Zguy28 Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Ok. We have threads on "Does God exist???" and everything else under the sun. They always degenerate into 10 different discussions on everything from "why are Christians so arrogant?" to "what makes Jesus so different than Buddha or the Prophet Mohammed?" Well I am stating this once more for everyone who wants to read it. Its the Christian position as best I can state it. I'm not debating theological views or the existence of evil etc. Nor will I debate the Bible's authenticity, there are other threads for that stuff. This is the Gospel message.This is to clear the waters as to what most Christians believe, although sometimes we can't even agree amongst ourselves. I will try to answer questions directly related to it. All I ask is if you comment, please read the post in its entirety. Yours, Z ---------------------------------- Do you consider yourself to be a good person? Most people do. However, most of us differ as to the definition of "good." The Bible says that God is good, and the Ten Commandments are His standard of goodness. So, we will look at God's Law . . . With a tender conscience, ask yourself if you have obeyed the following: 1. You shall have no other gods before Me. (Have you always loved God above all else?) 2. You shall not make yourself an idol. (Have you made a god in your mind that you're more comfortable with, a god to suit yourself?) 3. You shall not take God's name in vain. (Have you ever used God's holy Name as a cuss word?) 4. Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. 5. Honor your father and mother. 6. You shall not murder. (God considers hatred to be as murder). 7. You shall not commit adultery. ("Whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart" Matthew 5:27-28; this also includes sex before marriage). 8. You shall not steal. (Have you ever stolen anything? The value of the item is irrelevant). 9. You shall not lie. (Have you lied even once? Including answering these questions). 10. You shall not covet. (Have you ever jealously desired what belongs to others?) The Bible says that God will punish all murderers, rapists, thieves, liars, adulterers, etc. He will even judge our words and thoughts. On Judgment Day, will you be found to be guilty or innocent of breaking His commandments? Perhaps you think that God is good, and will therefore overlook your sins. But it is His goodness that will make sure that murderers, rapists, thieves, liars, etc. receive justice. He would be a corrupt Judge if He turned a blind eye to injustice. Have you kept the Commandments? The Bible says that the Law is perfect. It commands you to be perfect (Matthew 5:48). Are you perfect (in thought, word, and deed)? Will you make it to Heaven? You may say that you are still good, but God says you're not (see Psalm 14:2-3). So one of you is lying, and the Scriptures tell us that it is impossible for God to lie. Remember that all liars will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). God's Law demands justice, and the penalty for sinning against Him is death and Hell. Listen carefully if you want to live. God Himself made a way where His justice and His goodness could meet. We broke the Law, but He became a man to pay the fine. Jesus suffered and died on the cross to satisfy the Law. God can forgive us and grant us the gift of everlasting life! But you may still think that you can (from now on) keep the Ten Commandments. But isn't it true that the best of us have lied, stolen, lusted, hated, failed to love God above all else, and failed to love our neighbor as ourselves? How can we then, live a "good" life if we have already sinned against God? At best we are reformed liars and thieves . . . but still Lawbreakers. Think of it this way - would you sell one of your eyes for a million dollars? Would you sell both for $50 million? I'm sure you wouldn't. Your eyes are priceless, yet they are merely the windows of your soul. What then must your life (soul) be worth? With these thoughts in mind, what would be a fair price to pay for everlasting life? It is utterly without price. Yet, if we trust in our own goodness to enter Heaven, we are saying to God, "I should enter Heaven because I have done good - I have earned my way in." Imagine if you wanted to give me a brand new (very expensive) car, but I said, "I can't take it! I feel embarrassed receiving such a gift . . . here's 10 cents for it." I'm sure you would be very insulted by such a pathetic offer of payment. Besides, if I pay for it, it is no longer a gift, it's a purchase . . . it's mine by right. When we talk of entering Heaven by being good, by trying to keep the Ten Commandments etc., we are tossing God 10 cents of "self-righteousness," which is a terrible insult to Him, in the light of His sacrifice. The only thing we can do is humble ourselves, repent of our sins, and receive the gift by trusting Jesus Christ alone. Almighty God demonstrated how much He loves you when Jesus suffered for you on the cross. If you want to trust in your own goodness, then you are saying His agonizing death on the cross was in vain. The Bible says, "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." You cannot earn a gift. When Jesus said to "believe" on Him, He was saying we should have faith in Him, in the same way you would trust a parachute to save you when you jump from a plane. You don't merely believe in the parachute - you put it on. Please don't "jump" without Jesus. If you die in your sins there is no second chance. God will give you justice, and you will end up in Hell forever. Any troubles you have at present are dwarfed by the trouble you are in with your Creator. His wrath abides upon you (John 3:36). God doesn't want you to go to Hell. Neither do you want to go there, so confess your sins to God right now, put your trust in Jesus to save you, and you will pass from death to life. Then read the Bible daily and obey what you read. (See John 14:21). Your obedience to God is the proof of your love. Have faith in God, He will never fail you. Pray something like this: "Dear God, today I turn away from all of my sins (name them). This day I put my trust in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. He is the only way for me to be saved. He is 'The way, the truth, and the life.'" Please forgive me, change my heart, and grant me Your gift of everlasting life. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Its the Christian position as best I can state it That seems like a well-done summary effort at explaining the basics for those who have never heard them. Nicely done Z. Is this actually "you stating it" or did this capsulization come from someone else? It's cool either way, but if you came up with it like it sounds here, hats off for the effort, amigo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Nevermind :point2sky :dallasuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 That seems like a well-done summary effort at explaining the basics for those who have never heard them. Nicely done Z. Is this actually "you stating it" or did this capsulization come from someone else? It's cool either way, but if you came up with it like it sounds here, hats off for the effort, amigo.I can't take credit for it. It was written by a man named Ray Comfort. But its basically the dialogue I use when witnessing/preaching to people on the street or anywhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Do you consider yourself to be a good person? Most people do. However, most of us differ as to the definition of "good." The Bible says that God is good, and the Ten Commandments are His standard of goodness. So, we will look at God's Law . . . With a tender conscience, ask yourself if you have obeyed the following: 1. You shall have no other gods before Me. (Have you always loved God above all else?) Nope. My wife takes that honor. 2. You shall not make yourself an idol. (Have you made a god in your mind that you're more comfortable with, a god to suit yourself?) Yep. 3. You shall not take God's name in vain. (Have you ever used God's holy Name as a cuss word?) All the time. 4. Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. How could you not - its when the Redskins play. 5. Honor your father and mother. Always. 6. You shall not murdr. (God considers hatred to be as murdr). Never, never, never. I don't even hate ****** - and that guy's an ******. 7. You shall not commit adultery. ("Whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart" Matthew 5:27-28; this also includes sex before marriage). Despite what Art thinks - i'd rather commit murdr. Though i do look, i just don't consider that adultery. 8. You shall not steal. (Have you ever stolen anything? The value of the item is irrelevant). When I was young and stupid... 9. You shall not lie. (Have you lied even once? Including answering these questions). You show me someone who claims to have never lied, and i'll show you a liar. 10. You shall not covet. (Have you ever jealously desired what belongs to others?) I REALLY want a 52-Inch flat screen, HD TV. The Bible says that God will punish all murdrers, rapists, thieves, liars, adulterers, etc. He will even judge our words and thoughts. On Judgment Day, will you be found to be guilty or innocent of breaking His commandments? If a God like the one in my heart exists, i'm all-good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ_Skins Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I guess that made you feel better about yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueTalon Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I've got a problem with "read the Bible daily and obey what you read" following confessing sins to God and putting trust in Jesus. While it is a very good idea, it is not a Biblical requirement for salvation -- but you wouldn't know it to read that presentation. Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures... For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith... not by works, so that no one can boast. Jesus declared himself to be the God worshiped by the fathers of the Jews of his time, My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me... Before Abraham Was, I AM and demonstrated his power and authority by walking out of the grave after his dead body had been deposited in it. So what is necessary is to believe in the correct Jesus (not an angel, good man, teacher, but the Creator-God in human form who died and resurrected), and that's it. The thief on the cross next to Jesus never had a chance to do anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 I've got a problem with "read the Bible daily and obey what you read" following confessing sins to God and putting trust in Jesus. While it is a very good idea, it is not a Biblical requirement for salvation -- but you wouldn't know it to read that presentation.Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures... For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith... not by works, so that no one can boast. Jesus declared himself to be the God worshiped by the fathers of the Jews of his time, My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me... Before Abraham Was, I AM and demonstrated his power and authority by walking out of the grave after his dead body had been deposited in it. So what is necessary is to believe in the correct Jesus (not an angel, good man, teacher, but the Creator-God in human form who died and resurrected), and that's it. The thief on the cross next to Jesus never had a chance to do anything else. Its impossible to please everyone. Maybe I should've put the word "then" in italics? Neither do you want to go there, so confess your sins to God right now, put your trust in Jesus to save you, and you will pass from death to life. Then read the Bible daily and obey what you read. (See John 14:21). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueTalon Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Should have started a new paragraph... and made it clear(er) that it is not an integral part of the gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 Should have started a new paragraph... and made it clear(er) that it is not an integral part of the gospel. Sorry, I thought it was pretty clear in the preceding paragraph.:whoknows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Judges Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Isn't Ray Comfort the guy who thought the existence of bananas proves evolution to be false? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I think some people are way too cut and dry about the bible - but then again I am not a person that looks at it in a literal sense. The bible has always inspired a greater message while reading it. More then the ink on paper and I've always thought that what someone gets from the bible has a lot to do with their heart. Some people believe that works are irrelevent - that grace and faith are all you need. Yet when Jesus seperates people he cites their works as the reason they go to heaven or hell. He doesn't mention their faith, he mentions their actions towards the weaker specifically. I can't just ignore that because somewhere else in the bible it points to faith being the only way in (the theif on the cross). Thus I come away with the message that we aren't all judged the same - the thief had no chance to do better because he was near the end. His true change of heart and belief was known to Christ as well as his situation. Also it seems those of us able to do more are expected to do more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I look at the bible as a history book written as an alogory about the rise of man. I consider adam and eve to represent man becoming a society in the Middle East (Iraq). Read Isaac Assimov's A History of the Bible, it is a GREAT book, and it explains early human history in this manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I guess that made you feel better about yourself? If you're talking to Rincewind, I think you need to go get a sense of humor. They're on sale at Kmart. That's where I got mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I look at the bible as a history book written as an alogory about the rise of man. I consider adam and eve to represent man becoming a society in the Middle East (Iraq). Read Isaac Assimov's A History of the Bible, it is a GREAT book, and it explains early human history in this manner. I"ve read that book several times and it is an excellent reference source for the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUNSTONE Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I guess that made you feel better about yourself? I guess that made you feel better about yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I think some people are way too cut and dry about the bible - but then again I am not a person that looks at it in a literal sense. The bible has always inspired a greater message while reading it. More then the ink on paper and I've always thought that what someone gets from the bible has a lot to do with their heart. Some people believe that works are irrelevent - that grace and faith are all you need. Yet when Jesus seperates people he cites their works as the reason they go to heaven or hell. He doesn't mention their faith, he mentions their actions towards the weaker specifically. I can't just ignore that because somewhere else in the bible it points to faith being the only way in (the theif on the cross). Thus I come away with the message that we aren't all judged the same - the thief had no chance to do better because he was near the end. His true change of heart and belief was known to Christ as well as his situation. Also it seems those of us able to do more are expected to do more. Paul is the main figure that switches the emphasis to "faith". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbiggs Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 It always saddened me to hear as a child sitting in Church that most of the Earths population will go to Hell because they haven't been saved...even as a child I thought that was totally unfair and didn't make sense. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUNSTONE Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I look at the bible as a history book written as an alogory about the rise of man. I consider adam and eve to represent man becoming a society in the Middle East (Iraq). Read Isaac Assimov's A History of the Bible, it is a GREAT book, and it explains early human history in this manner. That sounds something like my take on the bible many years ago. "The bible was created for 2 reasons. 1. To explain the unexplainable. Where we came from, where we're going, etc." 2. To instill fear into all man kind to try and get him not to steal, kill, etc." I said that statement moments before I fell down full of the Holy Spirit. When I got up, I didn't say that any more, I said..... "HOLD UP! WAIT A MINUTE! MY WORLD HAS JUST BEEN FLIPPED UPSIDE DOWN!" (technically it was right side up) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 I think some people are way too cut and dry about the bible - but then again I am not a person that looks at it in a literal sense. The bible has always inspired a greater message while reading it. More then the ink on paper and I've always thought that what someone gets from the bible has a lot to do with their heart. Some people believe that works are irrelevent - that grace and faith are all you need. Yet when Jesus seperates people he cites their works as the reason they go to heaven or hell. He doesn't mention their faith, he mentions their actions towards the weaker specifically. I can't just ignore that because somewhere else in the bible it points to faith being the only way in (the theif on the cross). Thus I come away with the message that we aren't all judged the same - the thief had no chance to do better because he was near the end. His true change of heart and belief was known to Christ as well as his situation. Also it seems those of us able to do more are expected to do more. I look at the bible as a history book written as an alogory about the rise of man. I consider adam and eve to represent man becoming a society in the Middle East (Iraq). Read Isaac Assimov's A History of the Bible, it is a GREAT book, and it explains early human history in this manner. I"ve read that book several times and it is an excellent reference source for the bible. Paul is the main figure that switches the emphasis to "faith". It always saddened me to hear as a child sitting in Church that most of the Earths population will go to Hell because they haven't been saved...even as a child I thought that was totally unfair and didn't make sense. Dan And who says we can't have a civil discussion about religion? Good job guys. :applause: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 How do you know that an apple tree is an apple tree? And if an apple tree did not produce fruit... is that apple tree worth anything? Matthew 3:9-11 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Is salvation by faith? sure it is by faith but lets examine this: I find that everyone likes to pull this scripture out to justify there lifestlye. But is the correct thing to do? Ephesians 2:7-9 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. This scripture is telling us that Jesus is the only one that can save you... not yourself.. You did nothing to be saved... You can not not even love God without Him first loving you. But once that love has been put into your heart... there will be a heart change. This verse is not telling us that once you become a Christian continue to live how you want. The book James clearly explains this: James 2:13-18 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Where it says "Can faith save him?" the actual greek translation is "Can that kind of faith save him?" The word faith in the bible is a verb in most cases. It has Action. If you have faith in Jesus you will do what He commands. What we call "faith" with our "Western Christianty" is nothing more than a "do not go to jail" ticket, a saftey net of sorts... It comes with the attitude. I'll say a prayer to Jesus, but I'm not changing my lifestyle. Did you know that the bible says demons have faith in Jesus? Does that mean they are saved? James 2:18-20 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? As in another thread I added... Almost everwhere it says "believe" in the new testament... the greek translation is (believe & obey), you can not have one without the other. A Christian that does not produce the works after "Salvation" is probably not a Christian... I didn't say it.... GOD did. Why are "Christians" called Hyprocrites... because we have people using the name "Chrisitan", but do not live the lifestyle to match it.... :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Great post prophet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Just as certain Christians like Catholics can become too focused on works, and forget that only faith saves, other Christians focus too much on faith, and forget that a true saving faith naturally begets works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NattyLight Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Jesus is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 This is very arrogant of you. I will retort: pray as you will. If there is a purity and conviction in your heart that is shared amongst your loved ones, the words "Jesus Christ" and "God" never have to enter you vernacular for your spirit to shine everlasting. Period. My reaction: While the Bible is filled with many valuable lessons and ideals in life that transcend time, it was written by man. Sure, some were Men with hallicinations and a uncanny connection with the world, but most were just real rich, or funded by Kings. No "law" is perfect, as man is fallable. This, in my opinion, is outlined very well in Genesis as Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge, or "all knowingness." God warned them not to eat, because a human cannot grasp to scope of all knowingness; inherently, humans are constantly trying to discover how "ought" to live. Since this understanding is perceived as unattainable, one puts their faith into God and Jesus Christ as to not have to take on the burden of discovering their own set of standards because the task is too cumbersome. Is this "bad" or "weak"? No. Not even a little. It merely allows them to focus on less complex, day-to-day matters with out questioning the amorphous "why's" and "how's". In order to evolve, one must take the teachings of Jesus Christ (Ghandi, Martin Luther King, that little Indian dude under a tree) as guidance, not an absolute, and start writing their own "bible" for his community. This will create your journey to heaven on earth through a life of rightgeousness. Only this will truely illuminate you in God's eyes. excuse me if I'm wrong but the title of the thread is "The Christian Message" so it would be how arrogant of you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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