The Defensive Line Thread - Who makes the cut?

[DC Lumber Co.]

Discussion on the defensive line started to creep into the linebacker discussion thread and figured it warranted its own topic.

 

We all know by now that Tomsula is keeping things ambiguous regarding the Defensive line. He evidently doesn't believe in depth charts, and has been keeping everyone guessing with almost every combination of players getting run with the 1st team in training camp so far.

 

In a recent Tomsula article he noted that "you only have 5 guys active on gameday" which gives us something to go on for speculating who makes the cut. Now, does that mean we keep only 5 on the active roster total? Or is it possible we keep 6 or 7 with only 5 dressing on gamedays, similar to offensive line? Anyone have insight on this?

 

Who in your opinion makes the cut? Anyone in particular that you're rooting for? Do we keep a traditional nose at all or would Tomsula rather keep more ends with someone like McGee pulling double duty?

 

DE - Jonathan Allen, Anthony Lanier, Ziggy Hood, Matt Ioannidis, Terrell McClain, Stacy McGee

 

NT - Phil Taylor, Joey Mbu, AJ Francis, Ondre Pipkins

 

DEs with versatility to play NT (have played or been mentioned as being able to play NT) - Ziggy Hood, Matt Ioannidis, Stacy McGee

 

Another important question I haven't seen asked before: Do either of McGee or McClain's contracts make it cost-prohibitive to cut them should others on the roster out-perform them? 

 

 

Other factors that could shake this all up:

 

1. Signing another teams training camp casualty.

2. After evaluation of current talent during pre-season, lackluster performance prompts a trade for Sheldon Richardson. 

3. The numbers game at OLB forcing a position switch for Trent Murphy or Preston Smith from linebacker to DE, full-time.

 

[TSO]

I'll just throw this here. Tons of talk this offseason about the Nose... looks like someone is finally emerging. 

 

Wouldn't it be awesome if we get anything remotely close to the player the Browns drafted in the first round in 2011? 

 

From @HapHaszard in the BRBN forum: 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2017/08/07/finally-healthy-nose-tackle-phil-taylor-positioned-to-land-starting-job-with-the-redskins/?utm_term=.a44326905783

 

Quote

RICHMOND — Ever since the Washington Redskins’ Mike Shanahan-mandated switch to the 3-4 defense back in 2010, the nose tackle position has resembled somewhat of a revolving door.

 

----------—-——•—————-----------

Young players Joey Mbu and A.J. Francis offer intriguing potential. But it’s starting to look like the search could lead the Redskins to a mountain of a man, whose NFL career once appeared very much in doubt.

 

As training camp has progressed, Phil Taylor has looked more like the guy that the Cleveland Browns drafted 21^st overall in 2011, and not the hobbled player that Cleveland, Denver and other teams wrote off after surgery on his right knee in 2014 and a series of recurring injuries to the same knee in 2015 and 2016.

 

The 6-foot-3, 343-pounder entered camp third on the depth chart, but in the last week-and-a-half he’s climbed to first while displaying great power, quickness and athleticism.

 

In the trenches, Taylor has emerged as a disruptive force by clogging run lanes and generating good pressure on the quarterback during one-on-one battles, or by taking on double-teams to free up teammates to make play.

On runs or screen passes to the outside, Taylor displays great athleticism as he runs to the ball, keeping pace with linebackers in pursuit of ball carriers.

 

“Phil is a big cat that can move, and that cannot be moved,” defensive coordinator Greg Manusky said with a laugh. “He’s doing a really nice job inside. We’ve got a lot of good competition there, and I can’t wait to see us in this first preseason game. But Phil’s doing really well.”

 

----------—-——•—————-----------

 

Signing with Washington fulfilled a boyhood dream for the Clinton, Md., native, who grew up cheering for the Redskins. But Taylor knew the deal in January was just another step in the process. He then had to further improve his conditioning. Tomsula and Washington’s trainers ran the defensive linemen more this offseason than any team Taylor had ever seen. But that helped him get into shape faster.

 

Taylor also used offseason practices to knock off the rust built up from not playing a regular season game since 2014.

 

“The football skills, you don’t ever really lose them,” Taylor said. “That just comes with being a football player. … It’s just getting the cobwebs out.”

 

Taylor has apparently taken care of the cobwebs and now looks like one of Washington’s top defensive linemen. It’s expected that he will start on Thursday at Baltimore, and in that game, he hopes to further prove his capabilities to coaches and team officials.

 

Taylor has avoided making any bold predictions of what kind of season he can have now that he’s finally healthy again. He believes it’s far too early for predictions, or to feel like he has arrived.

 

“I’m just doing what I have to do for the team,” Taylor said. “I haven’t done anything yet, haven’t made the team yet. I’m just taking it day by day and trying to get better as I go.”

 

Click on the link for a lot more (it's a pretty big article) 

[98ORAKPO98]

 

Matt ioannidis, Phil Taylor, Jonathan Allen, Terrell McLain, Stacy McGee, Anthony Lanier, Ziggy Hood 

[SkinssRvA]

^^ Holy **** Will Compton still sucks

[drowland]

Not buying any hype on Taylor.  He was a disruptive player when he was healthy but the guy has bad knees and at 343 Ibs I would expect that to continue.  The Broncos and Steelers already kicked the tires on him and saw how bad a shape the tires are.  

[skinsfan212689]

7 minutes ago, drowland said:

Not buying any hype on Taylor.  He was a disruptive player when he was healthy but the guy has bad knees and at 343 Ibs I would expect that to continue.  The Broncos and Steelers already kicked the tires on him and saw how bad a shape the tires are.  

Time heals all!!!

 

Taylor may finally be healthy again. 

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, SkinssRvA said:

^^ Holy **** Will Compton still sucks

Exactly what I got out of that. Foster fills the main gap. The line holds. Everyone else gets pushed down the line, but Compton doesn't get to the edge and it's a successful run.

[SkinsGuy]

42 minutes ago, drowland said:

Not buying any hype on Taylor.  He was a disruptive player when he was healthy but the guy has bad knees and at 343 Ibs I would expect that to continue.  The Broncos and Steelers already kicked the tires on him and saw how bad a shape the tires are.  

 

That was then. This is now.  

 

Check out this instagram post. Taylor is the big guy in the middle wearing number 98 in the burgundy jerseys (I think it is 98):

 

 

The man can definitely hustle.  

[justice98]

43 minutes ago, SkinssRvA said:

^^ Holy **** Will Compton still sucks

 

Yeah, that looked bad.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, justice98 said:

 

Yeah, that looked bad.

awful. Especially with Swearinger coming down to plug the hole Compton can't get away from.

 

Just like last year.

[SkinssRvA]

50 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

awful. Especially with Swearinger coming down to plug the hole Compton can't get away from.

 

Just like last year.

If Compton is starting over Zach Brown come game 1 I'm going to consider turning off the TV every time we are on defense.  

[RandyHolt]

2 hours ago, SkinssRvA said:

^^ Holy **** Will Compton still sucks

 

At least he moved at the snap. Progress. 

 

But I don't think that was his gap. 90 30 24? a few more perhaps all whiffed. We barely got a hand on him - the whole D got burned.

 

I did like seeing our new big boy Phil Taylor way down field. The jersey riding up from his blazing speed making his jersey number look like 00.

[Hail2theSkins24]

Phil Taylor is someone I didn't expect to make the 53, but it's starting to look like he's healthier than he has been in a while. He can be an asset against teams that run often and slow the game down (Ahem Dallas). And then teams like NYG and GB who run hurry up you just deactivate him. I hope we keep 7 DL and he is one of them. We'll see how he does against other competition 

[returnofthefunbunch]

1 hour ago, SkinssRvA said:

^^ Holy **** Will Compton still sucks

Can't just be tough on him.  It is hard to see, but it looks like Cravens( I can't see the number, but it looks like 30) doesn't play that real well either.  It almost looks like Compton saw S. Long hitting the gap and expected him to keep coming to block him.  When he saw long hold up to chip Taylor, it was too late to get to the outside. I'm not sure about gap responsibility when it comes to zone blocking.  I always thought ILB had inside out responsibilty.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

1 hour ago, SkinsGuy said:

Taylor is the big guy in the middle wearing number 98 in the burgundy jerseys (I think it is 98):

 

Just an FYI.  Taylor is 99. Ioannidis is 98.  But he is moving for a 340+ pound guy.

[SkinssRvA]

3 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

At least he moved at the snap. Progress. 

 

But I don't think that was his gap. 90 30 24? a few more perhaps all whiffed. We barely got a hand on him - the whole D got burned.

 

I did like seeing our new big boy Phil Taylor way down field. The jersey riding up from his blazing speed making his jersey number look like 00.

He should have scraped over top and made the play.  Unblocked linebacker, has to make the play.  It's the difference between a 5 yard play and a touchdown.  

 

Not too thrilled with #90 either.  

[Malapropismic Depository]

Is there any chance Ionnidis can play NT ?

Guy has gotten a lot stronger this year, like an ox.

I heard he bull-rushed Scherff of all people, 5 yards into the backfield....TWO straight times !

[RandyHolt]

6 minutes ago, SkinssRvA said:

He should have scraped over top and made the play.  Unblocked linebacker, has to make the play.  It's the difference between a 5 yard play and a touchdown.  

 

Not too thrilled with #90 either.  

 

True, but maybe you are setting unrealistically high expectation bar him, if last year was any measuring stick .  I am bummed that Zach Brown hasn't taken control and been named our new captain. Compton seems closer to a depth guy than leader of the D. Oh well.

 

Damn Phil Taylor opened my eyes. We were all supposed to see the D getting burned, or the back / OL dominating. I saw 99.  We couldn't find a nose if we had a mirror throughout the history of our 3-4. Maybe just maybe after 8 years we have one.  I would really like to see him pitchfork and rag doll the Ravens starting C on the first play of the game.

[SkinssRvA]

9 minutes ago, returnofthefunbunch said:

Can't just be tough on him.  It is hard to see, but it looks like Cravens( I can't see the number, but it looks like 30) doesn't play that real well either.  It almost looks like Compton saw S. Long hitting the gap and expected him to keep coming to block him.  When he saw long hold up to chip Taylor, it was too late to get to the outside. I'm not sure about gap responsibility when it comes to zone blocking.  I always thought ILB had inside out responsibilty.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

His initial fit was fine, I'd like him to press a bit more but he's covering the right gap. His hole is plugged, spencer isn't getting to him on the second level.  He has to scrape and make the play.  His reaction time is below poor.  It was #90s gap from what I can tell.  If you have an untouched linebacker unable to scrape over one gap to make a tackle 5 yards down the field, that's a huge problem.  Doesn't even touch him...

 

edit: and yes, sua with a poor angle as well.  Any one of those three players mentioned does even a tiny bit above what they are doing, and it's a 5 yard gain.  

[returnofthefunbunch]

3 minutes ago, SkinssRvA said:

His initial fit was fine, I'd like him to press a bit more but he's covering the right gap. His hole is plugged, spencer isn't getting to him on the second level.  He has to scrape and make the play.  His reaction time is below poor.  It was #90s gap from what I can tell.  If you have an untouched linebacker unable to scrape over one gap to make a tackle 5 yards down the field, that's a huge problem.  Doesn't even touch him...

True.  He always seems a bit hesitant, and his lack of speed doesn't help him to recover.  Thanks for the explanation.

[RandyHolt]

So we will have 5 active on game day. I think its safe to say Hood Taylor and McGee since they are listed as starters on the depth chart.  Allen is a no brainer. Matt Ion is listed behind McClain despite improvements, so I think that McClain rounds out the 5.

 

Passing downs, our top pair of DL will be Allen and I am going to guess, McClain. He started 15 games last year... with 2.5 sacks though. I know we are going to be rotating but am still interested in who will be first out on 2nd and 10 come thursday night.

 

I need football. I've watched that gif about 25 times already. Long closed the door on any idea Compton had of making the play. I can see why Compton was late to scrape. Of course, we saw it all last year, so what do I know.

[HTTRDynasty]

I'm still not sure what the coaches see in Hood besides veteran leadership.  He should not be ahead of Ioannidis in the rotation IMO.

[Koolblue13]

Cravens was in the right spot, covering that gap if the RB bounced back inside.

 

90, while it would have been great if he could have gotten off the block and made the tackle, wasn't really at fault. Who is that?

 

The OLine looked very stout and disciplined.

 

Compton, with Cravens watching the back side gap and Foster blowing the blocker up in the backfield, being completely untouched, should have been able to work down the line and use the contain held by 90 to attack that edge, instead of watching the RB blow past him.

 

This is exactly what we watched all year last year. Damn it.

[RandyHolt]

4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

This is exactly what we watched all year last year. Damn it.

 

As painful as it is to seeing Compton again not even getting a hand on the ball carrier when unblocked, it is exactly what we need to see if anything is ever going to change. Better now than in week 1. Moar gifs please.

 

Let's face it, a stud play caller like Jay in practice could easily exploit any player he wants on defense. Just keep calling plays to Compton's weaknesses, and force the issue.

 

Staying on topic, I think an improvement in any teams DL, should make its linebackers "better". Well, everyone's except ours, apparently. We have some serious beef on the DL, this has to be our heaviest 3 man line ever. If true, it should mean very stout vs the run, which will lead to teams running wide on us more. Test the scraping and sideline to sideline speed of our insides.

[SkinssRvA]

3 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

As painful as it is to seeing Compton again not even getting a hand on the ball carrier when unblocked, it is exactly what we need to see if anything is ever going to change. Better now than in week 1. Moar gifs please.

 

Let's face it, a stud play caller like Jay in practice could easily exploit any player he wants on defense. Just keep calling plays to Compton's weaknesses, and force the issue.

 

Staying on topic, I think an improvement in any teams DL, should make its linebackers "better". Well, everyone's except ours, apparently. We have some serious beef on the DL, this has to be our heaviest 3 man line ever. If true, it should be mean very stout vs the run, which will lead to teams running wide on us more. Test the scraping and sideline to sideline speed of our insides.

Or in this case, just don't block the man!  He won't make a play anyway.  

 

But yes, back on topic, I believe we will carry 5.  Two new signings, allen, ionnidas, and phil.  As someone above mentioned I don't see Hood factoring in unless we get some injuries. If we carry 6 I'd say Lanier above Hood, too.  

[Master Blaster]

3 hours ago, SkinssRvA said:

^^ Holy **** Will Compton still sucks

 

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Exactly what I got out of that. Foster fills the main gap. The line holds. Everyone else gets pushed down the line, but Compton doesn't get to the edge and it's a successful run.

 

3 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

Yeah, that looked bad.

 

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

awful. Especially with Swearinger coming down to plug the hole Compton can't get away from.

 

Just like last year.

 

1 hour ago, SkinssRvA said:

If Compton is starting over Zach Brown come game 1 I'm going to consider turning off the TV every time we are on defense.  

 

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

 

At least he moved at the snap. Progress. 

 

But I don't think that was his gap. 90 30 24? a few more perhaps all whiffed. We barely got a hand on him - the whole D got burned.

 

I did like seeing our new big boy Phil Taylor way down field. The jersey riding up from his blazing speed making his jersey number look like 00.

 

1 hour ago, SkinssRvA said:

He should have scraped over top and made the play.  Unblocked linebacker, has to make the play.  It's the difference between a 5 yard play and a touchdown.  

 

Not too thrilled with #90 either.  

 

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

 

True, but maybe you are setting unrealistically high expectation bar him, if last year was any measuring stick .  I am bummed that Zach Brown hasn't taken control and been named our new captain. Compton seems closer to a depth guy than leader of the D. Oh well.

 

Damn Phil Taylor opened my eyes. We were all supposed to see the D getting burned, or the back / OL dominating. I saw 99.  We couldn't find a nose if we had a mirror throughout the history of our 3-4. Maybe just maybe after 8 years we have one.  I would really like to see him pitchfork and rag doll the Ravens starting C on the first play of the game.

 

1 hour ago, SkinssRvA said:

His initial fit was fine, I'd like him to press a bit more but he's covering the right gap. His hole is plugged, spencer isn't getting to him on the second level.  He has to scrape and make the play.  His reaction time is below poor.  It was #90s gap from what I can tell.  If you have an untouched linebacker unable to scrape over one gap to make a tackle 5 yards down the field, that's a huge problem.  Doesn't even touch him...

 

edit: and yes, sua with a poor angle as well.  Any one of those three players mentioned does even a tiny bit above what they are doing, and it's a 5 yard gain.  

 

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Cravens was in the right spot, covering that gap if the RB bounced back inside.

 

90, while it would have been great if he could have gotten off the block and made the tackle, wasn't really at fault. Who is that?

 

The OLine looked very stout and disciplined.

 

Compton, with Cravens watching the back side gap and Foster blowing the blocker up in the backfield, being completely untouched, should have been able to work down the line and use the contain held by 90 to attack that edge, instead of watching the RB blow past him.

 

This is exactly what we watched all year last year. Damn it.

 

 

It's almost like you guys have blinders on.  Again glad none of you are evaluators on a real level. 

 

The first clue should have been that these guys are in shorts.  Meaning, no tackling.  So we can start from the premise that they will not take the back down.  This is more evident when you see Hood grab the RB then let him go, and see Swearinger just try to put a hand on the back. 

Secondly, they are in an Under front.  Compton's gap on the snap is strongside B.  When flow takes him weak, he becomes an inside out player as Foster has presumably correctly spilled. 

Not seeing the formation from further away I can't tell if Sua is coming from depth or was lined up in an 8-man box situation.  Either way, Kerrigan presumably correctly forces the player inside.  Not being able to tackle, it is difficult for Compton/Sua to play this correctly as there is naturally a slowing down in the play when you can't tackle.  Correct play on this would be Compton inside out and Sua outside in.  It appears they were either there or very close. 


All that said, Compton is garbage and I would rather see Brown.