The Christian Message - Once for all

[NattyLight]

excuse me if I'm wrong but the title of the thread is

"The Christian Message"

so it would be how arrogant of you

Eeek!!

My mistake. :doh:

Damn!! And I had a nice example too...I'll delete and move to the other thread.

Apologies.

[prophet]

Eeek!!

My mistake. :doh:

Damn!! And I had a nice example too...I'll delete and move to the other thread.

Apologies.

No Problemo!

Thanks for fixing it!

[BlueTalon]

Paul is the main figure that switches the emphasis to "faith".

That's incorrect, the emphasis began with Jesus.

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

[techboy]

Eeek!!

My mistake. :doh:

Damn!! And I had a nice example too...I'll delete and move to the other thread.

Apologies.

Actually, I think it really belonged here, since it was a reaction to Zguy28's thoughts, and doesn't really discuss whether or not one can prove the existence of God (not that that thread has been on topic lately anyway).

[Zguy28]

That's incorrect, the emphasis began with Jesus.

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Yes, but what code was referring to was that Pauline theology is where the main focus of "saved by faith through grace" came from.

[Destino]

That's incorrect, the emphasis began with Jesus.

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Right but what did "the one he has sent" tell us?

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

[Zguy28]

Again I say, don't get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. The Lord's servants must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone. They must be able to teach effectively and be patient with difficult people.

2 Timothy 2:23-24

[Jumbo]

Just as certain Christians like Catholics can become too focused on works, and forget that only faith saves, other Christians focus too much on faith, and forget that a true saving faith naturally begets works.

"Too focused on works." Perhaps you can further define that enlightenment in a specific manner as to what is currently taught and done in Catholicism (emphasis on "too focused"). I was raised Catholic, but no longer am a Catholic. But I’ve seen you and others, more than once, lump them together with descriptions that do not really match my experience, so I am a little confused.

The church, priests, and members I knew, and my Jesuit priest uncle, certainly valued faith, and in fact, they did not play works up as much as faith. Maybe I was in a rouge parish :laugh: .

Were you Catholic? Can you explain this better for me as where Catholics put works above faith so clearly ad definitively that you're comfortable with making that comment? I realize the general tenor of the board here is that the "catholics really got it wrong" and maybe rank just barely above Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists and Muslims in the standings, but I just remember faith being so central to the teachings of catchechism and mass, and works mainly being spreading the gospel and helping the poor and weak among us because Jesus seemed to think that was a big deal. So I am ignorant of where the too much focused on works part for proper salvation comes into the picture.

[chomerics]

That sounds something like my take on the bible many years ago.

"The bible was created for 2 reasons.

1. To explain the unexplainable. Where we came from, where we're going, etc."

2. To instill fear into all man kind to try and get him not to steal, kill, etc."

I said that statement moments before I fell down full of the Holy Spirit. When I got up, I didn't say that any more, I said.....

"HOLD UP! WAIT A MINUTE! MY WORLD HAS JUST BEEN FLIPPED UPSIDE DOWN!"

(technically it was right side up)

:laugh:

I am glad that many people find happiness in their religion, and I do think the vast majority of people are in it for good reasons. I can not picture myself as being religious, as I have a brain that is too geared towards science, and the scientific method. That doesn't mean I think religion is inherently bad (although a strong argument can be made that extreme elements of any religion are bad). I just deem it not for me. If I was EVER to find a religion, it would be along the Budhist teachings and self awareness/enlightenment. I like the nature of it without the supreme being undertones.

Getting back on topic, what you used to believe in is pretty much how I look at the bible now. I do not believe in the new testament as in Jesus was a diety, but instead he was just a normal man. The books were written decades after his death, and it was common back then for great people to be written as mythological dieties after they died. Look at people like Achilles, Helen of Troy and others as examples. They were diefied after they died, and I think this is the case with Jesus.

BTW, this is bothersome to me, and I don't know if it is to anyone else, but what if Jesus was crazy? What if he was just like a David Koresch figure who thought he was the son of god, and a bunch of people believed him? They wrote about him after his death from stories passed down, and the NT was written about a crazy man. HAs this thought passed into anyone else's head at all? just curious.

[AJ_Skins]

The best way I've heard it put is that you are not saved BY good works, you are saved FOR good works.

John 3:16

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

John 6:29

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Romans 11:5-6

So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 7:4

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Galatians 5:22-26

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

1 Corinthians 13

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Now this is probably what some of you are looking for:

James 2:14-26

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

All of these have to be taken together, in context, and the picture that comes up is precisely what was implied by Jesus:

Matthew 22-35-40

One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Love the Lord (faith) is the first and greatest. The second is to love your neighbor, which is where works are evidenced. You can do all the good works you want, and they will not save you if you do not believe. In order to do anything good, it must be done through the Spirit, which is only received through faith in Jesus Christ.

[SUNSTONE]

:laugh:

I am glad that many people find happiness in their religion, and I do think the vast majority of people are in it for good reasons. I can not picture myself as being religious, as I have a brain that is too geared towards science, and the scientific method. That doesn't mean I think religion is inherently bad (although a strong argument can be made that extreme elements of any religion are bad). I just deem it not for me. If I was EVER to find a religion, it would be along the Budhist teachings and self awareness/enlightenment. I like the nature of it without the supreme being undertones.

Getting back on topic, what you used to believe in is pretty much how I look at the bible now. I do not believe in the new testament as in Jesus was a diety, but instead he was just a normal man. The books were written decades after his death, and it was common back then for great people to be written as mythological dieties after they died. Look at people like Achilles, Helen of Troy and others as examples. They were diefied after they died, and I think this is the case with Jesus.

BTW, this is bothersome to me, and I don't know if it is to anyone else, but what if Jesus was crazy? What if he was just like a David Koresch figure who thought he was the son of god, and a bunch of people believed him? They wrote about him after his death from stories passed down, and the NT was written about a crazy man. HAs this thought passed into anyone else's head at all? just curious.

My mind is geared more towards science as well.

But I don't limit myself to just my senses.

I'm not your every day Christian/other religion faith follower.

I have had 100's if not 1000's of experiences with God.

Including healings, what you would call miracles.

So from my experiences, I have come to the scientific conclusion that there is a God.

I couldn't put a formula to how it works, I just know it works.

People don't realize how much wisdom is in that book.

[LiveStrongSkins]

I'm a christian with strong faith, however there are certain things I question. I do believe in heaven and do believe in God, but I guess being a young guy, I question certain things. For one, I dont believe someone should have to be scared silly to be a christian. If a lost soul who has had a checkered past read that detailed description of the christian message, they would be scared silly to go to church. Also, this "judgement" day thing confuses me. What about the peoples funerals I have been to where the comfort was knowing they were in a better place?... does this mean they havent gotten there yet or what? I have a hard time believing that God would throw someone in a lake of fire unless they were a complete serial killer or someone like Hitler. What about the people who have done great things in their life but were never exposed to church? Do they get thrown in the lake of fire? Or how about the Jewish faith? They dont believe Christ is the messiah. The doctor who saved my life was Jewish.. does he get thrown in the lake of fire? I would have a hard time seeing that. I have cussed before, and have told lies. Does telling my boss I'm late because of a made up reason get me thrown in the lake? I would like to think that leading a life in which I generally do my best to be the best person possible would be enough to get me into heaven.

[skinsandgibbsfan]

I'm a christian with strong faith, however there are certain things I question. I do believe in heaven and do believe in God, but I guess being a young guy, I question certain things. For one, I dont believe someone should have to be scared silly to be a christian. If a lost soul who has had a checkered past read that detailed description of the christian message, they would be scared silly to go to church. Also, this "judgement" day thing confuses me. What about the peoples funerals I have been to where the comfort was knowing they were in a better place?... does this mean they havent gotten there yet or what? I have a hard time believing that God would throw someone in a lake of fire unless they were a complete serial killer or someone like Hitler. What about the people who have done great things in their life but were never exposed to church? Do they get thrown in the lake of fire? Or how about the Jewish faith? They dont believe Christ is even born yet. The doctor who saved my life was Jewish.. does he get thrown in the lake of fire? I would have a hard time seeing that. I have cussed before, and have told lies. Does telling my boss I'm late because of a made up reason get me thrown in the lake? I would like to think that leading a life in which I generally do my best to be the best person possible would be enough to get me into heaven.

I'm Jewish and in the Jewish faith we don't believe Jesus was/is the Messiah or the son of God. We also don't think there is a Hell. Hell is just a metaphor to us.

[dmgephart]

I like the fact that there is discussion on this and it is not a bunch of griping and complaining. Most message boards i go to everyone just gripes. Thanks guys.

Anyway, my thought on this is as follows.

Yes it states that to believe is enough. Just like the thief on the right.

But to be really filled, to really have a heart for God I think we need to do his will, other wise it is just an empty faith.

I love the words to the song "My Desire" by Jeremy Camp...

"My Desire"

You want to be real

You want to be empty inside

You want to be someone laying down your pride

You want to be someone someday

Then lay it all down before the King

You want to be whole

You want to have purpose inside

You want to have virtue and purify your mind

You want to be set free today then lay it all down before the King

This is my desire

This is my return

This is my desire to be used by you

You want to be real

You want to be emptied inside

And I know my heart is to feel you near

And I know my life

It's to do your will

It's to do your will

This is my desire

This is my return

This is my desire to be used by you

All my life I have seen where you've taken me

Beyond all I have hoped and there's more left unseen

There's not much I can do to repay all you've done so I give my hands to use

This is my desire

This is my return

This is my desire to be used by you

I think once we become "christians" it shoud be our desire to be used by God.

like it says, faith without works is dead.

Just my thoughts....take them or leave 'em!

Oh, and I hate the word "religion", I don't claim to be a Baptist, or Catholic, or Protestant, or whatever else there is. God is not the God of Baptists, or of Catholics. He is the God of us all, he came for us all. Not just the believers but the unbelievers as well.

-Don

[SUNSTONE]

I'm a christian with strong faith, however there are certain things I question. I do believe in heaven and do believe in God, but I guess being a young guy, I question certain things. For one, I dont believe someone should have to be scared silly to be a christian. If a lost soul who has had a checkered past read that detailed description of the christian message, they would be scared silly to go to church. Also, this "judgement" day thing confuses me. What about the peoples funerals I have been to where the comfort was knowing they were in a better place?... does this mean they havent gotten there yet or what? I have a hard time believing that God would throw someone in a lake of fire unless they were a complete serial killer or someone like Hitler. What about the people who have done great things in their life but were never exposed to church? Do they get thrown in the lake of fire? Or how about the Jewish faith? They dont believe Christ is even born yet. The doctor who saved my life was Jewish.. does he get thrown in the lake of fire? I would have a hard time seeing that. I have cussed before, and have told lies. Does telling my boss I'm late because of a made up reason get me thrown in the lake? I would like to think that leading a life in which I generally do my best to be the best person possible would be enough to get me into heaven.

You have to remember that God loves us so much that He gave His crucified His only begotten Son.

King David commited adultry and murder, but he is still considered the greatest king in the OT.

Do you think that God is going to throw you in hell for telling your boss a lie?

Does that make sense?

You have to take the bible as a whole.

Remember when God said He would take Moses and start a new convienant with him and his family only, because the rest were a bunch of filthy sinners?

What did Moses say?

And what did God do?

That's what Jesus does for us today.

Besides are faults, He still loves us and came down on earth to show us the way, and to die for our sins.

[AJ_Skins]

I'm a christian with strong faith, however there are certain things I question. I do believe in heaven and do believe in God, but I guess being a young guy, I question certain things. For one, I dont believe someone should have to be scared silly to be a christian. If a lost soul who has had a checkered past read that detailed description of the christian message, they would be scared silly to go to church. Also, this "judgement" day thing confuses me. What about the peoples funerals I have been to where the comfort was knowing they were in a better place?... does this mean they havent gotten there yet or what? I have a hard time believing that God would throw someone in a lake of fire unless they were a complete serial killer or someone like Hitler. What about the people who have done great things in their life but were never exposed to church? Do they get thrown in the lake of fire? Or how about the Jewish faith? They dont believe Christ is even born yet. The doctor who saved my life was Jewish.. does he get thrown in the lake of fire? I would have a hard time seeing that. I have cussed before, and have told lies. Does telling my boss I'm late because of a made up reason get me thrown in the lake? I would like to think that leading a life in which I generally do my best to be the best person possible would be enough to get me into heaven.

The only way to fully answer those questions is to study the Bible for yourself. For what it's worth, I can try to give my (inadequate) summary of what the whole story of the Bible encapsulates, from a Christian point of view:

God created the heavens and the earth. He created every living thing, including man, which He made in his own image. Everything was perfect.

Satan, who was one of his angels, rebelled against God, and took a third of the angels with him. These fallen angels then came to Earth and drew man away from God with the promise of "knowledge". As a result, man, and the Earth, became full of wickedness, and God cursed them both.

Initially, seeing how bad things had become, God determined that he would destroy everything that he created...wipe the slate clean...with the exception of one man, Noah, who obeyed God and followed his commands. There was a global cataclysm, and all human civilization at that time was wiped out.

After the flood, God promised that He would never again take that kind of action, and instead, began to pursue another route, which would give man a chance. He chose one man who believed in Him, Abraham, to be the father of a people through whom the Earth would be given its chance. Abraham had a son named Isaac, who had a son named Jacob, through whom was born the nation of Israel.

After years in captivity in Egypt, God raised up Moses to lead the Israelites to freedom, and to establish them in the land promised to Abraham...what is now known as "Palestine". After they had escaped Egypt, God spoke directly to Moses, and gave him a very lengthy code of Law, detailing everything that the people were to do in order to be blessed by God, and a blessing to the world.

Over time, God's chosen people, the Jews, failed again and again to live up to God's commands. They obeyed him and were blessed, and then they were drawn away, and suffered. They repented and returned to keeping the law, and were restored, and then they fell away again. This process was repeated many times.

(This is, obviously, where Christianity diverges from Judaism)

Having seen the inability of man to keep the law, God followed a course to make it even simpler for man to be reconciled to him, and to be saved. He sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to die as a sacrifice for the sins of the world. In the Law there were many sacrifices that had to be made for forgiveness of sin. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, once and for all. Through simply believing in him, all sin is forgiven.

It could not be easier. God has given us a way out, if we will take it. Nevertheless, God must eventually do away with evil. That day will come, and those who believe will be saved.

As for what applies to people who may have hypothetically never heard the gospel, I leave that in God's hands. It is not my place to judge. As for the Jewish people, you are getting into a very complex and thorny subject, which would take a lenghthy thread and very careful discussion. I will not hold myself up as an authority on that subject, as prophecy is probably my weakest area of understanding in the Bible. It might be an interesting thread, but it would also be problematic, as there are undoubtedly people who would say something stupid and ignorant in both directions and send the whole thing into bad territory.

[techboy]

"Too focused on works." Perhaps you can further define that enlightenment in a specific manner as to what is currently taught and done in Catholicism (emphasis on "too focused"). I was raised Catholic, but no longer am a Catholic. But I’ve seen you and others, more than once, lump them together with descriptions that do not really match my experience, so I am a little confused.

Jumbo, unlike many protestants, I don't actually view the Catholic Church as lost. As I have said before, using Dr. Norman Geisler's historical approach to orthodoxy in Christianity, I believe Catholicism to be an orthodox faith which has drifted into significant error. Also unlike some more extreme protestants, I do not believe that the Catholic understanding of salvation is so erroneous as to prevent salvation.

However, offical Catholic doctrine on salvation teaches that initial salvation is a result of faith and works, which is contrary to what the Bible teaches (that salvation is through faith alone, and then a saving faith naturally produces works).

For more information, you can read The Roman Catholic view on justification, which is a pretty good summary of the issues involved, from a protestant perspective. The first part contains the key issue:

Justification is a divine act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his sins. It is a legal action in that God declares the sinner righteous -- as though he has satisfied the Law of God. This justification is based entirely on the sacrifice of Christ by His shed blood: "...having now been justified by His blood..." (Rom. 5:9).1 Justification is a gift of grace (Rom. 3:24; Titus 3:7) that comes through faith (Rom. 3:28; 5:1). Christians receive Jesus (John 1:12) and put their faith-filled trust in what Jesus did on the cross (Isaiah 53:12; 1 Pet. 2:24) and in so doing are justified by God. The Bible states that justification is not by works (Rom. 3:20, 28; 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9) because our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Those who are justified are saved and salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23), something we cannot earn (Eph. 2:1-10). However, Roman Catholic doctrine denies justification by faith alone and says:

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14).

Anathema, according to Catholic theology means excommunication, "the exclusion of a sinner from the society of the faithful." The Greek word anathema is also translated as "accursed" (Rom. 9:3; Gal. 1:8-9, NASB & KJV), "eternally condemned" (Gal. 1:8-9, NIV), and "cursed" (Rom. 9:3, NIV),. We can see that Roman Catholic theology pronounces a curse of excommunication, of being outside the camp of Christ if you believe that you are saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus.

Now, to be fair, I have seen more recent statements from the Catholic Church that lean more towards the faith side of the equation. And I definitely don't think they're so far away from the truth of the issue that they can't be saved. They definitely also believe in salavtion through faith in Jesus, and their Jesus is a Biblical Jesus, unlike, say, the Mormon Jesus.

[techboy]

I'm a christian with strong faith, however there are certain things I question. I do believe in heaven and do believe in God, but I guess being a young guy, I question certain things. For one, I dont believe someone should have to be scared silly to be a christian. If a lost soul who has had a checkered past read that detailed description of the christian message, they would be scared silly to go to church.

I'd think he or she would be scared silly not to. And once one is a Christian, the sacrifice of Jesus imparts His righteousness to us, so that we need not fear, not because of our righteousness, but because of His

Romans 5:1-9

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we [b ]rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we[c] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

Personally, I find that very comforting. I wouldn't want to be judged based on my righteousness.

Also, this "judgement" day thing confuses me. What about the peoples funerals I have been to where the comfort was knowing they were in a better place?... does this mean they havent gotten there yet or what?

From Where do Church Age believers go when they die?

Question:

Where do Church Age believers go when they die?

Answer:

Old Testament saints went to a place called Abraham’s bosom, which apparently refers to a paradise for Old Testament believers at the time of their death (cf. Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4). This was a heavenly place, but evidently not directly in God’s presence because Jesus had not yet died for sin to give access directly into God’s presence. If you recall, right after Christ’s death on the cross, one of the phenomena that occurred was the rending of the veil to show the way into God’s presence had been opened. It is through Christ’s sacrificial death that we are given access to God with the barrier of sin removed (Eph. 2:18; 3:12; Heb. 4:16; 10:19, 35). In anticipation of His death and the immediate access it would give to the presence of God, Jesus promised the thief on the cross that “today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke. 23:43).

Today, during the Church Age, believers go directly into the presence of God in heaven. This is evident in several passages. In Philippians 1:23 Paul wrote, “But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better.” Where is Christ today? He is seated at the right hand of God in heaven (Eph. 1:20). Logically then, to be with Christ after death is to also be in heaven. So likewise, if “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5), death means to be in heaven with the Lord, though without our glorified bodies which wait until the resurrection when soul will be joined together with a glorified, resurrected body.

I have a hard time believing that God would throw someone in a lake of fire unless they were a complete serial killer or someone like Hitler. What about the people who have done great things in their life but were never exposed to church? Do they get thrown in the lake of fire?

I'll just quote myself again.

There are two main issues that are often raised in objection to Christianity:

First, does the good guy who never accepts Christ go to Hell while the bad guy who does go to heaven, and second, what about people who are born in the wrong place or time and never hear?

To the first point, when someone asks, for example, about whether a rapist/murderer who sincerely accepts Jesus 15 seconds before he is executed (I'm embellishing to make it an even more severe contrast) can go to heaven while the charity worker who spent every minute of his waking life helping others, but never became a Christian will not, there is a simple Biblical answer.

Yes.

The problem is that most people focus on good works from a human point of view (or even a Biblical point of view), and ignore how God looks at things.

Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This includes the humanitarian. At some point in his life, he lied, or hated his brother, or cheated on his taxes, or whatever. Probably a lot more than once. And, Jesus taught that if you break one commandment you break all of them. So, in God's eyes, they're both sinners.

Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. This is a spiritual death, or eternity apart from God, or Hell, however you want to call it. The basic concept is that God is perfect, and will not abide the presence of sin. Sin causes permanent seperation from God.

So, from God's perspective, both the rapist/murderer and the humanitarian have sin, which He will not abide. Without the intervention of Jesus, both go to Hell. With the intervention of Jesus, both go to Heaven. Each has this chance, so this is not unfair. If the humanitarian rejects this chance, and the murderer/rapist accepts it, then yes, the m/r (abbreviation!) goes to Heaven and the humanitarian goes to Hell. That's what the Bible teaches.

What the Bible also teaches, though, is that there are different levels of reward in Heaven, and different levels of punishment in Hell. (see Luke 12:47–48; Prov. 24:12; Matt. 16:27; Col. 3:25; Rev. 20:11–15). So, although the m/r gets into Heaven, he likely receives almost no reward (or perhaps even no reward at all). Likewise, although the humanitarian gets sent to Hell, he very likely is suffering far less than Hitler (to use yet another over the top example).

One last thing you need to consider is that you need to look at this from God's perspective. He condescends to take human flesh, suffers horribly, and dies for the sins of the world. The humanitarian, hearing this, refuses to accept that free gift. He throws it back in God's face, saying he can do it on his own. Does he really deserve to spend eternity with the God he rejected? Would he even want to?

Anyway, that's what the Bible says. Obviously, it's up to you to believe it or not.

Part two is what happens to the person who never hears about Jesus. Let me get the cliched answer out of the way first: This is actually kind of irrelevant, since anyone who is discussing the problem isn't affected by it. You've heard the Gospel, and so must make a choice. Now, then, what does the Bible say about those who have not heard the gospel?

Nothing.

Nothing direct, anyway.

There is nothing Scriptural that I am aware of, for example, to support the idea that those who never hear will not be condemned.

There are several possible answers to this question, though.

In Romans 1 18-20 Paul says this:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

In this, and other verses, the Bible says that all know God through His creation. So, another answer is that the person who has not heard, has, as Paul says, "no excuse". He should still seek God through the revelation of nature.

One theory is that just as many in the Old Testament were saved for their faith in the coming Messiah, these could be saved by their faith in God as revealed in their hearts and nature.

There are other theories, too, such as the idea that God will allow each unwitnessed-to person a chance to hear supernaturally, or perhaps something else entirely.

As I said, though, the Bible makes nor direct statement about it. Perhaps this is because it's not a practical situation, since as I said, anyone debating it is going to have heard. If God had put everything in the Bible, it'd be too big! (It's late, and I'm coming up blank on a ridiculous size analogy). I do think, though, that it would be irresponsible to answer more specifically, or with any definitive nature, on what happens to those who do not hear, because there's no specific Scripture that specifically deals with it.

There's just no way a Christian can honestly give a definitive Scriptural answer to the question.

What I do know with certainty, though, is that God is just, and whatever He does, none will have cause to complain.

Or how about the Jewish faith? They dont believe Christ is even born yet. The doctor who saved my life was Jewish.. does he get thrown in the lake of fire? I would have a hard time seeing that. I have cussed before, and have told lies. Does telling my boss I'm late because of a made up reason get me thrown in the lake? I would like to think that leading a life in which I generally do my best to be the best person possible would be enough to get me into heaven.

If you truly have a saving faith in Christ, then as cited earlier in Romans, His righteousness is accounted to you, and you have nothing to worry about.

[techboy]

Getting back on topic, what you used to believe in is pretty much how I look at the bible now. I do not believe in the new testament as in Jesus was a diety, but instead he was just a normal man. The books were written decades after his death, and it was common back then for great people to be written as mythological dieties after they died. Look at people like Achilles, Helen of Troy and others as examples. They were diefied after they died, and I think this is the case with Jesus.

This theory is sometimes advanced, but the problem is that legendary devolpment like you're talking about typically takes hundreds of years, and the first stories of Jesus being Ressurected have been dated to within 5 years.

From Contemporary Scholarship and the Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ by Dr. William Lane Craig (who I'm going to have to start sending royalties to soon, I think):

First, the resurrection appearances. Undoubtedly the major impetus for the reassessment of the appearance tradition was the demonstration by Joachim Jeremias that in 1 Corinthians 15: 3-5 Paul is quoting an old Christian formula which he received and in turn passed on to his converts According to Galatians 1:18 Paul was in Jerusalem three years after his conversion on a fact-finding mission, during which he conferred with Peter and James over a two week period, and he probably received the formula at this time, if not before. Since Paul was converted in AD 33, this means that the list of witnesses goes back to within the first five years after Jesus' death. Thus, it is idle to dismiss these appearances as legendary. We can try to explain them away as hallucinations if we wish, but we cannot deny they occurred. Paul's information makes it certain that on separate occasions various individuals and groups saw Jesus alive from the dead. According to Norman Perrin, the late NT critic of the University of Chicago: "The more we study the tradition with regard to the appearances, the firmer the rock begins to appear upon which they are based." This conclusion is virtually indisputable.

At the same time that biblical scholarship has come to a new appreciation of the historical credibility of Paul's information, however, it must be admitted that skepticism concerning the appearance traditions in the gospels persists. This lingering skepticism seems to me to be entirely unjustified. It is based on a presuppositional antipathy toward the physicalism of the gospel appearance stories. But the traditions underlying those appearance stories may well be as reliable as Paul's. For in order for these stories to be in the main legendary, a very considerable length of time must be available for the evolution and development of the traditions until the historical elements have been supplanted by unhistorical. This factor is typically neglected in New Testament scholarship, as A. N. Sherwin-White points out in Roman Law and Roman Society tn the New Testament. Professor Sherwin-White is not a theologian; he is an eminent historian of Roman and Greek times, roughly contemporaneous with the NT. According to Professor Sherwin-White, the sources for Roman history are usually biased and removed at least one or two generations or even centuries from the events they record. Yet, he says, historians reconstruct with confidence what really happened. He chastises NT critics for not realizing what invaluable sources they have in the gospels. The writings of Herodotus furnish a test case for the rate of legendary accumulation, and the tests show that even two generations is too short a time span to allow legendary tendencies to wipe out the hard core of historical facts. When Professor Sherwin-White turns to the gospels, he states for these to be legends, the rate of legendary accumulation would have to be 'unbelievable'; more generations are needed. All NT scholars agree that the gospels were written down and circulated within the first generation, during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses. Indeed, a significant new movement of biblical scholarship argues persuasively that some of the gospels were written by the AD 50's. This places them as early as Paul's letter to the Corinthians and, given their equal reliance upon prior tradition, they ought therefore to be accorded the same weight of historical credibility accorded Paul. It is instructive to note in this connection that no apocryphal gospel appeared during the first century. These did not arise until after the generation of eyewitnesses had died off. These are better candidates for the office of 'legendary fiction' than the canonical gospels. There simply was insufficient time for significant accrual of legend by the time of the gospels' composition. Thus, I find current criticism's skepticism with regard to the appearance traditions in the gospels to be unwarranted. The new appreciation of the historical value of Paul's information needs to be accompanied by a reassessment of the gospel traditions as well.

Also of interest is this quote from Resurrection Research from 1975 to the Present: What are Critical Scholars Saying? by Dr. Gary Habermas:

Most crucially, current scholarship generally recognizes that Jesus’ early followers claimed to have had visual experiences that they at least thought were appearances of their risen Master. Fuller’s comment may be recalled that, as “one of the indisputable facts of history,” both believers as well as unbelievers can accept “[t]hat these experiences did occur.”

Jesus' earliest followers actually believed that He was risen from the dead. Many of these were His Disciples, and so actual witnesses to the events in question. Thus, no legendary development is possible.

BTW, this is bothersome to me, and I don't know if it is to anyone else, but what if Jesus was crazy? What if he was just like a David Koresch figure who thought he was the son of god, and a bunch of people believed him? They wrote about him after his death from stories passed down, and the NT was written about a crazy man. HAs this thought passed into anyone else's head at all? just curious.

Yes, it has. C.S. Lewis first framed it as the "Trilemma": Lord, Liar, or Lunatic? Jesus claimed to be God, and so he was either God, lying, or completely insane. Lewis argued, by the way, that this neatly removes the option of "good moral teacher" that so many these days like to claim.

I think he proved he wasn't crazy by actually rising from the dead. I'm not going to eat up more space by copying my arguments for this from before, but if by some chance you haven't read them, you can go to my previous post here.

However, as established by Dr. Habermas, it is a consensus of secular and Christian scholars alike that Jesus' early followers believed He rose from the dead. So, in my mind, the issue is not so much whether He was crazy, but whether they were.

Keep in mind, the Disciples were in a position to know for sure. They were around during His ministry, and they claimed to be witnesses to His Ressurection. Unlike us, they were actually there.

Their behavior is telling. They went from a bunch of lost, scared, poor, uneducated tax collectors and fishermen, cowering in a building, to bold proclaimers of Jesus' Ressurection, to the point that many of them died horribly rather than renounce Him.

Were they fooled or did they hallucinate? It seems implausible, especially given their numbers, their close familiarity with Jesus, and how Jews of the day (which they were) felt that the Messiah would come to glory. From the first article:

B. Jesus did not die on the cross, but was taken down and placed alive in the tomb, where he revived and escaped to convince the disciples he had risen from the dead. This apparent death theory was championed by the late eighteenth/early nineteenth century German rationalists, and was even embraced by the father of modern theology, F. D. E. Schleiermacher. Today, however, the theory has been entirely given up: (i) it would be virtually impossible medically for Jesus to have survived the rigors of his torture and crucifixion, much less not to have died of exposure in the tomb. (ii) The theory is religiously inadequate, since a half-dead Jesus desperately in need of medical attention would not have elicited in the disciples worship of him as the exalted Risen Lord and Conqueror of Death. Moreover, since Jesus on this hypothesis knew he had not actually triumphed over death, the theory reduces him to the life of a charlatan who tricked the disciples into believing he had risen, which is absurd. These reasons alone make the apparent death theory untenable.

C. The disciples projected hallucinations of Jesus after his death, from which they mistakenly inferred his resurrection. The hallucination theory became popular during the nineteenth century and carried over into the first half of the twentieth century as well. Again, however, there are good grounds for rejecting this hypothesis: (i) it is psychologically implausible to posit such a chain of hallucinations. Hallucinations are usually associated with mental illness or drugs; but in the disciples' case the prior psycho-biological preparation appears to be wanting. The disciples had no anticipation of seeing Jesus alive again; all they could do was wait to be reunited with him in the Kingdom of God. There were no grounds leading them to hallucinate him alive from the dead. Moreover, the frequency and variety of circumstances belie the hallucination theory: Jesus was seen not once, but many times; not by one person, but by several; not only by individuals, but also by groups; not at one locale and circumstance but at many; not by believers only, but by skeptics and unbelievers as well. The hallucination theory cannot be plausibly stretched to accommodate such diversity. (ii) Hallucinations would not in any case have led to belief in Jesus' resurrection. As projections of one's own mind, hallucinations cannot contain anything not already in the mind. But we have seen that Jesus' resurrection differed from the Jewish conception in two fundamental ways. Given their Jewish frame of thought, the disciples, were they to hallucinate, would have projected visions of Jesus glorified in Abraham's bosom, where Israel's righteous dead abode until the eschatological resurrection. Thus, hallucinations would not have elicited belief in Jesus' resurrection, an idea that ran solidly against the Jewish mode of thought. (iii) Nor can hallucinations account for the full scope of the evidence. They are offered as an explanation of the resurrection appearances, but leave the empty tomb unexplained, and therefore fail as a complete and satisfying answer. Hence, it seems that the hallucination hypothesis is not more successful than its defunct forebears in providing a plausible counter-explanation of the data surrounding Christ's resurrection.

[LiveStrongSkins]

well thank you guys for posting answers to my questions. Those are just some of the little things that no one could ever really explain to me.

[betsy thurman]

Sorry, I thought it was pretty clear in the preceding paragraph.:whoknows:

i think that was a pretty clear representation of the Christian belief -- if folks really want to get clear on what God expects from us there is a great instruction guide available worldwide

[betsy thurman]

Just as certain Christians like Catholics can become too focused on works, and forget that only faith saves, other Christians focus too much on faith, and forget that a true saving faith naturally begets works.

amen and amen

[Jumbo]

Tech, thank you for the fine reply, and that puts some flesh on the bones, some I'd known and some I hadn't. I hate to sound simplisitc but in terms of the faith and works vs faith first , then works, in the overall umbrella of accepting God (per the Bible) and his word and his way, there is some fairly intesne hair-splitting, IMO. But I understand it will be huge to others. I meant what I said, and it's just speculation of course, but I truly believe if you elminated all non-Christian belief systems, the remaining Christian belief systems would go at each other with equal (I actually think greater) fervor. With the Biblically based belief as usually construed/presented in this forum, just like in Highlander, there can only one.

I'm going to mention in this same post, not directed at you or anyone in particular, but referring to AJ's last posting which includes his synopsis of events: it reads to me that his presentation casts God as anything but infallible. It leans more towards His being thrown so badly by the unpredicatble humans not once but twice. And that he had to re-group and modify the plan to get a better shot at his desired result, arguably at an unfair cost to those who didn't get advantage of Jesus' presence as part of their choosing to belief or not. There is a lot there that seems at adds with previous understandings in that analysis, but maybe I missed something.

[Jumbo]

i think that was a pretty clear representation of the Christian belief -- if folks really want to get clear on what God expects from us there is a great instruction guide available worldwide

Betsy, you prompt me to think it may be appropriate to say something regarding my participation in such dialogoues that I think most of my companions know. I may ask questions or present situations that I have already read/heard "answers" to in the Bible (several versions) or from other sources many times, but am interested in what the particlular people I am discussing things with say and think and how they put their individual signature on these matters. This can be more enlightening at times, for me, then seeing information I've already processed. Its that proven, old, phenomena of hearing the same thing in a different way that can spark a fresher look at the matter, even if not change-making in nature.

In additon to receiveing that, when things are going well, I also sometimes get a new piece of hard info I have missed before. That's why I truly appreciate those who take the time to add their own well-thought words to the effort as much as the links and text they quote from the Bible or other source. I find this same phenomena teaching the same class one term after the other with new students even when we stick with the same text over the course of a year. We always explore new websites (though I only allow minimal use of them as tertiary references) and magazine articles though too, so I do appreciate those tips.

[StuckinIA]

Unfortunately, the Bible can also be used to justify the existence of reptilian aliens and the Great Pyramid being a hydraulic ram. Big book, lots of words, lots of crazy uses. Kind of like Crisco.