MacLean's: Why the American empire has lost control—and its failure is imminent (Chris Hedges interview)

[Bozo the kKklown]

Pulitzer Prize winner Chris Hedges has a new book out called, "America, The Farewell Tour" where he discusses why the American Empire is ending. He doesn't hold back any punches in this interview, and I plan on copping the book.

 

Here is one Q and A from the webpage.

 

Q: So that is the answer to the question puzzled liberals pose in America: why do Trump supporters in particular, or Republican working-class supporters in general, vote against what liberals see as their own interests?
A: That idea is just untrue. The Democratic Party has long abandoned working-class America. And the sense of betrayal on the part of the Democrats was deeper because traditionally the Democrats had been at least open to the interests of labour. That was all abolished under Bill Clinton, who—like Hillary—understood astutely that if they did corporate bidding they would get corporate money. The political spectrum in the United States across the two major parties is now so narrow as to be almost irrelevant. What they argue about are cultural or social issues. But that’s a form of anti-politics. They don’t actually argue about anything of substance in terms of the economy or foreign policy. That’s why you see complete continuity between Republican and Democratic administrations. So the rage is quite legitimate. That was fascinating for me when I was in Anderson, Ind., which is—was—one of GM’s epicentres. After NAFTA, carmakers could move to Mexico and pay workers $3 an hour without benefits. According to the old UAW officials, their members voted for Sanders in the primary but then voted for Trump in the general, because they weren’t going to vote for Clinton. They were fully aware that their city, their lives, their families, their ability to make an income that could sustain them, was taken away from them by the Democratic Party machine. Oh, and when I say complete continuity, one caveat—Barack Obama’s assault on civil liberties and levels of deportations of undocumented workers were actually worse than Bush’s.

 

Rest of the interview

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/worldpolitics/why-the-american-empire-has-lost-control-and-its-failure-is-imminent/

 

And here is an interview he did with MSNBC on the book.

 

 

 

A longer interview with Steve Paikan:

 

 

[bearrock]

Guess we should vote for Trump then.

 

Who cares about efficiency and wealth brought on by the global economy and free trade.  Let's prop up those dinosaur manufacturing jobs that will get replaced by automation anyway.

[TradeTheBeal!]

The UAW got way too big for its britches in the 70s/80s.  One could reasonably argue that NAFTA and the way it forced the UAW to change its self-destructive policies is the main factor why the UAW is still a viable entity in 2018.

[Bozo the kKklown]

1 hour ago, bearrock said:

Guess we should vote for Trump then.

 

Who cares about efficiency and wealth brought on by the global economy and free trade.  Let's prop up those dinosaur manufacturing jobs that will get replaced by automation anyway.

a) Hedges is very anti-Trump but points out that a lot of the supporters anger is because the political class has said "eff the American worker" and sold them out to corporations

b) the problem isn't the old manufacturing jobs being gone, but capitalism being run and controlled by corporations who are basically oligarchs.

 

57 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

The UAW got way too big for its britches in the 70s/80s.  One could reasonably argue that NAFTA and the way it forced the UAW to change its self-destructive policies is the main factor why the UAW is still a viable entity in 2018.

The American auto worker is worse off though.

[zoony]

`our economy has been seized by wal st speculators`

 

Beeen shouting this since 2009.  The long term capital development of our economy has been hijacked not by the actions of a casino, as Keynes wrote, but by the actions of Ivy League asswipes who sit in manhattan and trade little bits of paper back and forth to each other all day long.  The Ivy League and top universities used to produce titans of industry and people who actually add value to the economy.  Nowadays they just produce douchebag bond salespeople and douchebag lawyers.  The American economy is 100 percent staffed and kept afloat by state university graduates.  Check the management structures of wal mart, procter and gamble, ford etc.  No ivy league asswipes.  Now check the roster of Goldman Sachs.  100% Ivy league asswipes.  Paying themselves huge bonuses and speculating on if GE can bounce back, taking a cut of the profits.

 

If you want to know why corporate america sucks, dont blame corporate america.  They are simply playing the game that wal street requires of them.  There is a reason the best jobs nowadays are within the government and private companies.

 

As for the dems, they abandoned the working class decades ago.  The author is right.  They are the party of trannys, outrage culture, and saying America sucks.  The GOP is still the party of **** the working poor, however at least theyre not stupid.  They realize that the two most important things to the working class in this country are religion and guns.  Dems still too stupid to realize it.  Doubt they ever will.

 

There is something that Bernie and Trump both tapped into.  Americans are tired of their jobs being shipped overseas.  Americans are tired of hearing from politicians that it is inevitable and to just deal with it, while coastal elites wonder why everyone doesnt just buy a loft in manhattan where there are plenty of jobs.  Americans are tired of losing and being told thats just the way it is.  Seeing newsreel footage of 3rd world ****holes like china that show a higher standard of living than the US.  Or northern european countries where everyone has a nice place to live, a college education, free healthcare, and no worries.  Both Bernie and Trump campaigned to these people and showed them a path forward.  It was the wrong path forward, but i credit them for AT LEAST SPEAKING TO THESE AMERICANS.  Clinton campaigned in NY and LA, and dems claim collusion is why she lost.  Lol.

 

 

[zoony]

22 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

The American auto worker is worse off though.

 

Why do we as americans resent our own workers?  Does anyone think that German or Japanese auto workers have suffered the way americans have?  No.  They are both countries where people value their workers, and dont say things like `theyre too hig for their britches`.  

 

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Trump’s America cannot compete with the children of immigrants America

 

it is why they voted Trump. Too many children of Indian and Asian immigrants are kicking their asses in school & corporate America 

[Gibbit]

8 minutes ago, SkinsHokieFan said:

Trump’s America cannot compete with the children of immigrants America

 

it is why they voted Trump. Too many children of Indian and Asian immigrants are kicking their asses in school & corporate America 

Those Indian and Asian immigrants probably voted for trump....they define conservatism. America cant compete with other nations workforces that make a few dollars a day

[Bozo the kKklown]

No politician is doing anything to break down the corporate power structure that is harming us all today. 

 

 

[zoony]

Just now, BenningRoadSkin said:

No politician is doing anything to break down the corporate power structure that is harming us all today. 

 

 

 

Are you kidding?  Our politicians were fraternity brothers with all of the goldman sachs vultures at Harvard.

 

[Bozo the kKklown]

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

55 minutes ago, Gibbit said:

Those Indian and Asian immigrants probably voted for trump....they define conservatism. America cant compete with other nations workforces that make a few dollars a day

 

Trump isn’t conservatism the way you define it. He is the exact opposite of it which is why he did very poorly amongst Indian/Asian communities 

[Springfield]

I think that people’s perception is that they get taxed incredibly highly by the federal government and receive very little in return.  At least at the state and local level, we see road improvements, schools and police (granted some of those receive federal funds).

 

Where does all of my federal money go?  I know I’ve got a lot of friends that get paid with federal funds to work with contractors that do basically dick.

 

Thats why the government sucks.  There’s no return on investment.  People don’t mind cutting taxes because they feel like they aren’t getting anything in return anyhow.

[Gibbit]

3 minutes ago, Springfield said:

I think that people’s perception is that they get taxed incredibly highly by the federal government and receive very little in return.  At least at the state and local level, we see road improvements, schools and police (granted some of those receive federal funds).

 

Where does all of my federal money go?  I know I’ve got a lot of friends that get paid with federal funds to work with contractors that do basically dick.

 

Thats why the government sucks.  There’s no return on investment.  People don’t mind cutting taxes because they feel like they aren’t getting anything in return anyhow.

Defense, or offense...however you want to look at it cause offense is the best defense right? Are the superpowers ever going to go to war with eachother again? Are we too connected and intertwined and advanced past it? at some point we will be. If all nations could stop spending (not all but most... got to deal with little guys) money on defense....where are we

[Springfield]

26 minutes ago, Gibbit said:

Defense, or offense...however you want to look at it cause offense is the best defense right? Are the superpowers ever going to go to war with eachother again? Are we too connected and intertwined and advanced past it? at some point we will be. If all nations could stop spending (not all but most... got to deal with little guys) money on defense....where are we

 

I mean, does it really though?  Because all I every hear about is how vastly underpaid the enlisted forces are and their sacrifices.  I do feel like for the 25% of each paycheck or whatever it is, that I don’t really get my money’s worth out of defense.  Maybe we could pay soldiers better?

 

Also, I feel like there is a lot of “government contracting” that goes into defense spending, which is again where I hear about all these people who work 4 day workweeks for 6 figure pay and haven’t seen a holiday that they didn’t take off for.

[Gibbit]

1 hour ago, Springfield said:

 

I mean, does it really though?  Because all I every hear about is how vastly underpaid the enlisted forces are and their sacrifices.  I do feel like for the 25% of each paycheck or whatever it is, that I don’t really get my money’s worth out of defense.  Maybe we could pay soldiers better?

 

Also, I feel like there is a lot of “government contracting” that goes into defense spending, which is again where I hear about all these people who work 4 day workweeks for 6 figure pay and haven’t seen a holiday that they didn’t take off for.

its the weapons and technology that governments pay for and get no return for because they simply become obsolete (compared to the next iteration of weapon). You want to keep the military, but the weapon spending is beyond absurd. I think our current weapons are cool enough and can kill just about anything....maybe not Thanos with infinity guantlet

[Nerm]

1 hour ago, Gibbit said:

its the weapons and technology that governments pay for and get no return for because they simply become obsolete (compared to the next iteration of weapon). You want to keep the military, but the weapon spending is beyond absurd. I think our current weapons are cool enough and can kill just about anything

 

They way we spend on weapons is a big area of frustration for me.  It seems like the deciding factor on weapon systems has nothing to do with defending national interests.  Instead, we get a process where we chose weapons based on how many states/congressional districts have businesses that will benefit from the chosen weapon.  

 

Much like NASA, they keep spending more and more money to try to build a rocket that isn't nearly as efficient or inexpensive as ones that are currently available.  Their goal has already been surpassed by private companies, but NASA continues to go over budget trying (but failing) to build something that is useless, but has parts manufactured in as many districts as possible.  

[TheGreatBuzz]

4 hours ago, Springfield said:

 

I mean, does it really though?  Because all I every hear about is how vastly underpaid the enlisted forces are and their sacrifices.  I do feel like for the 25% of each paycheck or whatever it is, that I don’t really get my money’s worth out of defense.  Maybe we could pay soldiers better?

 

 

Not to derail but enlisted folk make a decent amount once they have been in for a bit (5+ years) but the new kid out of high school still makes decent money when you factor in free housing and healthcare.  Those memes you see only consider base pay in an effort to make their point seem even stronger.  No one just states honest facts anymore without cherry picking to further their agenda. 

[Corcaigh]

8 hours ago, zoony said:

`our economy has been seized by wal st speculators`

 

 

I was at the Inc 5000 conference this week and Ron Shaich (founder of Panera and other big successes) talked about how agency theory has ****ed many companies, and why activist investors and short termism are such a big threat.

 

it's why you see many companies raising the middle finger to Wall Street and going private.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jaycoengilbert/2017/12/13/boy-oh-boy-oh-boy-another-conscious-capitalist-joins-the-fight-against-short-termism/#373dde8873cd

[PeterMP]

On 10/20/2018 at 2:37 PM, zoony said:

`our economy has been seized by wal st speculators`

 

Beeen shouting this since 2009.  The long term capital development of our economy has been hijacked not by the actions of a casino, as Keynes wrote, but by the actions of Ivy League asswipes who sit in manhattan and trade little bits of paper back and forth to each other all day long.  The Ivy League and top universities used to produce titans of industry and people who actually add value to the economy.  Nowadays they just produce douchebag bond salespeople and douchebag lawyers.  The American economy is 100 percent staffed and kept afloat by state university graduates.  Check the management structures of wal mart, procter and gamble, ford etc.  No ivy league asswipes.  Now check the roster of Goldman Sachs.  100% Ivy league asswipes.  Paying themselves huge bonuses and speculating on if GE can bounce back, taking a cut of the profits.

 

If you want to know why corporate america sucks, dont blame corporate america.  They are simply playing the game that wal street requires of them.  There is a reason the best jobs nowadays are within the government and private companies.

 

As for the dems, they abandoned the working class decades ago.  The author is right.  They are the party of trannys, outrage culture, and saying America sucks.  The GOP is still the party of **** the working poor, however at least theyre not stupid.  They realize that the two most important things to the working class in this country are religion and guns.  Dems still too stupid to realize it.  Doubt they ever will.

 

There is something that Bernie and Trump both tapped into.  Americans are tired of their jobs being shipped overseas.  Americans are tired of hearing from politicians that it is inevitable and to just deal with it, while coastal elites wonder why everyone doesnt just buy a loft in manhattan where there are plenty of jobs.  Americans are tired of losing and being told thats just the way it is.  Seeing newsreel footage of 3rd world ****holes like china that show a higher standard of living than the US.  Or northern european countries where everyone has a nice place to live, a college education, free healthcare, and no worries.  Both Bernie and Trump campaigned to these people and showed them a path forward.  It was the wrong path forward, but i credit them for AT LEAST SPEAKING TO THESE AMERICANS.  Clinton campaigned in NY and LA, and dems claim collusion is why she lost.  Lol.

 

1.  The part about guns and God are only true is you mean the white rural working poor (which is what you always do).

 

2.  I have no idea why you think Germany has held onto their manufacturing base as compared to the US:

 

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?id=DEUPEFANA,

 

(Germany is down from about 40% unemployment in manufacturing in the mid-1970s down to below 20% in 2012.  We were never as high (in mid-1970s we were at 27%) and in 2012 were down to about 10%.  So in both countries, you have over a 100% decline in employment in manufacturing.)

 

Japan's at about 17% so it isn't like they are doing great (can't find time series for them), and their GDP has essentially been flat since 1997.  Anybody that is out there thinking let's be like Japan, needs to be kept far away from anything related to the nation economy.

 

3.  The current Wall Street structure is the direct result of policies largely implemented and pushed by the Republican party from capital gains tax cuts to banking regulations.  The rural white workers abandoned the Democrat party (starting with Reagan), and yes, then the Democrats shifted policies to be more like Republicans.  We've made it so that being on Wall Street is a good way to make money, and then we are surprised that Wall Street has money to help shape policies.  We've made created a society that worships making money and made the Wall Street and investing the best way to make lots of money and then are surprised that's where the best and brightest want to go.  Yet the rural white working poor have for decades voted for politicians that favor policies that allow those same people to collect more money (including the last Republican/Trump tax cut).

 

4.  There is no way good to keep low skilled manufacturing jobs in the US.  If they aren't out sourced, they will be automated away.  The number of coal workers in this country declined while coal production increased for decades.  BUT there are jobs that are hard to out source/automate that we could make better paying jobs by increasing minimum wages and helping organized labor (and we know what party is against those things).

 

There's no real reason why somebody that works on a car assembly line or as a coal miner should make more than a whole host of other jobs other than just historical nature of the union movement and there were large masses of people working in the same place all year in those industries and not in others.

 

But for people that live in rural WV or KY, there isn't really much we can do for them.  They can move to some where else or stay there knowing they are putting themselves at an economic disadvantage.  If they really like WV, that's fine, and I'm all for helping WV in terms of cleaning up some of the environmental problems that they have from industry if they at the state level will work at it too.  But in terms of bringing a lot of jobs to WV that would support a level of employment that the coal industry did, there isn't really anything we can do.

 

That's reality.

 

5.  In terms of the northern European countries that are doing well, you can almost entirely look at how they've treated their natural resources as compared to us:

 

http://time.com/money/4949545/norway-wealth-fund-reaches-1-trillion/

 

Try getting those white rural working poor that you are railing for to nationalize natural resources on federal lands.

 

6.  The voting of the rural white worker is why this country is where it is for the most part.  To then turn around and try to paint them as the victim is laughable.

[PeterMP]

@zoony

 

And let me add, when Reagan went to the Neshoba County Fair and talked about state's rights it had nothing to do with God or guns.

 

When Bill Clinton criticized Sister Souljah during the Democratic primary, it had nothing to do with God or guns.

 

The S. Carolina push poll against McCain in the 2000 GOP primary about him having a black child had nothing to do with God or guns.

 

Trump gained a foothold in the GOP not talking about God or guns, but whether Obama was really an American.

 

So spare me the woe is the poor working rural white voter that has been screwed over by both parties and now can only vote for Republicans based on God and guns.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

On 10/20/2018 at 1:51 PM, Gibbit said:

Those Indian and Asian immigrants probably voted for trump....they define conservatism.

I'm glad somebody can because I have no idea what that word means anymore.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

On 10/20/2018 at 3:23 PM, Gibbit said:

Are the superpowers ever going to go to war with eachother again?

Yeah, we're under attack right now. Russia is destroying us.

[Springfield]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

@zoony

 

And let me add, when Reagan went to the Neshoba County Fair and talked about state's rights it had nothing to do with God or guns.

 

When Bill Clinton criticized Sister Souljah during the Democratic primary, it had nothing to do with God or guns.

 

The S. Carolina push poll against McCain in the 2000 GOP primary about him having a black child had nothing to do with God or guns.

 

Trump gained a foothold in the GOP not talking about God or guns, but whether Obama was really an American.

 

So spare me the woe is the poor working rural white voter that has been screwed over by both parties and now can only vote for Republicans based on God and guns.

 

Tldr they racist af

[Destino]

6 hours ago, PeterMP said:

But for people that live in rural WV or KY, there isn't really much we can do for them.  They can move to some where else or stay there knowing they are putting themselves at an economic disadvantage.  If they really like WV, that's fine, and I'm all for helping WV in terms of cleaning up some of the environmental problems that they have from industry if they at the state level will work at it too.  But in terms of bringing a lot of jobs to WV that would support a level of employment that the coal industry did, there isn't really anything we can do.

 

That's reality.

It’s late, so I want be sure I’m reading this right.  You’re saying that the states of KY and WV should be essentially designated poverty zones and recommend those areas be abandoned?