JMS Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Wondering if people think we will eventually win in Iraq... Win like in WWI, WWII; Loose as in Vietnam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Its not a question of will WE the United State of America win or lose in Iraq It is a question more personal to me, will we Muslims in the Ummah win or lose in Iraq? Will we allow the minor differences that divide us turn the entire middle east into a war zone, or will we rally around the ideas that unite us and start a different direction then the Muslim world has had since the end of colonialism America will recover, and recover far quicker. Muslims though will end up with another failed state, not because of American actions, but actions by Muslims Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d0ublestr0ker0ll Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Well I don't think we're "loose", there are way too many troops there as it is. But sadly, I think it will take many more conflicts to settle the tension in the Middle East. Iraq will be very threatened until that whole part of Asia is taken care of. I don't think the question is if we'll win in Iraq, but if we've started a bigger fight than what G.W.B. thought it would be. And who knows if we can finish it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 It's already over man. I think the theory behind it was good, but the plan sucked. This entire thing has been an a gigantic cluster**** of epic proportions. The rest of the world hates us and a good chunk of our country is pissed off. The country has been divided probably just as much as it was in the late 60's/70's. Was it really worth it? Chalk one up in the loss column, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozskin Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 We lost the second we stepped foot on Iraqi soil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 The war was never winnable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamingwolf Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 I consider it a win regardless of how it turns out. Saddam and his boys are dead, win for all. Also, I put in the win collum the field test of battle droids and drones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamingwolf Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Its not a question of will WE the United State of America win or lose in IraqIt is a question more personal to me, will we Muslims in the Ummah win or lose in Iraq? Will we allow the minor differences that divide us turn the entire middle east into a war zone, or will we rally around the ideas that unite us and start a different direction then the Muslim world has had since the end of colonialism America will recover, and recover far quicker. Muslims though will end up with another failed state, not because of American actions, but actions by Muslims This is wisdom, hes talking about who can really win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 The war was never winnable. I agree. Iraq is not a nation, but a b@stard creation of the British who feared a united Kurdistan would ally itself with the Ottoman Empire, and were ignorant enough to believe a foreigner would be welcomed as a legitimate king because he was supposedly a descendant of Mohammed. Iraq can never survive as a democracy for the same reason the USSR or Yugoslavia could not - if its people are given the right of self-determination, they will vote to break the country up. There is no one ethnic group that the other two would ever consent to be ruled by. Furthermore, it was fairly evident to foretell that this would escalate into a proxy war between Iranian Shiite fundamentalism and Saudi Salafism. Even if the Iraqis could put aside their differences and settle things politically, there is no way their neighbors would allow things to be settled democratically and equitably. There are plenty of good reasons we didn't take out Saddam in the first Gulf War, which are now all too evident. Hello quagmire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 I consider it a win regardless of how it turns out. Saddam and his boys are dead, win for all. Also, I put in the win collum the field test of battle droids and drones. I'm sure many of us felt the same way about the Soviets withdrawing from Afghanistan, but the blowback from that conflict turned out to be catastrophic. If they get any access to financing (which is likely considering the history of our so-called Saudi allies), the Al Quaeda in Iraq guerillas move prove to be even more lethal than the Afghan mujiheddin-turned-Al Qaueda fighters, because they will have more experience in urban fighting and terrorism than their Afghan counterparts had. Is it really worth getting rid of Saddam if it provided the impetus and environment for the development of hundreds of new anti-American terrorists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanos Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 I'm sure many of us felt the same way about the Soviets withdrawing from Afghanistan, but the blowback from that conflict turned out to be catastrophic. If they get any access to financing (which is likely considering the history of our so-called Saudi allies), the Al Quaeda in Iraq guerillas move prove to be even more lethal than the Afghan mujiheddin-turned-Al Qaueda fighters, because they will have more experience in urban fighting and terrorism than their Afghan counterparts had. Is it really worth getting rid of Saddam if it provided the impetus and environment for the development of hundreds of new anti-American terrorists? Scary thought but true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Is it really worth getting rid of Saddam if it provided the impetus and environment for the development of MILLIONS of new anti-American terrorists? Fixed it for ya Riggo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjah Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 I often wonder about the rationality of clearly delineated borders in some parts of the Middle East. Considering the cultures and geography, it's a bit silly to draw a line instead of a 200 mile wide smudge to separate some countries. The notion of a central government in Iraq that rules by any authority other than perpetual tyranny is pretty silly, considering the cultures who live there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Fixed it for ya Riggo Uh, OK, but no. Millions of anti-American sympathisers perhaps, except they all hated us to begin with. There aren't millions of insurgents in Iraq; the number is more likely to be in the hundreds. What the nitwit neocons apparently never considered is that such an insurgency consistently replenishes itself with new recruits from neighboring Sunni countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 I often wonder about the rationality of clearly delineated borders in some parts of the Middle East. Considering the cultures and geography, it's a bit silly to draw a line instead of a 200 mile wide smudge to separate some countries. The concept of a nation-state is western and doesn't really fit in Middle Eastern culture. People's loyalty is first to extended family, then ethnicity, then religious affiliation, and lastly to country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 It's already over man.I think the theory behind it was good, but the plan sucked. This entire thing has been an a gigantic cluster**** of epic proportions. The rest of the world hates us and a good chunk of our country is pissed off. The country has been divided probably just as much as it was in the late 60's/70's. Was it really worth it? Chalk one up in the loss column, IMO. This is about where I am. I trusted Bush when he said he knew what he was doing. That appears now to have been the wrong call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 The war was never winnable. Sort of, we won the war but forced nation-building is an un-winnable proposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Sort of, we won the war but forced nation-building is an un-winnable proposition. Not true. Worked great in Japan and Germany. But those people wanted to return to civilization. People of the middle east for the most part don't care if they live in civilization or under a tent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Not true. Worked great in Japan and Germany. But those people wanted to return to civilization. People of the middle east for the most part don't care if they live in civilization or under a tent You need to check history. Much of the nation-building we did in Germany and Japan piggy-backed the fear of the alternative and the natural desires alreay there. Further, most of the success in Germany and Japan occured when things like the Marshall Plan were rejected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 You need to check history. Much of the nation-building we did in Germany and Japan piggy-backed the fear of the alternative and the natural desires alreay there. Further, most of the success in Germany and Japan occured when things like the Marshall Plan were rejected. I've checked plenty of history. So much so that I have a degree in it. In both Germany and Japan, those people were told how things were going to be, and that they were going to like it. That's what we needed to do in Iraq, especially with people that have never had a form of government other than a dictator of some sort. And as I said, that philosophy worked out pretty well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 The concept of a nation-state is western and doesn't really fit in Middle Eastern culture. People's loyalty is first to extended family, then ethnicity, then religious affiliation, and lastly to country. Maybe Arab culture, don't include the entire Middle East. Iran has had the idea of a nation state for literally thousands of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Weirdo Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Why do people have such a hard time with the word lose? Seriously! Why do people add that extra "o"???????????? This is insane!!! You're 43 JMS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 There is one way we can still win with relative ease. Establish an fully independent Kurdistan and put a couple of permanent US Bases there. Not a complete victory for sure but it would serve our interests. Kurdistan would likely become a prosperous country which would demonstate to the Middle East what happens to our friends while the Bases would be used to conduct the occasional kinetic actions against AQI in AL -Anbar as well as be a visible threat to Iran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Maybe Arab culture, don't include the entire Middle East. Iran has had the idea of a nation state for literally thousands of years. Point well taken - my apologies. I suppose I was thinking more in terms of the leftovers from the Ottaman Empire. That the Persians were the one group in the region who preserved their own native tongue over Arabic even after conversion to Islam is a testament to their solidarity and something which makes their culture unique in that part of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmonkforHOF Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 What do you mean will? Despite the spin your gov puts on this whole debacle, it is quite apparent to the rest of the world YOU HAVE LOST! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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