Ted Haggard, President of NEA resigns amidst gay sex allegations

[chomerics]

What you have a problem with people waiting for all the facts to come out before forming an opinion?

No, not at all, I want to know what he thinks when the head of over 30million evangelicals is found to be gay. I want to know if he still believes the stuff that is thrown around by people like Haggard. They are frauds, almost every single one of them and they are preying on people to get their money.

Do you honestly think that he was "a man of god"??? He was preaching to his constituents (and that is the name I chose to use because that is what they are) about how gay marriage is a travesty to society, and he is out smoking the sausage after mass. People were donating money to this guy, and he was using the money to pay for his sexual exploits with other men. Do you not find this disturbing in the least? Or is the political fallout to great to admit that his constituents were duped, and used by this man to make a buck?

At what point do people realize they are being used by a bunch of frauds? At what point do people come to understand that "god" is not what these evangelical preachers tell them, but is what THEY feel in their heart? At what point do people come to realize that the leaders are just looking out for themselves, and are not true men of god, but instead the most vile creatures ever to walk on this planet. They are using the bible to make themselves rich and powerful, while duping people into believing that only they can show them the path to heaven.

Didn't Jesus teach of living a life of poverty? How many of these people drive Mercedes and live in mansions? How many Pat Robertsons are multi-millionaires, and live off donations and solicit money from their followers? At what point do you start to question the motives of the leaders and say they are not what we thought they were? Remember Jim Bakker? Jerry Falwell? Come on now, they are all frauds, and unfortunately too many people believe they are doing "god's work" when in reality, all they are doing is fattening their wallet and preying on people's poor judgment.

There are other churches, there are other options, there are other people who teach about god. If you are religious, that is great and I applaud you for it, but don't let your belief in god cloud your judgment in man. Don't be duped into following these despots who care nothing about the lord. Follow your heart, but don't let your heart override your head. If i was going to join a faith, the first thing I would do is look up their 990 form on guidestar, and see if they are legit. Most of the illegitimate ones do not send in 990 returns, because they do not want the public to look at their records. It is a loophole they use in order to hide how much money they are making from the public, while professing to be men of faith. They are nothing more then glorified scam artists preying on people who believe in god. It is disgusting and vile, what these people do, and I feel horribly for their congregation.

[Mooka]

Yes common sense works fine but yet again you missed the point. The point is when prophet first made that remark it was when this story first broke. Do you believe everything you hear in the news? I would hope not.

After Mr. Haggard responded to the story you could use common sense to decide whether or not this story had any validity (which it did). That is the point you seemed to miss.

I didn't miss it.

When the story first broke out, Haggard had already resigned. (first flag) Prophet was still chiming in even after Haggard claimed the massage was innocent and he bought the Meth but didn't use it.

[nelms]

The bigger problem this "scandal" exposes is the fact that people actually have any kind of devotion to these religious leaders. I saw a lot of this guy's congregation boo-hooing all over the place when his "apology" was read. What's up with that? He isn't any different than any other man or woman that has flaws. Some of the greatest leaders in this world (Lincoln, Churchill, Roosevelt) had deep character flaws. We shouldn't put our faith in man. That also includes political leaders, sports figures, hollywood celebrities, etc. People need to start thinking on their own and making their own decisions with their own heads.

[redskingluvr]

That's my point nelms, church propaganda about men and orgs is just that, propaganda. It is produced for one reason, to produce income and build the perception of trustworthiness. Some call it 'building the ministry'. etc.

Scripture calls us to 'know those who labor among us' (whom we give money to). In large churches or orgs that is impossible. Who really knows Pat Robertson? Or Benny Hinn? Or Paul Crouch??? Anyone besides those who stand to benefit by saying good things?

Studies show that church growth has slowed, mainly due to a shift in financial support, away from missions, to mega ministries. Mega ministries rake in millions annually, and do what with it? Travel? Live nice? Buy jets? Buildings?

In other words, the money that used to go to missionaries who now get marginalized and pushed to the side, now goes to large minitries who claim their thing is 'God' and bring that cloud of doubt over anyone but their few associates. It is like business monopoly thru PR tactics. Advertising replaces relationship, one liners replaces fruit.

People should give, it releases rivers of God's goodness. But somehow our giving has been manipulated into the hands of a few skillful and greedy men.

Right now 90% of money given to christian purposes goes to 10-15% of the ministers out there. Being in the mission field for decades I see who really does what. I know what World Vision does and doesn't do. I know what the big names do and don't do.

Most of the time they come to mission field, get missionaries to work for them for free, then bring their cameras, take pics of what happened, and present it as tho they pulled it off due to the offerings. All the offerings did was pay their plane tickets and line their pockets. The rest was done for free for them by real missionaries who noone will give a dime to, cuz they r 'not trustworthy', unknown, etc.

That is how the real missions world rolls out. Frankly, in terms of seeing one such man go down, although I don't rejoice, I have to say in part, "It's about time. Maybe this will wake the church up to the gross and cruel injustice of 10% of the levitical leadership getting 90% of the money while the rest starve and try to work and minister." Down here it is rampant, all the money and favor goes to a few, who leave others destitute and could care less.

I know some who cannot get their car fixed, have not been off the island in years, while others who are younger, in their 20s, cater to the big names, and have traveled incessantly since their arrival here, have new cars, and do NOTHING to help those they see going thru hard times. Their hearts are hard, and their minds deceived. Instead they try to bring them under weird and false judgements.

I wonder how many millions Ted took in that should have been going to others. I wonder what they could have accomplished with it. We will never know cuz that money is mostly already gone. Right into the enemy of the church's hands. It is a sad and humbling day for the church.

You see, I and many other missionaries I know have written those big name ministries asking for help. The response is always the same. 'There are not many funds available for those sorts of things unfortunately." However, they have money for jets, 10k/night hotel rooms, live like kings, have personal assistants, extravagant wardrobes, cruises, travel extensively, eat out almost every day, etc etc. But once you send them a letter asking for help it does do one thing, it gets you on their mailing list for help. So the same people who tell you they don't have moneyto help you out, have money to live like kings, and the money for printing multicolor ads asking for donations by the thousands and even millions to solicit more money to inappropriately spend.

I had an interesting thing happen one year. I wrote to three such big ministries. You all know them.(TBN, Benny Hinn, Mahesh Chavda)

I got the same response from them all, one sent me a photocopy of my letter with a date on it, and an apology for 'not having enough money to help' along with an explanation of how giving to them would help us....anyway the date on that letter, was the same date one of their associates was busted for spending 10k on two different hotel rooms for his daughter's boyfriend. God has an ironic sense of humor. No money to help others. But money for that.

My opinion, is alot of them are going to get exposed or fall publicly if they don't repent. Since they are way too proud and arrogant to ever repent, that only leaves one option. So in an odd way, this guy who told the press these things, even if it was not all true, did us christians and the real missionairies a huge favor.

As one minister I know who has observed the same garbage for decades said to me, "The same measure they give out to others will one day be all they have left."

[stevenaa]

That's my point nelms, church propaganda about men and orgs is just that, propaganda. It is produced for one reason, to produce income and build the perception of trustworthiness. Some call it 'building the ministry'. etc.

Scripture calls us to 'know those who labor among us' (whom we give money to). In large churches or orgs that is impossible. Who really knows Pat Robertson? Or Benny Hinn? Or Paul Crouch??? Anyone besides those who stand to benefit by saying good things?

Studies show that church growth has slowed, mainly due to a shift in financial support, away from missions, to mega ministries. Mega ministries rake in millions annually, and do what with it? Travel? Live nice? Buy jets? Buildings?

In other words, the money that used to go to missionaries who now get marginalized and pushed to the side, now goes to large minitries who claim their thing is 'God' and bring that cloud of doubt over anyone but their few associates. It is like business monopoly thru PR tactics. Advertising replaces relationship, one liners replaces fruit.

People should give, it releases rivers of God's goodness. But somehow our giving has been manipulated into the hands of a few skillful and greedy men.

Right now 90% of money given to christian purposes goes to 10-15% of the ministers out there. Being in the mission field for decades I see who really does what. I know what World Vision does and doesn't do. I know what the big names do and don't do.

Most of the time they come to mission field, get missionaries to work for them for free, then bring their cameras, take pics of what happened, and present it as tho they pulled it off due to the offerings. All the offerings did was pay their plane tickets and line their pockets. The rest was done for free for them by real missionaries who noone will give a dime to, cuz they r 'not trustworthy', unknown, etc.

That is how the real missions world rolls out. Frankly, in terms of seeing one such man go down, although I don't rejoice, I have to say in part, "It's about time. Maybe this will wake the church up to the gross and cruel injustice of 10% of the levitical leadership getting 90% of the money while the rest starve and try to work and minister." Down here it is rampant, all the money and favor goes to a few, who leave others destitute and could care less.

I know some who cannot get their car fixed, have not been off the island in years, while others who are younger, in their 20s, cater to the big names, and have traveled incessantly since their arrival here, have new cars, and do NOTHING to help those they see going thru hard times. Their hearts are hard, and their minds deceived. Instead they try to bring them under weird and false judgements.

I wonder how many millions Ted took in that should have been going to others. I wonder what they could have accomplished with it. We will never know cuz that money is mostly already gone. Right into the enemy of the church's hands. It is a sad and humbling day for the church.

You see, I and many other missionaries I know have written those big name ministries asking for help. The response is always the same. 'There are not many funds available for those sorts of things unfortunately." However, they have money for jets, 10k/night hotel rooms, live like kings, have personal assistants, extravagant wardrobes, cruises, travel extensively, eat out almost every day, etc etc. But once you send them a letter asking for help it does do one thing, it gets you on their mailing list for help. So the same people who tell you they don't have moneyto help you out, have money to live like kings, and the money for printing multicolor ads asking for donations by the thousands and even millions to solicit more money to inappropriately spend.

I had an interesting thing happen one year. I wrote to three such big ministries. You all know them.(TBN, Benny Hinn, Mahesh Chavda)

I got the same response from them all, one sent me a photocopy of my letter with a date on it, and an apology for 'not having enough money to help' along with an explanation of how giving to them would help us....anyway the date on that letter, was the same date one of their associates was busted for spending 10k on two different hotel rooms for his daughter's boyfriend. God has an ironic sense of humor. No money to help others. But money for that.

My opinion, is alot of them are going to get exposed or fall publicly if they don't repent. Since they are way too proud and arrogant to ever repent, that only leaves one option. So in an odd way, this guy who told the press these things, even if it was not all true, did us christians and the real missionairies a huge favor.

As one minister I know who has observed the same garbage for decades said to me, "The same measure they give out to others will one day be all they have left."

One word sums it up. Charisma. They sell the goods. What amazes me, having sat through sermons in Charismatic Churches is the lack of time on Jesus and the amount of time in getting your "Blessings". They paint great, colorful naratives of people rising from poverty to wealth. It's preached as a covenent of God that we are to be blessed beyond our wildest imagination. It's like an Amway convention. Get rich, never be sick. Just believe and use positive suggestion. It's really cultish.

Anyway, to the topic at hand. You can't help but look at this situation and wonder if he's even a Christian. It is sad to say as a Christian, I find no surprise when these types of things happen.

[stevenaa]

No, not at all, I want to know what he thinks when the head of over 30million evangelicals is found to be gay. I want to know if he still believes the stuff that is thrown around by people like Haggard. They are frauds, almost every single one of them and they are preying on people to get their money.

Do you honestly think that he was "a man of god"??? He was preaching to his constituents (and that is the name I chose to use because that is what they are) about how gay marriage is a travesty to society, and he is out smoking the sausage after mass. People were donating money to this guy, and he was using the money to pay for his sexual exploits with other men. Do you not find this disturbing in the least? Or is the political fallout to great to admit that his constituents were duped, and used by this man to make a buck?

At what point do people realize they are being used by a bunch of frauds? At what point do people come to understand that "god" is not what these evangelical preachers tell them, but is what THEY feel in their heart? At what point do people come to realize that the leaders are just looking out for themselves, and are not true men of god, but instead the most vile creatures ever to walk on this planet. They are using the bible to make themselves rich and powerful, while duping people into believing that only they can show them the path to heaven.

Didn't Jesus teach of living a life of poverty? How many of these people drive Mercedes and live in mansions? How many Pat Robertsons are multi-millionaires, and live off donations and solicit money from their followers? At what point do you start to question the motives of the leaders and say they are not what we thought they were? Remember Jim Bakker? Jerry Falwell? Come on now, they are all frauds, and unfortunately too many people believe they are doing "god's work" when in reality, all they are doing is fattening their wallet and preying on people's poor judgment.

There are other churches, there are other options, there are other people who teach about god. If you are religious, that is great and I applaud you for it, but don't let your belief in god cloud your judgment in man. Don't be duped into following these despots who care nothing about the lord. Follow your heart, but don't let your heart override your head. If i was going to join a faith, the first thing I would do is look up their 990 form on guidestar, and see if they are legit. Most of the illegitimate ones do not send in 990 returns, because they do not want the public to look at their records. It is a loophole they use in order to hide how much money they are making from the public, while professing to be men of faith. They are nothing more then glorified scam artists preying on people who believe in god. It is disgusting and vile, what these people do, and I feel horribly for their congregation.

Wow. A religious thread and I actually agree with Chom, for the most part. I've never heard of the guy. I doubt most Christians have. His family is the loser in all of this. He'll get what he deserves. The family will never recover.

[redskingluvr]

Wow. A religious thread and I actually agree with Chom, for the most part. I've never heard of the guy. I doubt most Christians have. His family is the loser in all of this. He'll get what he deserves. The family will never recover.

I agree, with that. His family is the biggest victims.

What amazes me is one of his relatives is a staff leader at the church still trying to hold the church together, despite the obvious corruption of spirit and heart leading it, for their own presonal financial and ministerial gain. Can you say, "Here we go again!" Same devil, different dress. Most likely those who leave will belikened to unfaithful folks, and those who stay the 'faithful who get the rewards for enduring." Instead of stepping back and recoginizing that the whole thing is not fiathful to God at the heart level.

In terms of the charismatic remark, I have seen corrupt charismatics, but large denominations, big name evangelists who are not healing or gift oriented, have proven to me to have the same problems and even worse time and time again.

I hate to admit it, but my own brother in law and his wife are in that boat. They too bemoan the 'charismatics', the 'chase the anointing crowd' whie emphasizing character and the word. All the while stuffing their own pockets with 'mission money', and traveling and going on compulsive shopping trips where thousands are spent in an hour on purposeless junk.

If I told oyu all the corrupt stories I know of first hand in that area, we would be here reading all day. The list is long and depressing to look at.

Christians need to give to God's work, they also need to ask God for discernment and guidance as to who to give their money to. All too often one group presents themselves as trustworthy, and everyone else gets left out. So on mark to look for is those who truly share with others, and sow significantly to others in the missions if they have large budgets. My wife and I have folks come to us all the time wanting us to help their thing.

The first thing I do is look to see what they are sowing and whom it benefits. The big guys, the conference speaker gang, the big names, or the small missionary, struggling and working his fingers off? One perpetuates and causes cruel injustice and suffering, the other cures it.

[redskingluvr]

There are alot of scams to beware of. Here are a few of the more common ones.

Media presentations that cost many thousands to produce. Depicting great needs and heralding themselves as meeting those needs via donations. Most of the time the government and corporations will meet those needs, and get distributed by unpaid volunteers. The only real expense is shipping costs, media porduction costs(that get listed on the 990 as supporting individuals who they pay extravagant amounts to to produce the ads) and travel expenses. Sometimes folks are depicted on TV as being missionaries who are school teachers full time etc. Very few of those actually exist. But the impression is hundreds to thousands are doing it.

Massive amounts of money are collected, the famous singer or org collecting the money gets a healthy happy cut, a middle man gets a nice fat cut, then the rest goes to the actual org, and then a bit trickles to the guy doing the work, and a bit of that trickles tot he actual work. Look at their homes. Find out how they paid for them, and how much.

Another scam is the book and DVD or cd sales. Costs $1-3 to make one, it gets 'given' for $20 or $25. It's a business masked as a ministry. I have no problem with it, if it is presented as what it is.

Hate to dispapoint chom, but 990s mean absolutely nothing, and ministry not having one means nothing. Here is why. It costs 20-30 grand to get set up to file like that. Most just do a dba. easier and cheaper, more money goes directly to the work. Anyone can write any figures on a 990 form. They can doctor it all to look great, maybe 90% of the budget gets spent on traveling to get more money, and media productions to accomplish that, and it gets listed as 'helping individuals' and the amount put on 'fundraising costs' looks miniscule on the 990. Most real missionaires know that, are not interested in playing with people's heads, and avoid the whole issue. The trustworthy ones will give you their ledger if you ask, so you can see what they do.

The best thing to do is not look for completed works, with big pics, but for uncompleted works that need help. Ask for the records of the spending to be made available to you in return for your support. Then watch the work progress. Ask for pics, and see what happens with your eyes. Find out the vision and make sure you agree with it.

The best way to make sure the money is not siphoned off for folks to live like the rich off of, is to watch the work you support first hand. Ask for annual or regular records on where the money went. If folks balk then it's time to ask why. A real missionary will joyfully walk you right to what he is building and show you, knowing it will only encourage support and prayer for him.

Things to watch out for- buildings that appear to be being built by donations, but locals are doing it all and donating for free, and the money really is used up in travels, nice living, and video productions to impress you. Be smart and buy materials and have them delivered, a real missionary won't be upset. Once you establish that person or group is trustworthy, then send them moderate amounts of cash to live on. Or do even better and send them airline tickets so they can visit relatives, take breaks, vehicles maybe a few folks get together to buy etc.

I personally would rather have a trip to visit my family paid for than cash in my hand to waste.

[China]

Ted Haggard Had a Sex Toy Molded After Himself, Used It

In a second set of clips from Michelangelo Signorile's interview with New Life Church volunteer Grant Haas, who recently came forward with new sex and meth claims about Ted Haggard, Haas describes 'Ted Two', a dildo Ted and Gayle Haggard had molded after Haggard's manhood which Gayle used on her husband and herself. Haas also discusses how Haggard came to be his "counselor" over his struggles with homosexuality.

Click on the link for video of the interview

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Ted Haggard Had a Sex Toy Molded After Himself, Used It

Haas describes 'Ted Two', a dildo Ted and Gayle Haggard had molded after Haggard's manhood which Gayle used on her husband

So Haggard literally ****ed himself? Interesting.

[Chachie]

Ted Haggard Had a Sex Toy Molded After Himself, Used It

In a second set of clips from Michelangelo Signorile's interview with New Life Church volunteer Grant Haas, who recently came forward with new sex and meth claims about Ted Haggard, Haas describes 'Ted Two', a dildo Ted and Gayle Haggard had molded after Haggard's manhood which Gayle used on her husband and herself. Haas also discusses how Haggard came to be his "counselor" over his struggles with homosexuality.

Click on the link for video of the interview

Has anyone seen the HBO documentary show about Ted's life in exile? I watched it last friday night. I was strangely feeling sorry for him and his family despite the fact that I'd laughed along with everyone else when he was exposed.

[Koolblue13]

Come on now, who doesn't do things like that. It's totally normal.

J/K!!!!

[mjah]

This clip from "Jesus Camp" takes on a whole new meaning now:

I'm just amazed at what people can convince themselves not to see. I became aware of Haggard from the movie "Jesus Camp" back in 2006, and did some independent poking around to see whether his portrayal in the film was reasonable. I came away thinking, "This guy has some major personal problems" and even predicted that he was going to be suddenly outed as gay (which is only a personal "problem" given his profession and supposed views).

It was plainly obvious to me that the guy had a lot to hide, well before controversy hit him. It really leads me to wonder: Why can't people see these things? Why would they follow a guy whose general demeanor sets off so many red flags?

Later, after being "cured" of his gayness... I mean, come on. The dissonance was deafening. Now this latest story is basically a non-event -- as long as you're willing to see Haggard for who he really is.

So why can't so many people see that much? Willful denial? I don't think it's so simple, and I'm also not willing to believe that I'm just some super-awesome judge of the people lurking behind their public masks.

I can't be the only one whose Liar Detector went up to 11 when he started learning about Ted Haggard. Thoughts?

[Corcaigh]

Haggard has a toy?

Obama too ...

http://headostate.com/

"I've had one stuck in me since '82"

[HSW]

Has anyone seen the HBO documentary show about Ted's life in exile? I watched it last friday night. I was strangely feeling sorry for him and his family despite the fact that I'd laughed along with everyone else when he was exposed.

Feel sorry for him????? WHY??? If anything he is even more full

of shiatt then he ever was. Him and the film directer were trying

to get sympathy but it was laughable. All that time the church

and the members were still paying for his mansion in Colorado...

Saying he could not find a job for a year...while he was

golfing in every clip:mad::mad:...I bet when he was preaching

if someone told him that he would have said that McDonalds was

hiring.:mad::mad::mad:

[sly]

At what point do you start to question the motives of the leaders and say they are not what we thought they were? Remember Jim Bakker? Jerry Falwell? Come on now, they are all frauds, and unfortunately too many people believe they are doing "god's work" when in reality, all they are doing is fattening their wallet and preying on people's poor judgment.

I understand what you're saying, but don't put Jerry Falwell into the same group as those other evangelists. While Falwell did have a problem with putting his foot in his mouth sometimes, he shouldn't be lumped into the same group as Bakker or Haggard. I grew up in Lynchburg, Virginia... about 10 or 15 minutes from Falwell's house, church, and university (Liberty University) and have a sister that currently goes to his church (Jonathan Falwell - Jerry's son - is the current pastor). I even met the man on a couple occasions and dated a girl whose father filmed his weekly television show. While I disagree with Jerry Falwell's strong, Baptist religious views, I can definitely respect him for sticking to his values and actually living the life he preached about.

[Chachie]

Feel sorry for him????? WHY??? If anything he is even more full

of shiatt then he ever was. Him and the film directer were trying

to get sympathy but it was laughable. All that time the church

and the members were still paying for his mansion in Colorado...

Saying he could not find a job for a year...while he was

golfing in every clip:mad::mad:...I bet when he was preaching

if someone told him that he would have said that McDonalds was

hiring.:mad::mad::mad:

All valid points. I'm a pushover.

However- short of things like rape or murder, everyone deserves a second chance in life. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money I don't have that the members of his church who are keeping him in "exile" have some pretty big skeletons in their own closets.