1981 to 1991 Redskins and the Hall of Fame

[skins fan1010]

From my latest Blog entry at www.countertrey.blogspot.com spurred on by King's about face on Monk:

...let me point out one more bit of glaring bias that screams at you when you take a step back and evaluate the Hall of Fame inductees over the past fifteen years. Between 1981 and 1991, the Redskins under Joe Gibbs played in five NFC Championship games and won four of them. They played in four Super Bowls and won three of them. I would argue that the best Redskins team ever was the 1983 team, which is the only one that lost a Super Bowl in that eleven-year span. The 1983 Redskins were defending Super Bowl champions who obliterated about a dozen major NFL records in the regular season including the record for most points scored in a season (541 points) and average margin of victory (13.06 PPG); each helped in part by their still extant turnover differential record.

It was because of how easily they vanquished everybody in 1983 that they took their Super Bowl opponent lightly. Their opponent was the Raiders, a team that the Redskins had already beaten in the regular season and which played in the far-inferior AFC. [Ed.:Deleted incorrect fact about the Raiders]. If the Redskins had taken them seriously that Sunday, Gibbs would be a perfect 4 – 0 in the Super Bowl and pundits would still be talking about how the 1983 Redskins team was the best that ever played in the NFL. C'est la vie.

The point is: The Redskins were a dominating franchise between 1981 and 1991. There have only been five other dominating franchises in the NFL since Super Bowl play began: The 1960s Packers; the 1970s Steelers; the 1980s 49ers; the 1990s Cowboys, who won three Super Bowls; and the 2000s Patriots. (Don’t talk to me about the Vikings in the 1970s or the Bills in the late 80s-early 90s. They didn’t win championships. The 1970s Dolphins and Cowboys? Close, but not quite there.)

The 1960s Packers have eleven HOF inductees including Vince Lombardi. The 1970s Steelers have eight inductees including their head coach, Chuck Noll. The 1980s 49ers have four including Joe Walsh, but Rice and probably Roger Craig will be there soon making it at least six. It is too early to tally the 1990s Cowboys, and the 2000s Patriots are still playing.

So, how is it possible that there are only two members of the 1981-1991 Redskins who have been inducted in the Hall of Fame and only one is a player? That is the definition of bias. Jacoby and Grimm should be in already. Bostic and May should get serious consideration. They were the Hogs, the most storied offensive line in history. Their innovative and motivational coach, Joe Bugel, should be in already. Monk should be in already. If Carson can make the Hall, then Monte Coleman should be in too. If Lawrence Taylor is in the Hall, then Dexter Manley should be in, too. Defensive Tackle Dave Butz took on triple teams and still stuffed the run. Brian Mitchell retired as the all-time leader in all-purpose yards (returns, rushing, receiving). He should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer. Mark Moseley retired as the record holder for most consecutive field goals, most points in a season, and was the only kicker to ever win an NFL MVP award. He should be in the Hall already. Darryl Green will be eligible soon. If he is not elected on the first ballot, then we should ignore the Hall of Fame.

Look, not all of the Redskins on the above list should be in the Hall, but at least five more players should be in the HOF if the HOF voters are consistent with their previous voting patterns. Anything less means that there is a campaign against Redskins players akin to the campaign that King is now ending against Monk...

Read the whole thing: www.countertrey.blogspot.com

[CaliforniaSkin]

While I certainly think Monk, Jacoby and Grimm should make the hall, I can't agree with the others on that list.

You can't compare Manley with LT. I loved Dexter but he wasn't anywhere near the player that LT was. And Brian Mitchell a first ballot Hall of Famer? There is no slot for kick returners. He is not, and should not ever be seriously considered for Canton. Monte Coleman? He never even made a single Pro Bowl. Bugles? They don't put position coaches in the Hall.

Riggo, Grimm, Jacoby, Monk and Green should all be in the Hall. But I can't think of anyone else who should make it.

[JoeSkinsfaninNJ]

The Raiders couldn’t even win their division in a weak conference. They went to the Super Bowl as a wild card team. If the Redskins had taken them seriously that Sunday, Gibbs would be a perfect 4 – 0 in the Super Bowl and pundits would still be talking about how the 1983 Redskins team was the best that ever played in the NFL. C'est la vie.

Get your facts straight. The 1983 Raiders were 12-4, and they WON the AFC West. They also had the Redskins down 35-20 in the 4th Quarter during the regular at RFK before a great Redskins comeback. So, they knew they could play with the Redskins. Point is, the Raiders weren't as bad as you make them.

[scruffylookin]

Get your facts straight. The 1983 Raiders were 12-4, and they WON the AFC West. They also had the Redskins down 35-20 in the 4th Quarter during the regular at RFK before a great Redskins comeback. So, they knew they could play with the Redskins. Point is, the Raiders weren't as bad as you make them.

Yup and to add to that, they played without Marcus Allen that day too.

As a 13 year old knownothing at the time, I took the Raiders for granted and just assumed that the Skins would steamroll them like they did seemingly everyone else, but the Redskins should have known better and not taken that game for granted.

As for HOF Skins from the Gibbs 1 era.

My opinion is that the following should be in:

Monk

Clark

Jacoby

Grimm

Butz

Manley

Green

Monte Coleman is not even close to being a HOF player, he hardly if ever started his entire career. He was a role player and spot starter, nothing more.

[skins fan1010]

...And Brian Mitchell a first ballot Hall of Famer? There is no slot for kick returners. He is not, and should not ever be seriously considered for Canton. ... Bugles? They don't put position coaches in the Hall...

Riggo, Grimm, Jacoby, Monk and Green should all be in the Hall. But I can't think of anyone else who should make it.

From the Pro Football Hall of Fame Rules:

Any fan may nominate any qualified person who has been connected with pro football in any capacity simply by writing to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The only restriction is that a player must have last played at least five seasons before he can be considered. For example, a candidate for the 2007 class must have concluded his career not later than the 2001 season...

For a non-player, there is no mandatory retirement period, but a coach must be retired before he may be considered. Every nomination received will be processed and forwarded to the Board of Selectors...

So, Mitchell is eligible soon and Buges will be eligible when he retires again. If they had the greatest O-line and none of the players get in, then it must be the coach. I also agree and wrote that not everyone on the list should make it.

As for the wild card reference, I think I confused the 83 team with the 80 Raiders team that won as a Wild Card. I was still steaming about King's crusade and wrote the entry quickly from memory. I'll correct it. But, the way they steamrolled everyone in the regular season and the the Rams in the playoffs did, in my opinion, make them take the Raiders lightly. Theisman has said as much.

[csgunderson]

Green, Grimm, Jacoby, Monk, Moseley -- should all be locks

Bostic, Butz, Mann, Manley, Clark -- wouldn't shock me either way

Figuring out who should/should not be in the Pro Football HOF is very difficult because stats don't tell the entire story in football (like they do in baseball). And you can't base it on Pro Bowls -- Riggo only went to one, for instance. But I absolutely agree that it is ridiculous that more members of the Skins' championship teams are not in the Hall.

[pjfootballer]

Remember, the Steelers of the 70's were in the same situation, then all of the sudden in the 90's the HOF started voting them in. Monk should make it this year and Green next year. I'd like to see jacoby, grimm and moseley sneak in.

[JoeSkinsfaninNJ]

Remember, the Steelers of the 70's were in the same situation, then all of the sudden in the 90's the HOF started voting them in. Monk should make it this year and Green next year. I'd like to see jacoby, grimm and moseley sneak in.

Good point about the Steelers. I think once Monk gets in, then others will be voted in. Green is a lock, and I think Jacoby, Grimm and possibly Bostic will get in. As for Mosely, he's a kicker, and only one pure kicker is a hall of famer now. But Mosely should be in.

[SkinsFTW]

Riggo, Grimm, Jacoby, Monk and Green should all be in the Hall. But I can't think of anyone else who should make it.

Maybe Charles Mann. But not Manley. He went to 1 Pro Bowl. Mann went to 4. Charles Mann was a much better all around player but he was only there for 2 of 3 Championship teams.

[deejaydana]

Darrell Green will get in first time (which will be 2008). There is NO DOUBT ABOUT THIS FANS!

[str8jacket]

I was watching on tv and i can't remember if it was Peter King or that douchebag Adam Schecter or whatever on the nfl network but they said part of the reason on Art Monk not getting in was the fact that on two of the 4 Super bowls that we played in were in seasons shortened by a strike. We won both of those super bowls. And also because of the fact that they said it was Gibbs system that worked well and that anybody could fit in as defined by the various qbs that won games. And the various number of players that fit in at other positions as well. It's a disgrace and really shameful on the part of the nfl that Monk was not a first ballot hofer. Like Lynn Swann and his 5000 yards should be in there. You can't even count the number of guys who have 5000 yards receiving but Monk did great things. And the o line needs to go in. If any of them do it's Grimm but Jacoby, Bostic, May, and Lachey all deserve alot of consideration as does qb Joe Theisman. All these guys need to stop being Skins haters.

[HapHaszard]

Get your facts straight. The 1983 Raiders were 12-4, and they WON the AFC West. They also had the Redskins down 35-20 in the 4th Quarter during the regular at RFK before a great Redskins comeback. So, they knew they could play with the Redskins. Point is, the Raiders weren't as bad as you make them.

Another point is that the Radiers had the Redskins playbook, one of the Redskins linemen left it in the locker room, and it was at least 12 hours before the Raiders returned it to the Redskins.

[SkinsFTW]

Darrell Green will get in first time (which will be 2008). There is NO DOUBT ABOUT THIS FANS!

That isn't a guarantee. Monk still isn't in so how do you figure Green is a lock considering there aren't a lot of CB stats to look at like at receiver and Monk once had the most catches in league history.

[MaddogCT]

Maybe Charles Mann. But not Manley. He went to 1 Pro Bowl. Mann went to 4. Charles Mann was a much better all around player but he was only there for 2 of 3 Championship teams.

Not a diss of Mann but Manley should be in the HOF.

Compare Manley to Howie Long, who is in the hall:

From afparent:

Dec 11th,2004

This will tell you how good Dexter was. This is from espnmagazine.com

Howie Long, who is already in the Hall of Fame, entered the league the same year Manley did, played the same position Manley did, and is hardly the superior player. Long had a career total of 91.5 sacks -- including the 7.5 he had his rookie year of 1981 when sacks were not an official statistic.

But Manley shatters that, with 103.5 career sacks -- the six he had his rookie year, the 91 he had with Washington between 1982-89 and 6.5 more with Tampa Bay in 1991. Plus, he won two Super Bowl rings. Both he and Long were double-teamed every game, both he and Long were durable, but Manley was an almost irresistable force. The offense had to account for him. Or else.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84471&highlight=Manley

.....................................................................

Plus, Dexter's season high sack total was 18.5 while Long's was 13.

And Riggins went to only one Pro Bowl....as a Jet.

:logo:

[Burgold]

Actually, I think a case could be made for Lachey and Clark. Lachey had a relatively short career, but when he played was there ever a question of his dominence. He was one of the best left tackles ever to play. If the argument against Monk is that Clark was the one everyone feared and Clark is also a multiple Superbowl winner and was a great player, I think he deserves to be at least talked about.

Add to the list

Jim Lachey

Gary Clark

[ldsdbomber]

Good article but remember that it is possible (and I suspect the 2000 Pats will have the same problem) to construct a great TEAM without having All Star players littered throughout. Well, I should say without having players that are all star by the definition that hall of fame voters will register.

I agree that the 1983 team could have been one of the best of all time had they won the SB, but statistically the 1991 team was by far the best, and if you read Eddie Epsteins "Dominance" have a good case for being the 2nd best team OF ALL TIME if you consider statistics in a detailed and proper manner. I suggest any Redskins fan pick that book up and read it.

However, the 1983 Raiders were also very good, and should have beaten the Skins in the regular season, as I recall a late comeback gave us a 1 point win in that one.

For HoF I would say Monk, Green, probably Jacoby and Grimm, and perhaps Butz. Mitchell might have a chance, and as you say, Moseley should be in if any kickers are in.

[ldsdbomber]

by the way, AWESOME section on Monk. It just highlights how utterly and incredibly ridiculous it is to not have him in the HoF 1st ballot, considering the era. You also forgot the other one which was some writer who said all Monk did was catch 5 ten yard out routes a game, and than some guy worked out that based on his career avg he must have caught huge passes the rest of the time (the point being that it was nonsense that Monk only caught short out routes). I wish I could remember where I saw that article

[Riggo-toni]

Pardon my nitpicking, but if you want to be taken seriously you must make sure you have your facts straight. Mitchell did NOT retire as the all-time leader in yardage - he was still 2nd to Jerry Rice.

While there's a case to be made for Manley in the HOF, comparing him to LT is just ridiculous.

[kingdaddy]

The Hogs won 4 NFC Championships and 3 Super Bowls with 4 different QB's (Theismann,Williams, Shroeder, Rypien) and 4 different RB's (Riggins, Rogers, T.Smith,Byner). They still hold the single game SB rushing record for a back and he was making his 1st start in the NFL. They also broke the SB rushing record with Riggo.

How none of them are in the HOF is beyond me. They could be the most dominating offensive line in NFL history.

[ChiefPowhatan17]

I agree with the post, but the hall doesn't want more Redskins, the league and people associated with the league seem to hate us. Look at the way commentators commentate on games. They outright have a grudge against us.

Plus I agree we were dominating from 81-91, but everyone considers that time, the 80's to belong to the 49ers.

Future HOF'ers

1. Monk

2. Gimm

3. Green

4. B. Mitchell

5. Dave Butz

6. Jacoby

7. Monte Coleman

OK I know I am dreaming now. Only 1-4.

[Mania]

Get your facts straight. The 1983 Raiders were 12-4, and they WON the AFC West. They also had the Redskins down 35-20 in the 4th Quarter during the regular at RFK before a great Redskins comeback. So, they knew they could play with the Redskins. Point is, the Raiders weren't as bad as you make them.

Lets not forget that Marcus Allen was not playing on this day.

[skins fan1010]

I agree that the 1983 team could have been one of the best of all time had they won the SB, but statistically the 1991 team was by far the best, and if you read Eddie Epsteins "Dominance" have a good case for being the 2nd best team OF ALL TIME if you consider statistics in a detailed and proper manner. I suggest any Redskins fan pick that book up and read it.

Thanks for the tip. I just ordered it fom Amazon.

[FunBunch7]

The fact that Joe Gibbs IS IN the HOF is really a testament to the entire franchise during that era. I realize that there are other coaches like Walsh that are in PLUS they have a ton of players...I think the NFL should adopt having "groups" enterred in the HOF...

The Hogs as a unit...

Fun Bunch

Posse

etc.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think I have a better chance of getting in than Bostic. Has Bostic ever even made the cut of 75?

Monk, Grimm, and Green should certainly go in. You could make an argument for Jacoby. After that, I think you have a hard time.

Clark...maybe you can't make an argument....but Monk can't even get in. Clark is behind a list that includes Irvin, Reed, Lofton, and a lot of other very good receivers from that era. And once Rice and Carter and all they guys from the mid to late 90s get on the list, he is probably done.

I love that defense from the 80s..but aside from Green, it's hard to come up with a signature player. Maybe Butz. Honestly, part of me thinks Mann deserves more consideration. But it's not like it was the same defense during the entire run, like The Steel Curtain.

That's the biggest issue with the Skins' Run. The only real holdover on each team was Gibbs. The 49ers won 4 with Montana and Lott. The Steelers with 15 people. The Cowboys with the triplets.

The most identifiable Redskins from the 80s are Theisman and Riggins and they only have one ring each. Even Green "only" has two rings.

That run of titles is really really remarkable when you consider how it was done.

[skins fan1010]

Pardon my nitpicking, but if you want to be taken seriously you must make sure you have your facts straight. Mitchell did NOT retire as the all-time leader in yardage - he was still 2nd to Jerry Rice.

While there's a case to be made for Manley in the HOF, comparing him to LT is just ridiculous.

Puhleeze.

Make sure you have your facts straight before you nitpick. Brian Mitchell's last year was 2003 after which he had 23,484 all-purpose yards, the most in the history of the NFL. After the 2003 season, Jerry Rice had 23,182 all-purpose yards. My facts were straight; work on yours.

Second, if you want to be taken seriously, you shouldn't use inflated language like when you said that comparing Manley with Taylor "is ridiculous". They played different positions, but they very comparable players. Both were primarily responsible for getting to the quarterback and each had the same off-the-field problem: Cocaine.

Taylor played in many more games and wound up with 132.5 sacks to Manley's 97.5. However, they each averaged 0.7 sacks per game. Both were major forces that had to be accounted for in any offense's game plan.