Greatest Athlete in D.C. History (team sports)

[thebluefood]

2 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Just doing some digging around, MLB players played against Negro Leaguers.  Unfortunately the stats don't exist but there are some cool anecdotes out there.

 

http://agatetype.typepad.com/agate_type/2012/12/walter-johnson-negro-leaguer.html

Oh yeah - I remember seeing an interview with Negro Leaguer/Hall of Famer/Sunshine in your day Buck O'Neill where he talks about Babe Ruth and even Ty Cobb playing exhibition games against Negro Leaguers in the Caribbean before integration. But as you mentioned, stat sheets are elusive and all we have now are anecdotes.

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 minutes ago, thebluefood said:

Oh yeah - I remember seeing an interview with Negro Leaguer/Hall of Famer/Sunshine in your day Buck O'Neill where he talks about Babe Ruth and even Ty Cobb playing exhibition games against Negro Leaguers in the Caribbean before integration. But as you mentioned, stat sheets are elusive and all we have now are anecdotes.

 

Buck O'Neil.  There's a guy.  World would be a much better place with more Buck O'Neils.

 

Anyway, Ovi.  

[Sticksboi05]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Agreed to a certain extent, but segregated baseball wasn't his decision.  Still was the premier pitcher of his day.  

 

I said irrelevant more as a jab to anyone who thinks DC sports starts after 1970 or so.  Johnson should certainly have a case.  

 

The answer is probably Ovechkin though.  

 

 

 

I don't think it matters much whose decision it was. I see it like this:

 

If we compare Johnson and say Greg Maddux (this is just a random name) on an even scale 5 and 5, I won't knock Johnson down off the bat to a 4 because he played pre-integration BUT I will absolutely give 1 point to Maddux and bump him up to a 6. So I'd have it off the bat as 6 to 5 but not 6 to 4 if that makes sense.

[thebluefood]

1 minute ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Buck O'Neil.  There's a guy.  World would be a much better place with more Buck O'Neils.

 

Anyway, Ovi.  

Yup - Ovi. 

I feel like one of those SuperFans guys from the SNL skit about the Bears. 

"Ovi, half-smoke, Caps, Caps, Ovi..."

[Sticksboi05]

58 minutes ago, Kurd Cudins said:

What's recency bias?

 

It'd be more fun if you said who you think it is good sir. We want good discussion.

[Springfield]

A vote for anyone other than Ovechkin is a vote to stand out.

 

Youre not a ****ing hipster, you’re not even hip.  You aren’t different, you’re just difficult.  Stop with your silly voting for players of yesteryear who don’t matter.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Springfield

[Bozo the kKklown]

the answer is only Ovechkin.

Walter Johnson didn't play against black players. Everything before MLB integration should be seen as a different sport.

 

Sammy Baugh is one, but no one rates players before 1950. (he also did not play against black players)

 

Wes Unseld may be the strongest case but he pre-Magic/Bird NBA is forgotten. Also many power forwards have passed him the last 20 years.

[scruffylookin]

I was going to vote for Baugh anyway, but Loverro's point regarding Gretzky and Russian/Eastern European players sealed it.

 

Nobody, and I mean nobody, has tried to reduce Gretzky's greatness because he didn't play against Russian or Eastern European players during his heyday where he tore up the league.

 

Should anyone's accomplishments in the NFL be diminished after 1994 since the salary cap and free agency has watered teams down?

 

Yet people always try to reduce Baugh's greatness because it was "too long ago" and "who" he didn't have to go against.

 

Those are not legit arguments against him. You have no clue how he would have faired. None. You can only evaluate what he did in his time relative to others.

 

He was a phenom during his time. He was a revolutionary player who helped change his sport. He won titles. He played forever. He transcended his sport.

 

He is without a doubt the greatest player in DC sports history. It's not even close.

 

To say otherwise is just riding the current wave and not actually taking time to really examine Sammy Baugh and his impact on DC, the Redskins and the NFL.  Historical perspective is important.

 

Alex has certainly cemented his name among the all time greats in the NHL and in DC sports. No question. Hell if the Caps go on a run and win more titles, he may even legit be in the discussion against Baugh. But not now.

[Warhead36]

3 minutes ago, scruffylookin said:

I was going to vote for Baugh anyway, but Loverro's point regarding Gretzky and Russian/Eastern European players sealed it.

 

Nobody, and I mean nobody, has tried to reduce Gretzky's greatness because he didn't play against Russian or Eastern European players during his heyday where he tore up the league.

 

Should anyone's accomplishments in the NFL be diminished after 1994 since the salary cap and free agency has watered teams down?

 

Yet people always try to reduce Baugh's greatness because it was "too long ago" and "who" he didn't have to go against.

 

Those are not legit arguments against him. You have no clue how he would have faired. None. You can only evaluate what he did in his time relative to others.

 

He was a phenom during his time. He was a revolutionary player who helped change his sport. He won titles. He played forever. He transcended his sport.

 

He is without a doubt the greatest player in DC sports history. It's not even close.

 

To say otherwise is just riding the current wave and not actually taking time to really examine Sammy Baugh and his impact on DC, the Redskins and the NFL.  Historical perspective is important.

 

Alex has certainly cemented his name among the all time greats in the NHL and in DC sports. No question. Hell if the Caps go on a run and win more titles, he may even legit be in the discussion against Baugh. But not now.

You never hear Sammy Baugh in the greatest NFL players of all time discussion because the NFL back then was hardly a sport. They are legitimate arguments because dominating a modern era sport is MUCH more significant than dominating in an era where the vast majority of guys were barely professional caliber athletes.

 

Ovechkin has dominated the NHL and scores goals in an era where goal scoring is much more difficult. He has won multiple MVPs. And he just lead us to a Stanley Cup, which might be the most difficult championship to win out of any to the overall league balance/parity and difficulty of winning sixteen games in the postseason. He is a physical force, a ridiculous combination of power, speed, and skill. He'll have a shot at Gretzky's goal records by the time his career is up.

[justice98]

55 minutes ago, CrypticVillain said:

I feel like we need a "How to compare players in different eras?" thread...

Because I just feel like if I take a player like, let's say Jason Smith, and put him in the 50s, he would destroy the league.

 

I digress, but I'm just saying. lol

 

I can just imagine Jason Smith getting into the hot tub time machine.  Next thing you know, "can Lebron ever catch Jason Smith" debates start popping up. 

[Sticksboi05]

1 minute ago, scruffylookin said:

Nobody, and I mean nobody, has tried to reduce Gretzky's greatness because he didn't play against Russian or Eastern European players during his heyday where he tore up the league.

 

Should anyone's accomplishments in the NFL be diminished after 1994 since the salary cap and free agency has watered teams down?

 

 

Wayne Gretzky had a 130 point season in 1993-94 post-Russian embargo and was a productive player throughout the 90s so the comparison is not that great on his part. And even so, the NHL in the 80s had more talent than the NFL in the 1930s.

[Bozo the kKklown]

Just now, scruffylookin said:

I was going to vote for Baugh anyway, but Loverro's point regarding Gretzky and Russian/Eastern European players sealed it.

 

Nobody, and I mean nobody, has tried to reduce Gretzky's greatness because he didn't play against Russian or Eastern European players during his heyday where he tore up the league.

 

Should anyone's accomplishments in the NFL be diminished after 1994 since the salary cap and free agency has watered teams down?

 

Yet people always try to reduce Baugh's greatness because it was "too long ago" and "who" he didn't have to go against.

 

Those are not legit arguments against him. You have no clue how he would have faired. None. You can only evaluate what he did in his time relative to others.

 

He was a phenom during his time. He was a revolutionary player who helped change his sport. He won titles. He played forever. He transcended his sport.

 

He is without a doubt the greatest player in DC sports history. It's not even close.

 

To say otherwise is just riding the current wave and not actually taking time to really examine Sammy Baugh and his impact on DC, the Redskins and the NFL.  Historical perspective is important.

 

Alex has certainly cemented his name among the all time greats in the NHL and in DC sports. No question. Hell if the Caps go on a run and win more titles, he may even legit be in the discussion against Baugh. But not now.

hang on, the NHL banned Russian/Eastern European players from the league? That is nowhere near the same.

 

And Gretzky got busy when the Eastern Europeans came into the NHL as well, so that point doesnt make sense.

 

No reputable outlet has Sammy Baugh as one of their top 20 players of all time. Meanwhile Ovechkin is universally hailed as that in the NHL and more than likely will finish higher.

[Springfield]

I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a replay of Sammy Baugh playing football and I couldn’t pick him out of a lineup with 5 other dudes.  That’s how irrelevant Sammy Baugh is.

[Sticksboi05]

11 minutes ago, Springfield said:

I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a replay of Sammy Baugh playing football and I couldn’t pick him out of a lineup with 5 other dudes.  That’s how irrelevant Sammy Baugh is.

 

Lol that's cruel. I don't wanna pretend like he didn't play - I won't go that far. Also we've got the "hockey hater" browsing the thread so cue the "I don't care about hockey so Ovechkin can't be the choice" post likely incoming.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

This thread is really just a disguised poll with the intent to get everyone in and circle jerk for Ovechkin now that the rush of winnin the cup has died down. Now we need validation. But hockey is a still a sport nobody cares about. Ovi is amazing at hockey but that’s like being the best scrabble player I n the DC area. Yeah that’s nice and all but it’s not really a big deal or something most care to notice. Dude could be sitting 5ft away from the majority of sports fans in the area and they wouldn’t know him

 

The answer sadly is Darrell Green. He’s an all time great at his position, multiple time champion, played at a high level for his entire career and he played at a time when the league wasn’t watered down and laughable like Baugh. 

 

The fact green is the answer speaks to the state of DC sports. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Momma There Goes That Man

[thebluefood]

To say a word for Baugh: he was drafted in 1937 because the 'Skins were moving from Boston and needed someone to put asses in the seats and get them over the championship hump.

 

He did both in spades.

 

In an era when the NFL was just barely starting to gain relevancy and respectability, he converted the city and the surrounding states to professional football in one season. Mind you, the region's only other choice was a woeful Senators team whose glory years were firmly behind them but without Sammy Baugh playing the kind of football the 'Skins played, I don't know if professional football makes it in D.C. - at least, not in the way it did. There had been a Washington based NFL team about 13 years earlier that fizzled out. Who's to say the 'Skins would have been any different without Baugh? The only other major player for the team was Cliff Battles - a fullback nearing the end of his career. They drafted Andy Farkas in '38 to replace him but it's highly doubtful he'd be a gate attraction like Baugh. 

 

We always talk about D.C. as, traditionally, a football town - how the 'Skins hold a stranglehold on the sports discourse in the region (though that may be changing). How do you think that happened? Do you think it was just the Hoggs and Riggo or the "Over the Hill Gang?" As far as individual players are concerned, Baugh is the man primarily responsible for shaping the D.C. sports landscape - to the point where only now there's a legit threat to the Redskins Hegemony. 

 

Now, having said all that - yes, without a doubt, Alexander Ovechkin is the greatest individual athlete to represent a D.C. based team in one the major, four North American team sports. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by thebluefood

[Sticksboi05]

4 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

 

Lol that's cruel. I don't wanna pretend like he didn't play - I won't go that far. Also we've got the "hockey hater" browsing the thread so cue the "I don't care about hockey so Ovechkin can't be the choice" post likely incoming.

 

+1 to me for seeing that post coming

[Sticksboi05]

17 minutes ago, thebluefood said:

To say a word for Baugh: he was drafted in 1937 because the 'Skins were moving from Boston and needed someone to put asses in the seats and get them over the championship hump.

 

He did both in spades.

 

In an era when the NFL was just barely starting to gain relevancy and respectability, he converted the city and the surrounding states to professional football in one season. Mind you, the regions only other choice was a woeful Senators team whose glory years were firmly behind them but without Sammy Baugh playing the kind of football the 'Skins played, I don't know if professional football makes it in D.C. - at least, not in the way it did. There had been a Washington based NFL team about 13 years earlier that fizzled out. Who's to say the 'Skins would have been any different without Baugh? The only other major player for the team was Cliff Battles - a fullback nearing the end of his career. They drafted Andy Farkas in '38 to replace him but it's highly doubtful he'd be a gate attraction like Baugh. 

 

We always talk about D.C. as, traditionally, a football town - how the 'Skins hold a stranglehold on the sports discourse in the region (though that may be changing). How do you think that happened? Do you think it was just the Hoggs and Riggo or the "Over the Hill Gang?" As far as individual players are concerned, Baugh is the man primarily responsible for shaping the D.C. sports landscape - to the point where only now there's a legit threat to the Redskins Hegemony. 

 

Now, having said all that - yes, without a doubt, Alexander Ovechkin is the greatest individual athlete to represent a D.C. based team in one the major, four North American team sports. 

 

Thanks for posting this - I don't think we should just completely sweep what he did under the rug regardless of era.

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

Kevin Durant 

[Warhead36]

38 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

This thread is really just a disguised poll with the intent to get everyone in and circle jerk for Ovechkin now that the rush of winnin the cup has died down. Now we need validation. But hockey is a still a sport nobody cares about. Ovi is amazing at hockey but that’s like being the best scrabble player I n the DC area. Yeah that’s nice and all but it’s not really a big deal or something most care to notice. Dude could be sitting 5ft away from the majority of sports fans in the area and they wouldn’t know him

 

The answer sadly is Darrell Green. He’s an all time great at his position, multiple time champion, played at a high level for his entire career and he played at a time when the league wasn’t watered down and laughable like Baugh. 

 

The fact green is the answer speaks to the state of DC sports. 

 

 

 

 

This is dumber than any of the pro Baugh posts. Darrell Green? That's a joke. He was never even the best CB in the league. He was never even the best player on his own team.

 

And I'm fairly certain, at least after last week, that almost everyone in the DC area would recognize Ovechkin. Hell even my mom who knows nothing about sports knows who Ovie is now.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Scherzer could be an option, especially if he wins Cy Young and MVP this year.  He's still got a few more years left though.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Spaceman Spiff

[Sticksboi05]

38 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

This thread is really just a disguised poll with the intent to get everyone in and circle jerk for Ovechkin now that the rush of winnin the cup has died down. Now we need validation. But hockey is a still a sport nobody cares about. Ovi is amazing at hockey but that’s like being the best scrabble player I n the DC area. Yeah that’s nice and all but it’s not really a big deal or something most care to notice. Dude could be sitting 5ft away from the majority of sports fans in the area and they wouldn’t know him

 

The answer sadly is Darrell Green. He’s an all time great at his position, multiple time champion, played at a high level for his entire career and he played at a time when the league wasn’t watered down and laughable like Baugh. 

 

The fact green is the answer speaks to the state of DC sports. 

 

 

 

 

 

Hockey is absolutely the fourth of the Big 4 in the U.S. (though NHL is 5th highest revenue league in the world) but after the last 2 months, there is no way Ovechkin would not be universally recognized throughout the D.C. area if he was out and about. This isn't 2006.

[mcsluggo]

3 hours ago, Sticksboi05 said:

 

Johnson is the most dominant but to me, ignoring era is being purposefully dishonest. I will never give segregation-era players the same credit as those who played against full talent pools.

 

I'll never give these athletes that play in the diluted 32 team leagues the same credit as those that had to make to make it playing against only the best.... 

 

(this one was a half/joke.. make a point argument...  but a BIGGER (and more true) argument FOR the people from Johnson's era was that there was really only one game in the USA in 1900-ish... the best (white, american) athletes ALL played baseball.  period.   ... but these arguments are all bull****.   You play against who you play against, with the rules that are in place.    You can't ACTUALLY (directly) compare Jim Thorpe to Ian Thorpe (Thorpedo)  ... so you do your best.   

[justice98]

7 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

This is dumber than any of the pro Baugh posts. Darrell Green? That's a joke. He was never even the best CB in the league. He was never even the best player on his own team.

 

 

Agreed.  I love Darrell as much as the next person, but there's just no way it's him.  

[thebluefood]

Not to mention Green wasn't a player who carried a team on his back the way Ovi, Baugh, and Johnson had in their respective sports and teams. I don't know if a cornerback, no matter how good they are, can do that. In football, only a quarterback can (and the keyword there is can) conceivably do that. 

 

The Gibbs I era had great players too be sure but they were a team. The X factors on that team were on the sidelines and the FO in Gibbs and Bethard (respectively).

 

And yes, @Spaceman Spiff - Scherzer could very well be in this conversation, especially if the Nats actually manage to get it together and win a championship this year. He is, far and away, the best player on the team right now and his stellar W/L record doesn't even do him service (though W/L records for baseball pitchers are pretty iffy metrics to begin with).

 

He's already right there with Sonny Jurgensen and Elvin Hayes as the town's best free agent acquisition. He leads them to the pennant and especially a World Series championship, he's front and center in the conversation.