our secondary.

Now am not saying that Gregg hasn't made mistakes, he clearly has. But I understand us arguing that we took the wrong player but as to what positions need upgrading that's a different story and to make a point that pretty much is a lecture about how NFL defenses work, and poor Gregg Williams or Al Saunders, etc have no clue -- well I think that's a bit silly to do, none of us are NFL coordinators.

Am not saying we shouldn't offer an opinion but IMO some of our posts are so strongly worded that they pretty much imply that our coordinators have no clue how defenses and offenses work. Gregg Williams and Al Saunders are regarded to be among the best coordinators in the league I would suppose for a reason?

[Veretax]

Someone tomorrow should start a poll with something like this:

Excluding the Redskins, which team which drafted in the top ten in 2007 is most likely to repeat at picking in the top 10 in 2008.

That should be a VERY interesting poll

[McD5]

Am not saying we shouldn't offer an opinion but IMO some of our posts are so strongly worded that they pretty much imply that our coordinators have no clue how defenses and offenses work. Gregg Williams and Al Saunders are regarded to be among the best coordinators in the league I would suppose for a reason?

Take a look at the highest paid coaches in the NBA. Larry Brown comes to mind immediately.

The NBA is littered with coaches that have great reputations, their signings with teams generate huge promise...and then they continue to bust out one after the other.

The NBA has at least 8 head coaches that do the tour over and over, yet rarely if ever deliver anything to the teams they coach. Yet, at the end of the season, there always seems to be another "playoff wannabe" that is stupid enough to sign them, in hopes that "this time might be different."

How many Superbowls did Al Saunders win with Kansas City again? Did Buffalo win the Superbowl with Gregg Williams?

Did Atlanta win the Superbowl with Gregg's mentor, Buddy Ryan?

Do teams still hire these people, much like the NBA is an eternal home for Larry Brown? Yes.

The only coach on our team that has a proven HOF record is Joe Gibbs. And he doesn't even coach. Either because Nascar is more important, his family or something else unannounced has taken his heart out of the game, or because of medical reasons we don't yet know about.

What this team really needs is for Joe to coach again. He likes to be called the "Head Coach." It sure would be nice to see some of that again.

[mikeyf316]

That wasn't the point in any way. The point, was, however, are you intelligent enough to realize when you aren't qualified to make comment. I am. Are you?

I understand where you're going with this, Art, but I don't exactly agree with it. My time, loyalty, money and emotion invested as a fan of this team should qualify me to make comment. If a dedicated fan of the team doesn't have the knowledge to be able to comment on their team, what's the point is supporting the team?

I just have to realize that my comments shouldn't carry any weight with the coaching staff unless I have the professional resume in NFL football. I think that's really the issue here: people don't realize that their viewpoint isn't the be-all, end-all of how the team should be operating. That's where your poll is correct. People give themselves too much credit and assume their opinions should carry weight with the FO.

I should be free to speak about how the team is and should be, and the team should be free to listen or ignore my statements at their discretion.

[Art]

Mikey,

Your distinction is a good one and more what I'm aiming at. People here legitimately believe their views, if not followed, are a sign of a lack of knowledge from those who made the decisions. I was very upset we didn't retain Smooty a couple years ago. But, I didn't allow my evaluation as to why we should have to lead me to believe the people who didn't follow my view were idiots.

They make decisions that are frequently wrong. Smoot was one and we've recovered from it by bringing him where he belongs. The odd thing about here is the true viewpoint that if we, as individuals, think a thing, if it is not done, buffoons are in charge.

I've specifically pointed a couple times in this thread that while the staff of our team watch each play we play hundreds of times, most here don't even see EVERY play once. I mean, we miss one in the bathroom or whatever :0. We have impressions and ideas and many of them are good and ultimately more right than those of the men in charge.

But, when it comes to telling you the types of players they need to accomplish the things they are trying to accomplish, don't we have to assume our views are flawed if they are not in concert with the staff. We may think Williams must have a dominating front four at rushing the passer, but, none of us can prove he does need that to make a defense go. So, ought we not presume the value he puts on players is known to him, whether he gets the players right or not.

[mikeyf316]

Art -

Thanks for the further clarification. I figured that's where you were at, but that one statement had thrown me.

[HEavyJumbo85]

Take a look at the highest paid coaches in the NBA. Larry Brown comes to mind immediately.

The NBA is littered with coaches that have great reputations, their signings with teams generate huge promise...and then they continue to bust out one after the other.

The NBA has at least 8 head coaches that do the tour over and over, yet rarely if ever deliver anything to the teams they coach. Yet, at the end of the season, there always seems to be another "playoff wannabe" that is stupid enough to sign them, in hopes that "this time might be different."

No offense, but I think Phil Jackson has a few Championships(9 I think ) with 2 different teams. Pat Riley had a few with Showtime and now with Shaq and Wade. Also, Larry Brown isn't actually coaching right now and he failed in New York because of a dumbass Personnel guy(sound familiar). He could come back to Memphis, but that's besides the point. Also, no offense, but this has **** to do with anything. The NBA and the NFL aren't even close to being comparable on any level. Do you see any 10-day contracts in the NFL? didn't think so...

How many Superbowls did Al Saunders win with Kansas City again? Did Buffalo win the Superbowl with Gregg Williams?

St. Louis won the Super Bowl with Al Saunders on that staff. Tennessee went to the Super Bowl and lost to that St. Louis Team with Gregg Williams as their D Coordinator.

Did Atlanta win the Superbowl with Gregg's mentor, Buddy Ryan?

Chicago won one with Buddy Ryan

Do teams still hire these people, much like the NBA is an eternal home for Larry Brown? Yes.

The only coach on our team that has a proven HOF record is Joe Gibbs. And he doesn't even coach. Either because Nascar is more important, his family or something else unannounced has taken his heart out of the game, or because of medical reasons we don't yet know about.

What this team really needs is for Joe to coach again. He likes to be called the "Head Coach." It sure would be nice to see some of that again.

Again, the NBA means less than nothing and I'm glad that you don't believe in Joe Gibbs, good luck on the bandwagon come October . Let Joe Gibbs deal with the team and you can deal with figuring out a more efficent way to microwave a pizza. Leave the football to the football guys please and if you are a fan of this team, I would hope that you want them to do well, so stop thinking so negatively man and let's hope for the best

[dfbovey]

This poll is pretty ignorant. I'm pretty sure that the coaching staff knows more about things than any fan. Doesn't mean they are right and that we should agree with every single decision they make. Then we'd all be lemmings like Art.

After all, they thought Archuleta was a good idea, that Pierce was expendible and so on and so forth. So yeah, lets all just blindly follow and not form our own opinions.

[Art]

This poll is pretty ignorant. I'm pretty sure that the coaching staff knows more about things than any fan. Doesn't mean they are right and that we should agree with every single decision they make. Then we'd all be lemmings like Art.

After all, they thought Archuleta was a good idea, that Pierce was expendible and so on and so forth. So yeah, lets all just blindly follow and not form our own opinions.

And, here's what you're wee brain can't process. Archuleta was a GREAT idea. Not the player, but the concept of how they envisioned using him. As we've said, now repeatedly in this thread and seen you ignore, the actual players chosen to accomplish the need may not always work out, but, they are ALWAYS right as to the need. Landry can blow chunks and not be a bad idea. Archuleta did and wasn't. But, you'd have to be willing to understand how these two statements are both true and I fear you can't.

[skinsn24]

And, here's what you're wee brain can't process. Archuleta was a GREAT idea. Not the player, but the concept of how they envisioned using him. As we've said, now repeatedly in this thread and seen you ignore, the actual players chosen to accomplish the need may not always work out, but, they are ALWAYS right as to the need. Landry can blow chunks and not be a bad idea. Archuleta did and wasn't. But, you'd have to be willing to understand how these two statements are both true and I fear you can't.

Art, im pretty confused here.

Wasnt the idea "that Clark was not good enough and we needed an upgrade"

Wasnt the idea "that Archuleta was the upgrade" (ok this could be the player)

But the IDEA that we needed to upgrade from Clark seems to be very very very very false.

[Sonny Joe Hog]

I voted that I know more, even though I know that I don't. Why? Because I'm pissed that we finished a crappy 5-11 last season. As far as I'm concerned, none of these coaches knows jack **** until we start winning and go to the playoffs again.

[Dirk Diggler]

If Gregg Williams turns out to be a bust again this season, and follows the identical pattern of his professional coaching career up to this point--go in, fire a team up in militant style, then get everyone to hate him and run him out of town with several awful seasons after--the majority of fans in this poll, the ones that voted yes, will be correct.

Just like his mentor, Buddy Ryan. Take an awful team and fire them up for a season or two.....then suck wind hard.

Go to the next crappy defense, and do the same again. Yet, in all of the journeys, never win the Superbowl.

Rinse, Wash and Repeat. Thanks for the paycheck guys.

Why do you insist on spewing this BS? Do I really need to straighten you out like I did when you pulled this exact same crap a month ago?

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3672500#post3672500

[DOOG]

I thought I knew more before the draft! LOL;)

Seriously, the poll for me is worded in an odd way. I think if any of us knew more we would be in the coaching profession. I would say to anyone who may be in that profession their opinions would be more valued than those who are not.

That being said I see an older DL and its much harder to get really good interior DL in FA. They get locked up generally, kinda like LT's. So I see the draft as the best place to develop them. Obviously the coaching staff has confidence in the pups we drafted last year. If they do then so do I. Safety was a need as well, we "got the best one".

I'm not one to beat a drum however and say how bad this or any other draft went on any particular day. Come talk to me in 4 years...then we can talk about the success of this draft. The organization knows their long term plans, we do not. They know how agressive they will be in FA, we do not. I think the whole draft in general can be a crapshoot.

Now, perhaps the coaching staff approached the D-line problem in a different way..perhaps a better secondary makes the D-LINE better is their thought. We just dont know. We are probably closer to hearing the truth about ALIENS having landed on Earth than we are to knowing the Redskins personel decisions. Thats ok too.

The problem in a vicious circle in sports. The owners charge more for tickets, the fans think they "are more involved" in the process than they actually are or will be. They want the fan involved, yet keep your mouth shut and your opinion to yourself. Unfortunately, it just gets worse and worse.

The fun is in the debate. The fun is taken away by a few indiviuals who either dont know how or choose not to debate in a logical or reasonable way and refuse to see both sides of the issue. There's three sides to everything, mine, yours and the truth. Lets all hope that it works out so our Redskins win more games and get into the playoffs this year so none of this really matters.

:2cents: :logo:

[Oldfan]

The coach who designs the system, whether it's on offense or defense, is truly the only person capable of assessing individual performances. Not even Joe Gibbs can tell on his own whether the receiver was late getting to his spot or the QB was tardy in an Al Saunders designed play..

On the other hand, when enough information is available to the crowd, the crowd is wiser than the best expert. There are studies of horse race handicapping proving this. No individual expert will pick more winners than the crowd over an extended trial.

If we were to take a poll and an overwhelming majority of posters identified the D line as the top problem, I would not be too quick to dismiss their opinion. You can't think of the crowd as individuals and simply write off their views.

By the way, the whole defense stunk so last season, I couldn't tell which unit was worse.

[Ingtar]

Obviously coaches know more than me. They get to watch all of the game film, talk to the players, and see them in practice. They know what plays they are trying to execute during the game and which players are doing their job and which ones are not. All of the armchair quarterbacks we have in here seem to think they can analyze players effectively, but frankly they are doing so based on assumptions on what a players role is and what they should be doing. Often, their assumptions are simply formed by they blind hatred of the front office, which is just dumb.