jrockster21 Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 A lot of what I am saying would need the overturn of important development in the world of physics.Starting with INFINITY!!! Okay, but the problem is, infinity is a well accepted concept...its not something you can just "overturn" to suit your needs. (If I understand you correctly, this is what you are trying to do) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Added to my cart at Amazon, AtB. I didn't read that other thread--but I may venture a try tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Okay, but the problem is, infinity is a well accepted concept...its not something you can just "overturn" to suit your needs. (If I understand you correctly, this is what you are trying to do) Not true, I just called up my boy Stephen Hawking and asked if he could overturn the concept of infinity. He said consider it done. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 portis, what were all trying to tell you, is that infinity is completly viable, and used in everyday mathematics. its not all that hard to fathom. what is the biggest number? how about a googaplex? that's the bigges number i've heard of, therefore its the biggest number i comprehend. because its the biggest number i can comprehend, its beyond human comprehension that there are bigger numbers, and everyone else it wrong. the concept of infinity is that there is no biggest number, becuase you can add 1 to any number (or subract in negatives) and get a bigger number, thus the cycle repeats and there is no bigger number.infinity exsists, i believe that the universe extends to infinity, mostly becuase no end has ever been found to it, but also becuase fundamental algebra teaches it and is aplied in every equation where the domain is restricted (where x is in the denominator or in a root), you can have any number within the restricted domain to infinity in one direction or the other on the number line, or sometimes both more than often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 A lot of what I am saying would need the overturn of important development in the world of physics.Starting with INFINITY!!! how can one be a christian and not believe in the concept of infinity? the universe extends in vastness to infinity, infinity is a concept, not a number, refer to my previous post above to understand infinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 And I think this is the great divide...why can't there be a time t=0?? The beginning of everything?? Its a hard concept for even scientists to wrap their heads around, but I don't think its impossible...Now whether or not t=0 was proceeded by some god-like figure who exists outside of time and pushed a button, well we may never know...and its probably impossible to know. :whoknows: which is why it is based on faith alone, none of the points anyone is making can be proven, which sometimes is good, and sometimes can be a problem, for what is fact other than what we can observe with our own eyes and have had first hand expirences, and i know none of us have ever sat down face to face with God to get all the answers (lucky for me that i believe i'll be able to someday:D), so i guess that nothing is certain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 I know I've recommended this before, but I have to recommend it again: Science of G-d. I don't necessarily agree with everything in that book, but it'll give your own view points a run for their money--no matter where they lie. Iheart, I think you'd enjoy this book: Everything & More: A Concise History of Infinity. In fact, I've recommended it earlier, in this thread--http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/...ad.php?t=130195.Now, I wouldn't blame anyone for not having the stamina to read that whole thread, but if anyone does, he or she might note the source of some of my frustration in this thread. A lot of things we're discussing here have been picked over in the same words in that other thread. I am going to buy both of these books (even though AtB was a little particular with his recommendation)...they both sound very interesting. However there is a super-cute girl who works at the info desk at Barnes and Noble at the Ala Moana Center, so I will be going there to purchase them! :D Everyonce in awhile I do see god...and its in the very shapely form of a female! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 another interesting topic of debate is whether you can support the entire randomness of the universe through pure coincidense (meaning that with the non-God creation theories, the belief is that life happened out of pure coincidense) but doesnt the odds of life happening by acident intimidate some atheists, just a little? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 does any one know exactly what the computed odds are that the universe happened by accident? some university did a study on it and the odds are pretty big. i heard some anology once that if the odds where equated in pizza slices (8 being a pizza) then there would be enough pizza to feed every person in the world for 5 years straight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 12th Commandment Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 does any one know exactly what the computed odds are that the universe happened by accident? some university did a study on it and the odds are pretty hig. i heard some anology one that if the odds where equated in pizza slices (8 being a pizza) then there would be enough pizza to feed every person in the world for 5 years straight That is still less than infinity. If we accept that the universe is infinitely large, then statistics are meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 That is still less than infinity. If we accept that the universe is infinitely large, then statistics are meaningless. even so statistics provide basis for understanding raw data even if they are constraind to the laws of the universe, understood or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 does any one know exactly what the computed odds are that the universe happened by accident? some university did a study on it and the odds are pretty big. i heard some anology once that if the odds where equated in pizza slices (8 being a pizza) then there would be enough pizza to feed every person in the world for 5 years straight And you will bet that the "study" was done by a religous group with no scientific backing. I'm thinking Bob Jones myself. You know how i know? Because it isn't a quantifiable matter. What are the chances that god exists? How do you quantify something not based on facts? You can't, that's why the study is bogus. If you find it, I can show you where their flaws are in terms of quantifying the existance of everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 does any one know exactly what the computed odds are that the universe happened by accident? some university did a study on it and the odds are pretty big. i heard some anology once that if the odds where equated in pizza slices (8 being a pizza) then there would be enough pizza to feed every person in the world for 5 years straight That doesn't make any sense...the odds are really really small...so it would be the tiniest fraction of a slice of pizza, not some huge amount of pizza...unless I'm misunderstanding?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 And you will bet that the "study" was done by a religous group with no scientific backing. I'm thinking Bob Jones myself.You know how i know? Because it isn't a quantifiable matter. What are the chances that god exists? How do you quantify something not based on facts? You can't, that's why the study is bogus. If you find it, I can show you where their flaws are in terms of quantifying the existance of everything. it'll take a while, but i can find it online somewhere. and it was a university study. no major university, even a christian institution, would ever do a comprehensive study without some scientific backing. (unless you're a mormon at brigum young:), the laws of nature and physics would then no longer apply)edit: also there are sme prety prestigeous religious scientific groups out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 That doesn't make any sense...the odds are really really small...so it would be the tiniest fraction of a slice of pizza, not some huge amount of pizza...unless I'm misunderstanding?!? i guess i didn't explain it good enough, sorry:laugh:. the number of slices of pizza is equivelent to something like this random odds statistic 10^10^100:1 pizza slices being on the right, thats alot of pizza!edit: gosh darn it all i did it again! ok let me explain the odds again, for all intensive perpouses lets use the odds 10:1, what im saying is that its something like this, "the odds of the universe just being able to hold proper conditions for life by coincidense is 10:1 or in other words very slim like you said earlier, i guess my original anology just didn't hold up to logic, CURSE you logic! edit:edit: ok im really bad at this original post thing:doh: pizza slices on the LEFT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 i guess i didn't explain it good enough, sorry:laugh:. the number of slices of pizza is equivelent to something like this random odds statistic 10^10^100:1 pizza slices being on the right, thats alot of pizza!edit: gosh darn it all i did it again! ok let me explain the odds again, for all intensive perpouses lets use the odds 10:1, what im saying is that its something like this, "the odds of the universe just being able to hold proper conditions for life by coincidense is 10:1 or in other words very slim, like you said earlier, i guess my original anology just didn't hold up to logic, CURSE you logic! I guess I'm looking at it as one slice of pizza...the sum of the probabilities has to equal one; either a universe is created or it is not created...one pizza. So the probability that it won't be created is the majority of one pizza... That's the way I look at statistics, anyway....from the sounds of that example, I think chom is right about it being a "biased" study...:whoknows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 I guess I'm looking at it as one slice of pizza...the sum of the probabilities has to equal one; either a universe is created or it is not created...one pizza. So the probability that it won't be created is the majority of one pizza...That's the way I look at statistics, anyway....from the sounds of that example, I think chom is right about it being a "biased" study...:whoknows: what the anology boils down to i guess is that the number on the right is so big that the only way to comprehend it is to use pizzas instead of numbers, enough to feed a whole lotta peopleedit: ok im am REALLY bad at this, pizzas on the LEFT, on the LEFT, gosh im an idiot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 even if that one study is bogus, i might be, the odds are still prety big from what we can guess by ourselves, it has to be. but also the complex relationships between organisms and the environment, on earth and in the solar system, is in such a delicate balance is a mircle life exsists at all on any level. also the precise relationships, for example respiration and photosynthesis, to me prove the exsistance of an inteligent creator, to me God. but then again thats just my opionion, i just like to marvel at the wonder of God's creation, it's beautiful isn't it? (or at least until mankind destroys it:doh:, but thats for another thread) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 The important thing to remember when seeing those kinds of statistics is that even though the odds of winning the lottery are 80 million to 1, somebody still wins it every few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 The important thing to remember when seeing those kinds of statistics is that even though the odds of winning the lottery are 80 million to 1, somebody still wins it every few weeks. but you also need to keep in mind that the lotery is very difrent than the big bang, in the lotery there is a guarenteed winneralso to use another analogy with the big band theory. if i took a gas staion and it was in a theoretical vacum with no other matter in this alternate universe other than the gas station and i blew it up, the odds are very high that when gravity brings the matter back together it will never form a gas station again... not quite the same but you get the bigger idea implied by it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooka Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 i guess i didn't explain it good enough, sorry:laugh:. the number of slices of pizza is equivelent to something like this random odds statistic 10^10^100:1 pizza slices being on the right, thats alot of pizza!edit: gosh darn it all i did it again! ok let me explain the odds again, for all intensive perpouses lets use the odds 10:1, what im saying is that its something like this, "the odds of the universe just being able to hold proper conditions for life by coincidense is 10:1 or in other words very slim like you said earlier, i guess my original anology just didn't hold up to logic, CURSE you logic! edit:edit: ok im really bad at this original post thing:doh: pizza slices on the LEFT Any statistics you could fathom wouldn't make any sense.We don't know enough about particles beyond a certain level, matter, life, space/time, etc to even guess some kind of probability remotely accurate enough to even apply it to Borel's Law. Once again for the 3rd time. There are no theories for the true start of everything. We have theories on how the universe formed like the Big Bang, and theories like the Big Splat which includes 11 dimensions, or the Big Crunch that predicts an infinite number of universes forming. There is no scientific theory on the start of everything. Just like there's no religious theory on what created God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 but you also need to keep in mind that the lotery is very difrent than the big bang, in the lotery there is a guarenteed winner No there isn't. Sometimes many weeks go by without a winner and the prize gets really big. also to use another analogy with the big band theory. if i took a gas staion and it was in a theoretical vacum with no other matter in this alternate universe other than the gas station and i blew it up, the odds are very high that when gravity brings the matter back together it will never form a gas station again... not quite the same but you get the bigger idea implied by it The lottery analogy is just pointing out that it doesn't matter how many times the universe screws up and becomes something else. All those aliens living in crappy universes can keep their losing tickets. As long as just one time it becomes the world that we live in now, that's enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 No there isn't. Sometimes many weeks go by without a winner and the prize gets really big. but there is eventually a winner right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 i see the universe as a lottery winner, but we just don't know which lottery it won. the odds were against it, and it won, but which lottery did it win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 but there is eventually a winner right? As far as I know, every lottery has eventally been won, and as far as I know, we do live in a livable universe. I just think you're looking at this issue the wrong way because we're all sitting here in a winning universe. It's like if you had a deck of cards, and you picked out one and said, "Wow! the 3 of diamonds! There was only a 1/52 chance of that happenning! That's less than 2%!" When you already have the card in your hand, the ticket in your pocket, or the universe before your eyes, the long odds don't matter anymore because you've already won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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