Why can't I marry as you do? What threat is there in love?

[dreamingwolf]

Did it ever occur to you that the reason they "flop" back and forth is because they are gay, but face so much crap for that, that they keep trying to fit in by being straight.

you say this, but you refuse to believe that they were experimenting or exploring. While you think I am gay for believing I could do this if I willed it, you discount the human will for being able to explore beyond themselves and you view human as slaves to their condition.

As for imperical proof did you read the link I posted. While not directly transferable to humans it is to say the least intruiging. You have to admit, it's worth some consideration and more research.

where did they prove that homosexuality was produced by a chemical or genetic action, they proved that homosexual acts occur in the animal kingdom. I dont dispute that, what I dispute is that higher organisms can make the decision without being forced to by an unseen force. Prove to me all participants in homosexuality are forced to by this unseen force and I will agree with you.

If we can indentify homosexuals scientifically, then yes I agree we give them a group distinction. Till then they are just people who like the thrill of sexing it up with the same sex.

[HOF44]

where did they prove that homosexuality was produced by a chemical or genetic action, they proved that homosexual acts occur in the animal kingdom. I dont dispute that, what I dispute is that higher organisms can make the decision without being forced to by an unseen force. Prove to me all participants in homosexuality are forced to by this unseen force and I will agree with you.

If we can indentify homosexuals scientifically, then yes I agree we give them a group distinction. Till then they are just people who like the thrill of sexing it up with the same sex.

Did you read the whole article? By turning on and off a single gene in the organism its sexual orientation changed. I would say thats a genetic action that proved that orientation in that species is geneticly controlled.

[dreamingwolf]

Did you read the whole article? By turning on and off a single gene in the organism its sexual orientation changed. I would say thats a genetic action that proved that orientation in that species is geneticly controlled.

and what is that gene in humans?

Your completely ignoring humans will to chose what they want to do, you must show me that one is gay without choice before I see them otherwise.

[HOF44]

and what is that gene in humans?

If we can indentify homosexuals scientifically, then yes I agree we give them a group distinction. Till then they are just people who like the thrill of sexing it up with the same sex.

At least your open to that.

As I said it has not been found in the human genome yet. I believe the reason being with the size of the human genome most effort is currently being put to find genes to help with deseases with no current treatment. I have a hunch that when the funds are available to research it, it will be found.

Here is a question for you. If they do find it do you force people to be "cured"??

[Enter Apotheosis]

prove to me they have no choice in being gay, and we can start debating whether there should be gay marriage.

Can you prove it is a choice? :doh:

oh really? maybe i misread it then......

A lot of people misinterpret what I say.

ok, that was personal

Indeed. It is a petty argument and you are using it, therefore you are petty with regards to this particular issue. It's personal because it deals with you... was it an attack? Not especially.

this is an opinion that you use as fact

Show me the deep thought. Right now the argument you're presenting is very, very shallow. You can't possibly deny that, can you? I mean, my Swiss cheese analogy was dead on and you haven't even addressed or rebuked it.

another personal attack, and an opinion used as fact

Saying that I don't respect you is a personal attack? Last I checked, not everyone is the world deserves the respect of everyone around them. I merely stated my opinion of your opinion :laugh:

an opinion with no merit.....essentially you say i am disgusting, because i don't believe the same thing you do? that makes a lot of sense. i guess you just assume from what you've said, that everyone in the world lacks common sense, they are disgusting, and they are morons, just because they don't agree with you? look at the election results buddy, i guess the country is screwed, because 65% of voters are just as stupid as me. :doh:

There is a distinct difference between me calling YOU disgusting and your thoughts on the SUBJECT disgusting. Man, just let it go. There are plenty of people I disagree with in an ideological sense that I get along with just fine, even if I abhor some of their beliefs. And honestly, when is this country ever not screwed in some way? There is always something wrong.

Also, I happen to believe that that 65% is misguided more so than plain stupid and that that 65% is diminishing. Actually, in general I think most people are stupid... but with this issue its more misinformation.

oh please, all i ask for christmas, is that in the next life I can come back as wonderfully brilliant and worldly, and all-knowing as EA.:jerk:

You wish you were so lucky

as for now, i'll have to remain a low-life, know-nothing, retard, because i have my own opinion, and you don't agree.

Pretty much

does that pretty much sum it up? you stated your opinion, i stated mine. just because we disagree, it doesn't mean either one of us is wrong. can't we all just get along?

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die. :mad:

[ImmortalDragon]

I didn't choose to be straight.

[dfitzo53]

People have free will, and untill anyone can prove to me theres something that causes it physically I still think its a choice and not a condition. Call me gay for having that position, trust me Im used to it cause the entire democratic party assualts me that way everytime I assert that. its how they try to silence it.

Drop the victim act, because nobody is calling you gay. We're saying that if homosexuality is a choice, then heterosexuality must also be a choice. If that's the case, then we all chose to be heterosexuals (although I'm quite sure I never made that decision.)

You say people could over time turn themselves gay, but why? First, they'd have to engage in sexual acts which they found disgusting until they finally "changed their minds." What reason on earth would they have to do this when they can simply enjoy heterosexual sex? Second, they'd be welcoming the ridicule of an entire society, which is not my idea of a good time. Third, they'd be depriving themselves of privileges enjoyed by the rest of us, such as marriage and adoption.

So you can make any case that makes you feel comfortable in your sexuality in defense of homosexuality being a "race" or a "condition" by accussing any heterosexual that if they dont agree with you they must be gay if you must.

If you really think people are calling you gay, I have to believe you don't understand their argument.

[Enter Apotheosis]

and what is that gene in humans?

Your completely ignoring humans will to chose what they want to do, you must show me that one is gay without choice before I see them otherwise.

Any idiot can partake in gay sex without being gay. They typically have to be thinking of something completely different or trying very hard not to think about what they're doing. There is a tremendous difference between the act itself and the orientation... you don't seem to understand that.

[mikeyf316]

no data, no statistics, no clever talking points....just the reality of the situation & the emotion it brings.

I think you have every right to suffer through marriage as much as us hetero couples.

In all seriousness, I am all for it. I have an uncle in the DC area who has lived with his partner for 35 years (2 longer than my parents), and they were both a huge part of my life as a kid. I'd like to see them have the opportunity to tie the knot after all these years, should they choose to.

[dreamingwolf]

Drop the victim act, because nobody is calling you gay. We're saying that if homosexuality is a choice, then heterosexuality must also be a choice. If that's the case, then we all chose to be heterosexuals (although I'm quite sure I never made that decision.)

Its not a victim act, its how you and those on your agenda attack this observation. I never asserted that anyone choses to be heterosexual, that is the natural state I just said that people can will to be different.

You say people could over time turn themselves gay, but why? First, they'd have to engage in sexual acts which they found disgusting until they finally "changed their minds." What reason on earth would they have to do this when they can simply enjoy heterosexual sex?

Its quite revealing that you find homosexuality disgusting, I guess you reprieve that guilt with absolute subservience to the lifestyle politicaly.

Second, they'd be welcoming the ridicule of an entire society, which is not my idea of a good time. Third, they'd be depriving themselves of privileges enjoyed by the rest of us, such as marriage and adoption.

If you really think people are calling you gay, I have to believe you don't understand their argument

Ridicule please, they are hip as hip can be right now. This discussion is about them having marriage(adoption is tied to it). I know you need to fight your partys platform to feel some semblance of being and worth as a person, but all Im saying is just prove to me that they are gay and identify them and I have no problem with them being a minority. Other than that, they are just sexual explorers having a good time, and should never be compared to people who are definably a minority or a seperate group.

[dreamingwolf]

Any idiot can partake in gay sex without being gay. They typically have to be thinking of something completely different or trying very hard not to think about what they're doing. There is a tremendous difference between the act itself and the orientation... you don't seem to understand that.

how do you prove the orientation, what is your method?

[Enter Apotheosis]

how do you prove the orientation, what is your method?

Again, how do you prove choice? Do you have a method?

Orientation is based primarily on natural inclinations, which are inherently difficult to prove because of the complexity of the human mind and the crossover required between biology and psychology. Unless you can prove that sexual orientation is completely the choice of the individual while keeping that in mind, you should seriously consider dropping the 'prove it' argument... unless you consciously made the choice to be straight at some point.

A typical rule of debate is that you don't try to argue against a point if you can't successfully argue for your own point.

[DCsportsfan53]

how do you prove the orientation, what is your method?

why does it even need to be proven? Why do they have to prove anything to you or anyone else in order to do something that has no bearing on you whatsoever? That's the point.

And the religious arguement is bunk because marriage is an institution that exists both inside and outside religion. Athiests can get married. You can get married in a drive through service.

The raising a family arguement is bunk, too. Why can people who are infertile marry? Child bearing should be a prerequisite for marrigae?

The point is, all the arguements brought against it contradict themselves and it all boils down to some people trying to control, limit and cast judgement on another's personal lives. That's bull****.

[dreamingwolf]

Again, how do you prove choice? Do you have a method?

Orientation is based primarily on natural inclinations, which are inherently difficult to prove because of the complexity of the human mind and the crossover required between biology and psychology. Unless you can prove that sexual orientation is completely the choice of the individual while keeping that in mind, you should seriously consider dropping the 'prove it' argument... unless you consciously made the choice to be straight at some point.

A typical rule of debate is that you don't try to argue against a point if you can't successfully argue for your own point.

Ive been arguing homosexuality is choice determined by will, willing to concede that maybe its forced by some unseen force if it can be proved, and all the while agreeing that heterosexuality is the natural animalistic avenue.

I know your position is undefensible, but as someone who wants to desperately see your defense without any cute misdirections I demand an answer. Show me how they have no choice and how their will is predetermined.

[Insomniac]

Saying that I don't respect you is a personal attack? Last I checked, not everyone is the world deserves the respect of everyone around them. I merely stated my opinion of your opinion :laugh:

There is a distinct difference between me calling YOU disgusting and your thoughts on the SUBJECT disgusting. Man, just let it go. There are plenty of people I disagree with in an ideological sense that I get along with just fine, even if I abhor some of their beliefs. And honestly, when is this country ever not screwed in some way? There is always something wrong.

Also, I happen to believe that that 65% is misguided more so than plain stupid and that that 65% is diminishing. Actually, in general I think most people are stupid... but with this issue its more misinformation.

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die. :mad:

Well, I can give you one thing.......at least you're funny, and i'm being serious, that **** had me laughing, especially the end.

Actually, in general I think most people are stupid...

finally, something we agree on

[Enter Apotheosis]

Ive been arguing homosexuality is choice determined by will, willing to concede that maybe its forced by some unseen force if it can be proved, and all the while agreeing that heterosexuality is the natural animalistic avenue.

Yes, you have. But you haven't been backing up your arguments any more than myself or anyone else who champions the position opposite to yours. It's easy to say that someone chose to be gay simply because there is control over whether or not you have sex (of any kind). However, you still fail to prove that the reason people engage in the act is not deep-seeded and is not an inherent part of their being.

I know your position is undefensible, but as someone who wants to desperately see your defense without any cute misdirections I demand an answer. Show me how they have no choice and how their will is predetermined.

I desperately want to see your own defense, I've been asking for it for quite some time. My position currently has no real irrefutable evidence backing it and neither does yours. I just know that I, as well as seemingly everyone else who has jumped in to this chat, did not make a conscious choice about our orientation.

Your position seems to be that there is no such thing as orientation... which is extremely difficult to prove. In fact, if anything, the homosexuals that profess that they have no control over what they naturally prefer provides more evidence for my position than anything you've got.

[Destino]

Ive been arguing homosexuality is choice determined by will, willing to concede that maybe its forced by some unseen force if it can be proved, and all the while agreeing that heterosexuality is the natural animalistic avenue.

I know your position is undefensible, but as someone who wants to desperately see your defense without any cute misdirections I demand an answer. Show me how they have no choice and how their will is predetermined.

You've been "arguing" and putting nothing on the table. What we know is the vast majority of gays say it isn't a choice. I know that as a straight male, I never made a choice. I looked at girls one day and thought "yum!"

So where the hell did you get the notion that it's a choice? It looks like you decided on it because, if it is a choice, your behavior in regards to homosexuality is justifiable. So then it must be a choice. Right?

[dfitzo53]

Its quite revealing that you find homosexuality disgusting, I guess you reprieve that guilt with absolute subservience to the lifestyle politicaly.

I never called homosexuality disgusting, but I will admit that I find that particular sexual act revolting. I have no desire to perform it either with women or men. That said, it doesn't bother me in slightest if someone else is so inclined, nor would I even consider it my business.

I feel no guilt for my open-mindedness.

Ridicule please, they are hip as hip can be right now. This discussion is about them having marriage(adoption is tied to it).

Uh-huh. Hip as can be, which explains hate crimes, attempts to "cure" homosexuals, and the common mentality on this board that homosexuals are disturbed individuals.

I know you need to fight your partys platform to feel some semblance of being and worth as a person,

This line is just plain silly. I don't even belong to a party. If that's the level you've dragged this conversation down to, I don't think there's anything more to be said.

[DCsportsfan53]

This line is just plain silly. I don't even belong to a party. If that's the level you've dragged this conversation down to, I don't think there's anything more to be said.

They call that projection :2cents:

[Enter Apotheosis]

I never called homosexuality disgusting, but I will admit that I find that particular sexual act revolting. I have no desire to perform it either with women or men.

Poor Karla

[Mooka]

I don't understand how so many people can still believe its a 'choice'. Here I am a gay man...TELLING you that I didn't choose it at all. I did everything in my power to be 'straight', I did everything regular ole joes do and beyond....yet my inclinations remained the same.

How can someone look at me and say its a choice? Its a direct slap in the face....all the turmoil and hell I went through all these years over a 'choice'? Give me a break. I didn't choose to be gay anymore than you chose to be straight. Period. I'd rather not go further into the 'is it a choice or not' debate....I am telling you that I did not choose to be gay, you can either (a) take my word for it and perhaps alter your own thinking a bit or ( think I'm crazy or something and keep saying its a choice.

I havn't seen anyone touch this one.

All you guys debating whether it's a choice or not, should probably be asking Henry about it.

[dfitzo53]

I havn't seen anyone touch this one.

All you guys debating whether it's a choice or not, should probably be asking Henry about it.

He doesn't agree with them, so they claim he doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Kosher Ham]

I have a hard time with the "born that way" thing still.

[dfitzo53]

I have a hard time with the "born that way" thing still.

It's not yet conclusive, and my opinion is that we'll find out in time that there may be multiple causes of homosexuality. However, a reasonable person has to admit that there are major flaws in the logic which states that all homosexuals are acting on a personal choice.

[Kosher Ham]

It's not yet conclusive, and my opinion is that we'll find out in time that there may be multiple causes of homosexuality. However, a reasonable person has to admit that there are major flaws in the logic which states that all homosexuals are acting on a personal choice.

I wouldnt say major flaws. I would say inconclusive.

I mostly drink beer now, but when I was younger I wouldnt touch a beer.

Its a conscious choice that I have made.

However there are choices that people make without making a conscious choice. For example; I see certain things that others dont because I have conditioned myself to do this. I can understand puzzles typically very easily, I can see security issues with business' and environments because of living in DC and knowing many sketchy people when I was much younger. The list could go on and on.