Why can't I marry as you do? What threat is there in love?

[Enter Apotheosis]

I wouldnt say major flaws. I would say inconclusive.

I mostly drink beer now, but when I was younger I wouldnt touch a beer.

Its a conscious choice that I have made.

Do you choose which types of beer you prefer? Or is it just a subconcious impulse?

I think thats a bit more fitting of an analogy, givent that most of us don't choose to have sex atleast until we're teens.

[Kosher Ham]

Do you choose which types of beer you prefer? Or is it just a subconcious impulse?

I think thats a bit more fitting of an analogy, givent that most of us don't choose to have sex atleast until we're teens.

Actually I try pretty much any beer.

But stick with what I like most, which varies from type to type.

For example; I like Rogues Chocolate Stout, but not as much as Young's Chocolate Chocolate Stout.

Edit: I dont only drink stouts, I like Lagers, Ales, etc.

[redskingluvr]

Here Henry, reread this, hopefully it will give you some insight into yourself.

Henry wrote-

"No facts, no figures...no scientific data in this one. Just raw human emotion. The fact that I am a gay man is really taking a toll on me personally. It saddens me deeply, partially because we are different from the majority, and partially because it's just so different and it disturbs me. I think about it constantly.

Simply because we decided to be perverted at times and different, and thus 'victimized' ourselves and villainize society for it.

Cast into second-class citizenship via our own behaviour and it's social consequences, much like alcoholism or drug addction would marginalize me, I have been marginalizing myself and my friends.

Why can't I marry someone I love? Why can't we partake in the happiness of marriage? (You can!)

I have been deeply disturbed & saddened most of my life. So I was easily duped into this lifestyle by some older gay men and classmates.

Why suppress our desire to do perverted things and make it public, as though that will somehow remove the shame I feel for it socially?

All we want is changing every 15 minutes or so.

sigh.

no data, no statistics, no clever talking points....just the reality of the situation & the emotion it brings."

http://www.exodusglobalalliance.org/

www.regenerationministries.org Get some good help Henry. You don't have to live like that forever or go it alone. Bob, who runs this has been a ministry friend of mine for years. I worked for a counseling ministry for clergy and people in distress, and we had offices beside him and we became prayer partners and friends over those years. I have referred many people to him and he has helped them all significantly. I think he can help you significantly Henry.

[Art]

Why can't a man and two or more adult women marry?

Why can't I marry a 14-year-old, as I could in Canada, our enlightened northern buddies?

The sole problem with the gay lobby is they refuse to simply admit they are different from the rest of society because they wish to be. They don't ever have to understand the wish doesn't have to be an open one. It merely exists. Society has rules. Those rules change. Sexuality and what we find desirable in alters based largely on the images and teaching we receive from a very young age.

This is a moving target.

The only "natural" sexual drive is to breed. That's the single natural, shared trait. There's a slight natural deviancy from this in all species, including man. Some portion of gay people are, absolutely, likely born so. We can probably find, in this .0000001 percent of that population some trigger for how they deviate from natural laws of procreation and the primal instinct to breed.

But, for the majority of gay people, as the majority of those who are pedophiles in our society but wouldn't be in others, as with those who like brunettes over blondes, as with those who like chubby over skinny, as with those who like tall over short, NONE of these traits is inborn. Some environmental factors drive you to what FEELS natural, but, is merely preference of your own control and likely that will alter over time.

For example, when I was in fifth grade, I used to think fifth grade girls were hot. No longer do I think so. This is a simple example, but, as society and individuals change, so will the norms. In time, it is somewhat obvious, the gay agenda will be "normalized". Unfortunately, it won't be normalized for the right reasons that we simply don't care about that. It'll be normalized for the wrong reasons that because a fruit fly humped a beetle there's some genetic component toward individual preference.

Frankly, I find it telling gay people need you to believe they were born that way -- born against all natural laws and fit -- to inspire others to accept their perversion. But, even when we allow it to be normal as a society, you can't get married, because, marriage is the union between a man and a woman. You don't get to steal from others that which they've been raised to cherish for what it means. If you wish, fight hard for the right to have a union like marriage, giving the same rights, but, even this won't satisfy you because another part of society has a cherished word you need to steal from them.

Perhaps if you simply were more comfortable in your own skin, you'd quit needing to take the things I've adopted as acceptable away from me to make it yours. Find your own acceptable practices. That so hard?

[redskingluvr]

On the arguement over whether it is choice or not, here is the truth and both sides will find fault with it most likely.

All behaviours are choices. Some are done more automatically than others due to habit. Sometimes we form habits and tendancies due to surroundings or subconciously (we don't realize a habit or tendancy is being formed in us due to our response to various stimulus or situations), or a culmination of behavoiurs converging together in various ways. Those are scientific and observed facts that cannot be refuted sensibly. However those are not all the facts. Behavioural tendancies, likes/dislikes can be affected by the brain's electrical activity, but are not 'deciders' on their own. It only creates a propensity we can either obey or master, our choice.

Sexuality is influenced by hormonal factors in many. Those hormones are affected by the electrical activity of the brain. That activity is affected by diet, emotions, unresolved internal conflicts, decisions of our will, the habit of using certain regions of the brain in our thought life (yes that is formed by habit but usually not conciously at all, it is using certain areas of brain muscle in certain ways, such as an overdeveloped calf muscle from a habit of leg movement while sitting), and our brain's chemical makeup. Chemical (resulting in electrochemical changes in the brain's activity) makeup can be altered, changed, messed up, restored, affected by diet, sleep and other habits, even smell and exercise can affect it. Drugs early on can have all kinds of side effects related to sexuality and relationships.

All of those things are changeable by those who desire to and are comitted to being healthy and happy.

[Boots]

Truth is a moving target.

I personally don't agree with gay marriage or the gay life style. If you are gay, I think you have the right to live your life anyway you want. Your desire to have a legal marriage I think, also means that I and the rest of soceity has to view it as OK. What's it going to take for the laws to change? A generation to die! Truth is a moving target, and as the next generation comes along, the laws and what is considered normal will change also. Look at something like swimsuits. At the turn of the century, women were arrested for wearing swimsuits in public. Those swimsuits covered more then, than a lot of todays normal street clothes. Alot of todays swimwear leaves nothing to the imagination.

On the nature/nurture thing it's probably a little of both.

Also, many people see marriage as more than a contract between two parties.

In my own marriage cerimony and many others if not most, at the end of the event, the Pastor/ priest etc... says "What God has joined together, let no man tear assunder"

Clearly more than a legal contract.

[footballhenry]

Why can't a man and two or more adult women marry?

Why can't I marry a 14-year-old, as I could in Canada, our enlightened northern buddies?

The sole problem with the gay lobby is they refuse to simply admit they are different from the rest of society because they wish to be. They don't ever have to understand the wish doesn't have to be an open one. It merely exists. Society has rules. Those rules change. Sexuality and what we find desirable in alters based largely on the images and teaching we receive from a very young age.

This is a moving target.

The only "natural" sexual drive is to breed. That's the single natural, shared trait. There's a slight natural deviancy from this in all species, including man. Some portion of gay people are, absolutely, likely born so. We can probably find, in this .0000001 percent of that population some trigger for how they deviate from natural laws of procreation and the primal instinct to breed.

But, for the majority of gay people, as the majority of those who are pedophiles in our society but wouldn't be in others, as with those who like brunettes over blondes, as with those who like chubby over skinny, as with those who like tall over short, NONE of these traits is inborn. Some environmental factors drive you to what FEELS natural, but, is merely preference of your own control and likely that will alter over time.

For example, when I was in fifth grade, I used to think fifth grade girls were hot. No longer do I think so. This is a simple example, but, as society and individuals change, so will the norms. In time, it is somewhat obvious, the gay agenda will be "normalized". Unfortunately, it won't be normalized for the right reasons that we simply don't care about that. It'll be normalized for the wrong reasons that because a fruit fly humped a beetle there's some genetic component toward individual preference.

Frankly, I find it telling gay people need you to believe they were born that way -- born against all natural laws and fit -- to inspire others to accept their perversion. But, even when we allow it to be normal as a society, you can't get married, because, marriage is the union between a man and a woman. You don't get to steal from others that which they've been raised to cherish for what it means. If you wish, fight hard for the right to have a union like marriage, giving the same rights, but, even this won't satisfy you because another part of society has a cherished word you need to steal from them.

Perhaps if you simply were more comfortable in your own skin, you'd quit needing to take the things I've adopted as acceptable away from me to make it yours. Find your own acceptable practices. That so hard?

Here Henry, reread this, hopefully it will give you some insight into yourself.

Henry wrote-

"No facts, no figures...no scientific data in this one. Just raw human emotion. The fact that I am a gay man is really taking a toll on me personally. It saddens me deeply, partially because we are different from the majority, and partially because it's just so different and it disturbs me. I think about it constantly.

Simply because we decided to be perverted at times and different, and thus 'victimized' ourselves and villainize society for it.

Cast into second-class citizenship via our own behaviour and it's social consequences, much like alcoholism or drug addction would marginalize me, I have been marginalizing myself and my friends.

Why can't I marry someone I love? Why can't we partake in the happiness of marriage? (You can!)

I have been deeply disturbed & saddened most of my life. So I was easily duped into this lifestyle by some older gay men and classmates.

Why suppress our desire to do perverted things and make it public, as though that will somehow remove the shame I feel for it socially?

All we want is changing every 15 minutes or so.

sigh.

no data, no statistics, no clever talking points....just the reality of the situation & the emotion it brings.

"

http://www.exodusglobalalliance.org/

www.regenerationministries.org Get some good help Henry. You don't have to live like that forever or go it alone. Bob, who runs this has been a ministry friend of mine for years. I worked for a counseling ministry for clergy and people in distress, and we had offices beside him and we became prayer partners and friends over those years. I have referred many people to him and he has helped them all significantly. I think he can help you significantly Henry.

wow, so far I have tried to be as polite and understanding as possible considering the comments left by many. But these posts take the cake...thankyou for your insulting, misguided and demeaning comments. You've added so much to this debate. I have nothing else to say, Ive said enough.

[DCsportsfan53]

I havn't seen anyone touch this one.

All you guys debating whether it's a choice or not, should probably be asking Henry about it.

Why do that? They're not gay but obviously, they intrinsically know him better than himself AND are more capable of deciding what's right and wrong for him and what his rights should be than him. Duh.

[PokerPacker]

wow, so far I have tried to be as polite and understanding as possible considering the comments left by many. But these posts take the cake...thankyou for your insulting, misguided and demeaning comments. You've added so much to this debate. I have nothing else to say, Ive said enough.

society just has not come to accept homosexuality yet. people are afraid of you, and they will do what they can to feel more secure in themselves. the younger generation, which has not been brought up in such a traditional, religious way, is more likely to bring change as we come to voting age. look 10 years ahead and things will be very different and people will be more accepting of who you are.

by the way, where've you been? it seems like you disappeared for quite some time after you came out of the closet.

[DCsportsfan53]

So Art, what you're saying is, even though they prefer the same sex, that's offensive and unnatural to you so they should force themselves to be "normal" or become A-sexual? Could you guide me to the Fountain of Infinte Wisdom and Knowledge so that I may gain the infallable understanding of humanity and it's proper and right course as you possess? Thanks in advance

[DjTj]

This is a moving target.

The only "natural" sexual drive is to breed. That's the single natural, shared trait. There's a slight natural deviancy from this in all species, including man. Some portion of gay people are, absolutely, likely born so. We can probably find, in this .0000001 percent of that population some trigger for how they deviate from natural laws of procreation and the primal instinct to breed.

But, for the majority of gay people, as the majority of those who are pedophiles in our society but wouldn't be in others, as with those who like brunettes over blondes, as with those who like chubby over skinny, as with those who like tall over short, NONE of these traits is inborn. Some environmental factors drive you to what FEELS natural, but, is merely preference of your own control and likely that will alter over time.

Nice to see you in the Tailgate, Art.

You are of course right that being gay is as much a choice as those who like blondes or those with an Asian fetish or those who like big butts and cannot lie ... but I think that many of those people would argue that it's not a choice they consciously made nor is it something they can change. It is just the way they are, and although they may have pursued other traits in their youth, their true preferences were always there.

Indeed, when we had this debate 50 years ago about interracial marriage, it would have been easy to make the argument that white people who were in love with black people should just change - after all, it was just a choice. But for those people, it didn't feel like a choice. They were in love with someone, and it didn't matter what color they were.

Society will eventually acquiesce to gay marriage as it once did to interracial marriage because of the same reason. We will see that at the end of the day, it is about two people who are in love, and as footballhenry asks, "What harm is there in love?"

Perhaps if you simply were more comfortable in your own skin, you'd quit needing to take the things I've adopted as acceptable away from me to make it yours. Find your own acceptable practices. That so hard?

The gay community wants marriage as its own because in every other aspect of society, they are full participants - they go to work, they shop at the mall, and the post on football message boards. They have been accepted in many other ways, and now they want acceptance here. They don't want to take anything from you, Art. They want to join in the institution of marriage.

And so right now they are asking permission. As AFC has pointed out, they have been resoundingly rejected in most states. As you point out, they will eventually be accepted because that is the inevitable progression of our society. But when that day comes it will not be because we have resolved the question of nature vs. nurture; it will come because your children likely won't care as much about this issue as you do, because keeping gays from marrying will be less important than allowing couples to be happy, and because there is no harm in consensual love.

[PokerPacker]

And so right now they are asking permission. As AFC has pointed out, they have been resoundingly rejected in most states. As you point out, they will eventually be accepted because that is the inevitable progression of our society. But when that day comes it will not be because we have resolved the question of nature vs. nurture; it will come because your children likely won't care as much about this issue as you do, because keeping gays from marrying will be less important than allowing couples to be happy, and because there is no harm in consensual love.

right on the mark. we don't see the problem with gays having the same rights as us, and many of us do see the injustices of today's world.

[Kosher Ham]

I think FH, may not have realized some of the valid points that others have made.

You think RL, and Art are making "insulting, misguided and demeaning comments".

Yet at the same time you asked for certain perspectives which you have received.

Just because people dont agree with your preference doesnt mean that they are "insulting, misguided and demeaning". Just because people questions certain aspects of your life doesnt mean that they are " insulting, misguided and demeaning".

I guess I could see how it would be difficult to live as a gay man, even more than a gay woman because of the perceptions of many.

However:

A. That doesnt give you a free pass.

B. Many dont feel sorry for you.

C. You should have known what to expect at your age.

D. Some people will be highly critical and abrasive at times.

E. Some will go above and beyond to support you.

F. All of the above...

The list could go on and on. To come on here making this type of post with mixed responses from yourself and others, just suggests to me that you may need more than just a message board therapy.

Get with a support group and maybe you will start to feel more confident about who you are. Seems to me that you are doubting yourself and the events that have occured through some of your posts.

[Kosher Ham]

EDIT: Double Post.

Go Redskins.

[Teller]

I used to be in favor of civil unions, but against gay marriage. But I've recently changed my position.

Let gays and lesbians get married. There's no reason they shouldn't have the opportunity to be just as miserable as the rest of us.

[Mooka]

Just because people dont agree with your preference doesnt mean that they are "insulting, misguided and demeaning". Just because people questions certain aspects of your life doesnt mean that they are " insulting, misguided and demeaning".

Apparently it does because he thought they were.

[Kosher Ham]

Apparently it does because he thought they were.

And do you ?

[Mooka]

And do you ?

Maybe misguided.

I dunno, I'm not gay.

[Kosher Ham]

Maybe misguided.

I dunno, I'm not gay.

:laugh:

Why should that matter ?

Most people are misguided at some point or another.

[Midnight Judges]

I voted in favor of gay marriage.

[Mooka]

:laugh:

Why should that matter ?

Most people are misguided at some point or another.

I don't think you can really be insulted by some comments if you're not gay. Maybe if you had a close family member or friend that was gay.

[Kosher Ham]

I don't think you can really be insulted by some comments if you're not gay. Maybe if you had a close family member or friend that was gay.

Then why would one be insulted in a public forum on a sports board of all places ?

I have had gay friends over the years and working in the restaurant business for so many years have known plenty of gay people (male and female), I am not offended by remarks but at the same time wonder if those people have had the same level of interaction with gay people as I have had to make those remarks.

Same thing goes for the Redskins name. I am 50% Native American and I am rarely offended by jokes or remarks about my heritage. It amazes me that so many people that dont have the connection that I do to the race are debating the name of a sports franchise when most have no bloodline and minimal experience with that race. Whereas I have known many Native Americans over my life and obviously have a family full of them, especially when we are such a huge minority compared to others.

[PokerPacker]

I don't think you can really be insulted by some comments if you're not gay. Maybe if you had a close family member or friend that was gay.

maybe some people are empathetic.

[Henry]

If you wish, fight hard for the right to have a union like marriage, giving the same rights, but, even this won't satisfy you because another part of society has a cherished word you need to steal from them.

I guess we'll never know if that's true in Virginia, Art, because we just amended our constitution to make even that illegal. Do you agree with pro-actively changing a state constitution to make it impossible for gay couples to enter into a legal union of any kind, or are you simply talking philosophically?

[Mooka]

Then why would one be insulted in a public forum on a sports board of all places ?

Why are you asking me?

Henry was the one who said he was offended. You were trying to say the remarks weren't offensive to him.