The Defensive Line Thread - Who makes the cut?

[SkinssRvA]

23 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's almost like you guys have blinders on.  Again glad none of you are evaluators on a real level. 

 

The first clue should have been that these guys are in shorts.  Meaning, no tackling.  So we can start from the premise that they will not take the back down.  This is more evident when you see Hood grab the RB then let him go, and see Swearinger just try to put a hand on the back. 

Secondly, they are in an Under front.  Compton's gap on the snap is strongside B.  When flow takes him weak, he becomes an inside out player as Foster has presumably correctly spilled. 

Not seeing the formation from further away I can't tell if Sua is coming from depth or was lined up in an 8-man box situation.  Either way, Kerrigan presumably correctly forces the player inside.  Not being able to tackle, it is difficult for Compton/Sua to play this correctly as there is naturally a slowing down in the play when you can't tackle.  Correct play on this would be Compton inside out and Sua outside in.  It appears they were either there or very close. 


All that said, Compton is garbage and I would rather see Brown.

Happy to talk formations/football/X&O, but almost none of what you wrote is correct.  NFL teams never tackle in practice, ever.  They are in thud.  The point of thud is to hit, wrap up, and release. I see none of that going on, not even hood.  And Swearinger putting a hand on his back has nothing to do with them being in shorts.  He's just trying to tap him down.  Probably could make a last ditch swipe at the legs.  

 

Next, gap fits can change, and often do change, based on flow of the play.  Run at Compton?  He would fill and take on the backer.  Run away?  Scrape to the ball, inside out as you say, let's call it scrape/cutback.  Foster has spilled, 90 looks as though he's trying to two gap, when he doesnt have to (not sure what we're coaching).  We have the numbers in the box for him to firmly play outside.  Compton looks, from his initial fit, like he's expecting that to happen.  When it doesn't, he's still unblocked and has to scrape over top to make a 5 yard tackle.  It's day 1 stuff.  

 

Next, we don't need to know the formation, swearinger is dropping for a run fit.  But, I can tell you what the formation is.  It's 21 personnel, ryan grant has been motioned in from the field just outside the TE, Vernon Davis.  The other receiver is wide in the boundary.  So, it's an "I" formation, strong side to the field, and a motioned in Ryan Grant to crack or contain, whatever he's being coached.  Sua is coming from depth. Kerrigan looks as though he went too far up the field, which Moses is happy to let him do.  He dummies him.  Neither Sua nor Compton were close.  Sua probably can make a dive but he wouldn't have made the play.  Compton, just....no.

 

Your final eval is correct though, 51 is garbage.   

[RandyHolt]

32 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

It's almost like you guys have blinders on. 

 

Pass em back 

 

I don't think Hood ever had the RB.  If he did, I doubt he would have decided to turn and chase after him.

[Koolblue13]

3 hours ago, Master Blaster said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's almost like you guys have blinders on.  Again glad none of you are evaluators on a real level. 

 

I guess we should all check with you before forming our opinions. Thanks for pointing out that they were in shorts also, I guess that wasn't visible to the rest of us, so we just assumed they weren't. 

[Diehard Otis]

Since this is the Defensive Line thread, let me just say that I'm cheering for Phil Taylor to complete his comeback with us big time.  He is the kind of Player I can really get behind because:

1) He's Local - from Clinton, MD

2) He's a Veteran - dude's already started 42 games in The NFL

3) He's hungry - after his injury setbacks, the guy wants to make his mark on The Game.  That's some strong internal motivation!

4) Our NG job represents a prime opportunity for him.  It's the perfect scenario of need vs talent & motivation

 

If the man can stay healthy then we may the found the missing link for our Defense.  I know I'll be keeping me eye on this guy.

[carex]

I think six to seven.  I wonder if Lanier and Ionaddis have PS eligibilty though

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, carex said:

I think six to seven.  I wonder if Lanier and Ionaddis have PS eligibilty though

Pretty sure they both do, but it sounds like they may be two of our best.

 

Figure if we're keeping both McReplacements and one of the NTs, Allen, Lanier and Iao round it out. Maybe Hood and a second NT.

[RandyHolt]

I am thinking 5 active on game day, 1 inactive, 1 PS.  Hood a starter on the current depth chart seems to have cemented a spot... he is my inactive candidate though. 

 

All the positive reports on Matt makes me think he will be 7th/PS. Mbu had good reports early, not so much news of late.

 

 

[DC Lumber Co.]

My ideal depth chart would look something like this:

 

DE- Allen, Lanier

NT- Taylor, McGee, Ioannidis

DE- McGee, Ioannidis

Inactive: Ziggy/McClain

PS: Pip & Mbu (2 due to Taylors injury history)

 

Hard to justify 2 NTs on the active roster with McGee and Ioannidis giving you options there should Taylor go down in-game.

 

For the final spot: If you go off the early depth chart, Ziggy gets the nod. If you go off the money allocated, McClain stays. Still curious if cutting McClain or McGee would be cost prohibitive should one of them not pan out?

 

The two NTs kept on the PS are the least likely to be poached by another team, imo. I just don't see us sending Matt or Lanier down to the PS. Especially Lanier after being on the 53 last year (if he's even eligible?) Not to mention him being hand-picked by Doug Williams

[carex]

9 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Pretty sure they both do, but it sounds like they may be two of our best.

 

Figure if we're keeping both McReplacements and one of the NTs, Allen, Lanier and Iao round it out. Maybe Hood and a second NT.

 

I hadn't even heard anything  about them this camp

[RandyHolt]

Rethinking it, I wonder how much stock we should put in the official depth chart. 

 

We have been told all DL are being taught all positions so in a perfect world they are largely interchangeable, and maybe what we see listed are the natural best positions of 3 players - that will do little more than serve as 1st and 10 on the 20 (FATOTT) guys - that's it.  Allen our shiny new toy seemingly having a good camp, is not listed as a starter. I am not sure I like that but whatever.  Hood listed over Allen as a starter means nothing at all if Allen ends up getting twice the snaps. But then why list Hood as a starter, is he the most natural 3-4 LDE on the roster that does little else, or...

 

We all know the 3 in a 3-4 quickly becomes 2 DT for most downs.  It gets no press and little discussion, but I want to know who our starting 4-3 and 4-2-5 defensive tackles are. Who is Diron Talbert and who is Dave Butz.  I feel like it is a fair question since we are talking a majority of the downs, yet it never gets asked by the media. Maybe positions listed on the roster will reflect reality one day. 91 Kerrigan, Ryan LDE/WOLB.

 

[rant] The 3-4 continues to irk me. 65% of the time we are not in the 3-4, and up to 65% (~7 guys out of 11 on every snap) could be out of their natural position. My favorite - Kerrigan covering the flat - QB's must love that.  The beauty of defense used to be, that it was easy to learn (compared to offense at least).  It's no wonder we look so confused pre-snap as much as we do. Our 3-4 hybrid has shown me no reason to believe in it after 7-8 years now.

 

Maybe Taylor is our savior that makes it all work. If he proves to be a viable all down nose, I would like to see him out as a DT in our predominantly used 4-X. If we find an all down NT, shouldn't the hybrid be scrapped? We should have our best players on the field as much as possible, but maintaining a hybrid D and revolving door of players / positions seems at the foundation of our approach. Which will still get exposed vs hurry up, when basing the entire defense on rotating players and roles comes crashing back to reality. We need to find our best 11 at some point, and have them out proactively when we face a QB like Rodgers/Brady.  Did the leagues historically most dominant defenses consistently utilize the most players in multiple roles... I'd bet not. [/rant]

 

[SkinsGuy]

23 hours ago, returnofthefunbunch said:

Just an FYI.  Taylor is 99. Ioannidis is 98.  But he is moving for a 340+ pound guy.

 

Yeah, I couldn't tell if that was a "98" or "99" on the jersey. I just guessed.  

[Koolblue13]

3 hours ago, carex said:

 

I hadn't even heard anything  about them this camp

The coaches have talked up Lanier a lot.

 

Everyone has talked up Ioan. Sounds like he is explosive, bigger, stronger and much faster. Even blowing Schreff up occasionally. Really excited about this kid.

[HTTRDynasty]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

Rethinking it, I wonder how much stock we should put in the official depth chart. 

 

Not much.  I'm sure this would be the response of most coaches regarding their first depth charts:

 

 

[RandyHolt]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Not much.  I'm sure this would be the response of most coaches regarding their first depth charts:

 

 

Yeah, but you know they have ideas already in their head. Truth is, with our hybrid D most all on D can expect significant time, depending on how the game shakes out.

 

But it would also be rude of coaches to list a guy as a starter and then try to stash him on the PS etc. I think the first listed depth chart starters are making the active roster. At this point I presume they are just focused on the bubble guys.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Yeah, but you know they have ideas already in their head. Truth is, with our hybrid D most all on D can expect significant time, depending on how the game shakes out.

 

But it would also be rude of coaches to list a guy as a starter and then try to stash him on the PS etc. I think the first listed depth chart starters are making the active roster. At this point I presume they are just focused on the bubble guys.

 

 

I really think you're over thinking this. It's not really a hybrid, just a 34, that ends up in nickle a lot and nobody is going from 1rst string to PS. If they did, it's just further evidence of how little the DC matters right now.

[CTskin]

Certainly going to be a tricky cut / PS pick. So who do we have: Allen, McGee, McClain, Taylor, Mbu, Francis, Leonidis, Lanier, Pimpkins, Hood

 

We have to assume the Mac daddies will make the squad. They're in year 1 of 5 year deals, the penalty would be brutal to cut them. Allen makes the team. After that, it's completely up for grabs and up to the coaches to spot the talent/trend/potential.

 

Ideally, the other three we'd keep would be Taylor/Mbu, Leonidis, and Lanier. Pimpkins and Francis to the PS. 

 

This would give us 6 competent DLinemen with some pretty good potential. 

[RandyHolt]

35 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I really think you're over thinking this. It's not really a hybrid, just a 34, that ends up in nickle a lot and nobody is going from 1rst string to PS. If they did, it's just further evidence of how little the DC matters right now.

 

Overthinking is what we do best here.

 

With the rotational nature of defenses now, first to PS maybe is not stretch when there are few elite talents, and play is by committee. I don't think it will take much for someone to dethrone Hood, for instance.  Allen or McClain must be damn close. We also keep hearing Ioannidis talked up much more than Hood. Hood is a vet leader and again is likely a lock to make the roster, but I think its only by a thin margin.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Overthinking is what we do best here.

 

With the rotational nature of defenses now, first to PS maybe is not stretch when there are few elite talents, and play is by committee. I don't think it will take much for someone to dethrone Hood, for instance.  Allen or McClain must be damn close. We also keep hearing Ioannidis talked up much more than Hood. Hood is a vet leader and again is likely a lock to make the roster, but I think its only by a thin margin.

I don't think Hood is a lock to  make the roster one bit. I think he's better than the smaller McReplacement, but cost wise easier to cut.

 

I really need to learn more about who the Mcs are.

[Master Blaster]

3 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Our 3-4 hybrid has shown me no reason to believe in it after 7-8 years now.

 

 

 

 

 

To me the biggest change this off-season was Manusky and the supporting staff he brought in. 

 

Getting someone who understands the 3-4 and how to call it makes a big difference. The last two DC's had no clue what they were calling. There's more to it than picking plays like in Madden. 

[RandyHolt]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't think Hood is a lock to  make the roster one bit. I think he's better than the smaller McReplacement, but cost wise easier to cut.

 

I really need to learn more about who the Mcs are.

 

You threw me off when you said "nobody is going from 1rst string to PS" - I think you meant regular season.

 

I am talking as of today, where Hood is listed as first string via the skins official depth chart, which seems pretty darn accurate overall. Except for, as I am theorizing, the DL.

 

Sure, a DC confessed he spent 19 seconds making up his depth chart, but I don't think they are pulling names out of a hat either.

[DC Lumber Co.]

Another explanation for this first depth chart is the coaching staff showing respect to veterans, supporting the mantra that every player must earn his spot on the depth chart. It creates an environment of competition up and down the roster while hopefully motivating younger players to step up and earn starting roles.

 

Much like Ryan Grant getting the majority of looks as the #2 receiver early in camp, I think Hood being placed atop the depth chart is nothing more than the team showing appreciation for his work last season, and the ideology that we reward our own first and foremost. 

 

The more I think about it, the more I think Ziggy is the odd man out. I can't find his contract numbers from when he was re-signed or the length of the deal but one would have to assume it is both less money and duration than McGee and McClain received, no?

 

If what @CTskin says is true about McClain and McGee signing 5 year deals, the money allocated to them and the presumed penalty the team would have to eat in order to cut one of them all but ensures they are kept over Hood.

 

I think Ziggy is ultimately thanked for his services last year, but told that if another team doesn't pick him up to stay in shape as he would be their first call in the event of an injury due to familiarity with the defense. His play last season is no reason to believe he is immune from being cut, and there was no way for the team to predict that Jonathan Allen would fall to us in the draft or it could have impacted their decision to re-sign him in the first place. He gets caught up in the unfortunate number crunch of the NFL, IMO.

 

EDIT: Just discovered an old post by Rich Tandler that pointed out that Ziggy Hood was the worst rated player on our DL last season by PFF. Now, seeing as he played out of position at NT all last season, the rating could be misleading but still doesn't bode well for his chances against McGee & McClain. Sticking with my prediction that he is the odd man out.

[Master Blaster]

If I recall correctly, Hood's deal was one year for the vet minimum with little or no bonus.

 

The Mc's both signed contracts that are easy to get out of this year if I remember right. 

 

I've also been under the presumption that Hood is the odd man out.

[DC Lumber Co.]

17 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

If I recall correctly, Hood's deal was one year for the vet minimum with little or no bonus.

 

The Mc's both signed contracts that are easy to get out of this year if I remember right. 

 

I've also been under the presumption that Hood is the odd man out.

 

Agreed. Thanks for confirming my suspicion on Ziggy's contract value. Barring McGee or McClain flaming out hard, Ziggy isn't a high enough caliber player to warrant keeping an extra lineman. DB and LB will get priority for keeping an extra player over him.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Master Blaster said:

If I recall correctly, Hood's deal was one year for the vet minimum with little or no bonus.

 

The Mc's both signed contracts that are easy to get out of this year if I remember right. 

 

I've also been under the presumption that Hood is the odd man out.

McGee would be 6+ mil dead cap and McLain's is north of 10 mil.  We're stuck with them for the short term at least.  

 

 

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

McGee would be 6+ mil dead cap and McLain's is north of 10 mil.  We're stuck with them for the short term at least.  

 

 

Ouch. When can we dump them?