Ancalagon the Black Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 I can't believe how common it is for people to post a thread about something, get completely owned on that thread, and then months later start posting in a different thread about the same topic. Portisizzle, your views on infinity were entirely discredited in a thread a few months ago. You've ignored all of that and said, "Oh, look at me--I'm a victim! All these INTELLECTUALS [as though it's a bad thing to be smart] are ganging up on me and telling me that they understand something I don't." I think it's clear from historical threads that a lot of people understand certain logical and mathematical concepts that you do not. Gigantor, please read up on the history of this topic on this board. Skinfan13, gravity is not only unproven--it's wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 the important thing about this debate that we all need to understand is that no one can disprove the other, to be honest no one knows the answer and i gather no one ever will in this lifetimeso theres no point for some of the personal atacks that i've seen in this thread, what ever happened to inteligent debate:rolleyes: (not that anyone has insulted me; the guys who have replied to me have been very good people:thumbsup: ) and to the christians out there who are atacking others verbally shame on you! you guys know thats not what our faith teaches us to do! Shut up, punk! This is a good point...nobody can disprove the other, however I think the real debate is whether or not creationism is the end-all theory. From my observations, most Christians (excluding yourself) refuse to acknowledge the possibility of creationism being incorrect, whereas scientists are open to all possibilities. However one argument is based on faith alone, and one argument is based on science. :whoknows: Maybe the faith-based argument is correct, but the entire point of being an athiest or agnostic is that the faith-based arguments don't fly! Therefore, its a round and round we go argument... Nice post, skinsfan...:applause: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Skinfan13, gravity is not only unproven--it's wrong. mind explaining for me how THE most accepted peice of scientific tought is wrong??? it may be a theory, but acording to the argument you are refuting, nothing can be truly proven, then therefore, how can something be utterly wrong as you say? gravity is a theory, but would you mind telling me what the force of atraction between masses is that makes me come back down when i jump if it is not gravity?(edit) plus that part of the post you made to me discounts your credibility, how can any inteligent person say that the theory of gravity is WRONG? jump for me and tell me why you do not keep going infinatley up, it is becuase of newtons second law and gravity... YOU need to reaserch scientific thought before you post garbage like that bring something inteligent to the discussion, don't just say that im wrong, tell me WHY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Skinfan13, gravity is not only unproven--it's wrong. I don't want to turn this thread in another direction, but is it accurate to say gravity is wrong??? I think that is one of those things that some scientists are saying, while others are debunking...its not 100% in either direction...or is it? I'm just a lowly engineer...what do I know? :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 mind explaining for me how THE most accepted peice of scientific tought is wrong??? it may be a theory, but acording to the argument you are refuting, nothing can be truly proven, then therefore, how can something be utterly wrong as you say? gravity is a theory, but would you mind telling me what the force of atraction between masses is that makes me come back down when i jump if it is not gravity?(edit) plus that part of the post you made to me discounts your credibility, how can any inteligent person say that the theory of gravity is WRONG? jump for me and tell me why you do not keep going infinatley up, it is becuase of newtons second law and gravity... YOU need to reaserch scientific thought before you post garbage like that bring something inteligent to the discussion, don't just say that im wrong, tell me WHY The force exists...the theory behind it may be wrong. I think it does not apply on the quantum level, which is why quantum physicists say that it is wrong. I'm not 100% sure, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 mind explaining for me how THE most accepted peice of scientific tought is wrong??? it may be a theory, but acording to the argument you are refuting, nothing can be truly proven, then therefore, how can something be utterly wrong as you say? gravity is a theory, but would you mind telling me what the force of atraction between masses is that makes me come back down when i jump if it is not gravity?(edit) plus that part of the post you made to me discounts your credibility, how can any inteligent person say that the theory of gravity is WRONG? jump for me and tell me why you do not keep going infinatley up, it is becuase of newtons second law and gravity... YOU need to reaserch scientific thought before you post garbage like that bring something inteligent to the discussion, don't just say that im wrong, tell me WHY Maybe it would've helped if he had said "Gravity explains things as we experience them on Earth reasonably well, but falls apart when talking about other aspects of physics." Newton had nothing to go on in formulating his Theory of Gravity beyond what he (and others) could observe of the motion of heavenly bodies and of particles on Earth. This is an excellent illustration of my previous point. New evidence has come to light which refutes the Theory of Gravity once you move beyond the world of everyday human experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 mind explaining for me how THE most accepted peice of scientific tought is wrong??? it may be a theory, but acording to the argument you are refuting, nothing can be truly proven, then therefore, how can something be utterly wrong as you say? gravity is a theory, but would you mind telling me what the force of atraction between masses is that makes me come back down when i jump if it is not gravity?(edit) plus that part of the post you made to me discounts your credibility, how can any inteligent person say that the theory of gravity is WRONG? jump for me and tell me why you do not keep going infinatley up, it is becuase of newtons second law and gravity... YOU need to reaserch scientific thought before you post garbage like that bring something inteligent to the discussion, don't just say that im wrong, tell me WHY I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm saying that the theory of gravity is wrong. The Newtonian law of gravity doesn't work. Yes, we can't prove things, but we can disprove things. The law of gravity is a mathematical relationship: F = G * M1*M2/D^2 where F is the force of gravity, M1 and M2 are the masses of the two objects in question, and D is the distance between the centers of mass of those two objects. G is the gravitational constant, which I believe Cavendish added later. This works pretty well for everyday application, but at high speeds and high energies it breaks down. It also seems to break down on the quantum level. Therefore, we can say that the theory of gravity is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 I can't believe how common it is for people to post a thread about something, get completely owned on that thread, and then months later start posting in a different thread about the same topic.Portisizzle, your views on infinity were entirely discredited in a thread a few months ago. You've ignored all of that and said, "Oh, look at me--I'm a victim! All these INTELLECTUALS [as though it's a bad thing to be smart] are ganging up on me and telling me that they understand something I don't." I think it's clear from historical threads that a lot of people understand certain logical and mathematical concepts that you do not. Skinfan13, gravity is not only unproven--it's wrong. im sorry man but you bring absolutely NOTHING of value to the argument at hand, you are making a personal atack on portsizzle (the you make about him is irrelevant anyway, "if anything is said it is worth hearing" if you're smart you'll know who said that) "inteligent debate is where one person proposes a view, then another person proposes a counter-view and explains WHY, personal atacks are not included becuase they cloud the issue and do not support any points made" that is Plato's age old debate layout and it is still the best way, it is efficient and no one is offenedalso your sense of logic in this post does not fit the argument or the intelectual level of any of the active debaters who have mad very good points whereas you have not, please tell me your point of view, support it, or tell me WHY i am wrong, not just that i am wrong thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Maybe it would've helped if he had said "Gravity explains things as we experience them on Earth reasonably well, but falls apart when talking about other aspects of physics."Newton had nothing to go on in formulating his Theory of Gravity beyond what he (and others) could observe of the motion of heavenly bodies and of particles on Earth. This is an excellent illustration of my previous point. New evidence has come to light which refutes the Theory of Gravity once you move beyond the world of everyday human experience. Yes; you put it better than I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 ATB, hey i take back what i say, you have explained yourself fully (edit)- but also, disounting the theory of gravity still does not explain what the true force at hand is, the only true fact is that there is a force of atraction between masses that is vissible on earth, what that force is aparently has yet to be identified, but then again who are we to decide:) plus that force by cultural standards just happens to be called gravity, in the dictionary it is merely defined as "the force of atraction between masses" in the first definiton, so "gravity" doesnt nescesarily refer to a specific phenomena, just the force of atraction in general. plus the original argument is what theories of the creation of the universe do you adhere to, i think we are straying a little off topic:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 im sorry man but you bring absolutely NOTHING of value to the argument at hand, you are making a personal atack on portsizzle (the you make about him is irrelevant anyway, "if anything is said it is worth hearing" if you're smart you'll know who said that) "inteligent debate is where one person proposes a view, then another person proposes a counter-view and explains WHY, personal atacks are not included becuase they cloud the issue and do not support any points made" that is Plato's age old debate layout and it is still the best way, it is efficient and no one is offenedalso your sense of logic in this post does not fit the argument or the intelectual level of any of the active debaters who have mad very good points whereas you have not, please tell me your point of view, support it, or tell me WHY i am wrong, not just that i am wrong thank you I'm a bit upset at portisizzle's disingenuous manner in this thread. You haven't been privy to his posting history. I do not know who said, "If anything is said, it is worth hearing." Who did say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm saying that the theory of gravity is wrong. The Newtonian law of gravity doesn't work. Yes, we can't prove things, but we can disprove things.The law of gravity is a mathematical relationship: F = G * M1*M2/D^2 where F is the force of gravity, M1 and M2 are the masses of the two objects in question, and D is the distance between the centers of mass of those two objects. G is the gravitational constant, which I believe Cavendish added later. This works pretty well for everyday application, but at high speeds and high energies it breaks down. It also seems to break down on the quantum level. Therefore, we can say that the theory of gravity is wrong. Works for me...but I'm not sure if you can say its wrong, as it is still used as convention in everyday engineering. Maybe at the quantum level, which is why the general relativity theory is used...but to say gravity is wrong is not 100% accurate as I see it. Otherwise, we'd have to scrap billions of dollars of engineering projects right now and take them back to the planning stages! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooka Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Gigantor, you're asking an impossible question, and you're specifically asking atheists implying a connection with this question and God. There are no sceintific hypotheses on before the Universe was created. We're so far from even guessing. All the theories are how the Universe started and assume that the Big Bang was the start of time/space. (t=0) The Big Rip and Big Crunch thoeries conclude a bigger "mega-universe" or multi-universes that lead to an infinite number. Those theories have no bearing on when the cycle started or ended. (thinking beyond our universe) Its impossible to answer your question. Impossible. If the Universe itself could think, it wouldn't even remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 im sorry man but you bring absolutely NOTHING of value to the argument at hand, you are making a personal atack on portsizzle (the you make about him is irrelevant anyway, "if anything is said it is worth hearing" if you're smart you'll know who said that) "inteligent debate is where one person proposes a view, then another person proposes a counter-view and explains WHY, personal atacks are not included becuase they cloud the issue and do not support any points made" that is Plato's age old debate layout and it is still the best way, it is efficient and no one is offenedalso your sense of logic in this post does not fit the argument or the intelectual level of any of the active debaters who have mad very good points whereas you have not, please tell me your point of view, support it, or tell me WHY i am wrong, not just that i am wrong thank you I suggest you look at the post immeidately above your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Works for me...but I'm not sure if you can say its wrong, as it is still used as convention in everyday engineering. It's wrong, but it's close enough for you fuzzy-headed engineers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 im sorry man but you bring absolutely NOTHING of value to the argument at hand, you are making a personal atack on portsizzle You'll have to forgive him, the water swirls the other way in his toilet. "if anything is said it is worth hearing" I've got a few quotes. "A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire "Wise men make proverbs, but fools repeat them." -Samuel Palmer Skinfan, I'm clearly not calling you a fool. Up to this point, you've been a very responsible poster as far as I've seen. I was a little surprised to see you shooting off at someone who is one of the more respected posters on these boards. I understand your instinct to defend Portisizzle, but these sorts of threads are not new to the Tailgate. Certain posters have made their views clear and seem to be either unwilling or unable to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winslowalrob Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm saying that the theory of gravity is wrong. The Newtonian law of gravity doesn't work. Yes, we can't prove things, but we can disprove things.The law of gravity is a mathematical relationship: F = G * M1*M2/D^2 where F is the force of gravity, M1 and M2 are the masses of the two objects in question, and D is the distance between the centers of mass of those two objects. G is the gravitational constant, which I believe Cavendish added later. This works pretty well for everyday application, but at high speeds and high energies it breaks down. It also seems to break down on the quantum level. Therefore, we can say that the theory of gravity is wrong. Something has to be said for a theory that works pretty well for everyday application, as you mentioned. I have no problem saying the theory is wrong in its universal application, but it works well in a limited scope of events. In any case, at least we can say that the theory is not universal, and are looking for a better theory. Unlike some other infallible arguments out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 It's wrong, but it's close enough for you fuzzy-headed engineers. Fair enough!! As one of my wiser professors once said: "Engineering is the art of approximation!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 I do not know who said, "If anything is said, it is worth hearing." Who did say that? it is a quote from jean-jacques rousseau, an enlightenment thinker from the 1700's, a very smart man by the way:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 it is a quote from jean-jacques rousseau, an enlightenment thinker from the 1700's, a very smart man by the way:D I should have remembered that, given the number of papers I wrote on the first Discourse of his. He was never my favorite philosophe, though; I didn't agree with his State of Nature formulation. Noble savage, my ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 ATB, hey i take back what i say, you have explained yourself fully(edit)- but also, disounting the theory of gravity still does not explain what the true force at hand is, the only true fact is that there is a force of atraction between masses that is vissible on earth, what that force is aparently has yet to be identified, but then again who are we to decide:) plus that force by cultural standards just happens to be called gravity, in the dictionary it is merely defined as "the force of atraction between masses" in the first definiton, so "gravity" doesnt nescesarily refer to a specific phenomena, just the force of atraction in general. plus the original argument is what theories of the creation of the universe do you adhere to, i think we are straying a little off topic:) wanted to make sure ATB hears that:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Noble savage, my ass! Yes, the noble savage doesn't really exist, but that's a whole other thread completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 I suggest you look at the post immeidately above your own. its mere coincidense that mine folowed that, i began writing it before that one was posted, go figure:D if i could just move that post above it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 (edit)- but also, disounting the theory of gravity still does not explain what the true force at hand is, the only true fact is that there is a force of atraction between masses that is vissible on earth, what that force is aparently has yet to be identified, but then again who are we to decide:) And science never really answers the ultimate "WHY" in anything...it only leads us in certain directions and we understand more and more of the how and small minor "whys" along the way. But until any of us has an understanding of the real "WHY" (which is what I refer to as the basis behind why and/or how the universe was created and continues to exist), each of us will make our own decision and stand by that decision with various degrees of rigidity. Some explain through science, some through religion and some through a synthesis of the two. But no one knows the real "WHY"; and if they tell you that they do, they are either (i) lying, (ii) being facetious or (iii) believes that G-d, their god, or some combination of gods was respsonsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 But no one knows the real "WHY"; and if they tell you that they do, they are either (i) lying, (ii) being facetious or (iii) believes that G-d, their god, or some combination of gods was respsonsible. (iiii) A faceless, formless supernatural force or presence is responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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