Conservatism

[B&G]

Liberals seem to be a little confused about just what conservative values are.  Here are a few very general points.

 

First thing is that all conservatives don't believe the exact same things in a political sense.  There are a few principles upon which most believe and I'll try to list them in this post.

 

As a general rule, conservatives favor limited, that is to say smaller, government, low taxation, free trade, a strong national defense, an absolutely color blind society, literal translation of the Constitution, and traditional American values.

 

Conservatives don't believe in tax cuts for the wealthy.  Most believe in a flat tax or a national sales tax over our current graduated system thinking that the "flatter" the system is the more the economy will grow and all Americans, not just the rich, will be better off.  Conservatives are not hostile to the rich and certainly don't begrudge successful people the money they have honestly made.  Nor do conservatives believe the wealthy should somehow be punished for their success.  Quite the opposite, in fact, as we believe that success should be celebrated and emulated

 

Most Conservatives are opposed to Affirmative Action because they believe it is wrong to discriminate against, or give benefits to, anyone based on the color of his/her skin.

 

Conservatives want clean air, water, and a clean planet just as much as liberals do.  Conservatives are unwilling, however, to set back America's standard of living by 100 years to gain some unquantifiable environmental gain.  In this area, Conservatives are moderate rather than radical as some of our liberal friends seem to be.

 

Conservatives generally view the United Nations as an ineffective, anti-American, corrupt and anti-Semitic organization and that's why many of us would not shed a tear if it were to die a quick death.  We feel the UN would like nothing more than to intrude upon American law with a view to chipping away at American sovereignty.  Many conservatives view European nations as hopelessly left of what is prudent in modern political thought and find them extremely naïve and utopian in view.

 

It is true that most conservatives don't like illegal immigrants but only because of that word "illegal".  We believe illegal immigrants hold our laws in contempt, don't pay their fair share of taxes if any at all, all while taking advantage of our schools, hospitals, and our social service programs.  Anti illegal immigrant is, in a larger sense, simply Pro Law and Order.

 

I've heard it said that Conservatives are against the "principle" of the separation of Church and State.  It should be noted that that phrase never appears in our Constitution.  What our Constitution does address is the rule that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."  We do believe and strongly support that rule as we do every single other word in our remarkable, ingenious Constitution.  We don't believe the Constitution is a living document.  It meant what it said when written in the 18th Century and with its ammendments, still means exactly the same thing today.  We believe in a very strict interpretation of the Constitution and deplore judicial activism.

 

One of my liberal acquaintances accused me recent of being anti-gun control and from my point of view, he is wrong.  What I am is a strong believer in the 2nd Ammendment which guarantees the right of all Americans to bear arms.  We are opposed to any law that would infringe upon that sacred right.  As an aside, many conservatives do believe that most of the gun control legislation proposed by liberals is aimed at disarming the American Citizenry, the majority of whom are patriotic, law abiding people.  Additionally, most of the laws offered by the left would be absolutely ignored by criminals and are thus self defeating.

 

I've touched on just a few issues and would be interested in your views from either side of the political spectrum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[StillUnknown]

i made it to "an absolutely color blind society" before laughing

 

what do i win?

[Cooked Crack]

What are traditional American values?

[B&G]

Here are some.

 

1. Individual Freedom 
2. Self-Reliance 
3. Equality of Opportunity 
4. Competition 
5. The American Dream 
6. Hard Work

[Cooked Crack]

How is equality of opportunity a traditional value? FOH with that. This reads like you don't live in the real world.

[jpyaks3]

10 minutes ago, B&G said:

Here are some.

 

1. Individual Freedom 
2. Self-Reliance 
3. Equality of Opportunity 
4. Competition 
5. The American Dream 
6. Hard Work

 I am curious how these are traditional "American values"? 

 

Seems like our history would show that we as a nation haven't even attempted to follow these values (and areas like individual freedom actively prevented individual freedom for certain populations) for the vast majority of our history. 

 

Maybe these are ideals you might like but they don't really match up with any "tradition". 

[bearrock]

If you support literal reading of the constitution, can the government forbid a citizen from owning an automatic machine gun, tank, jet fighter, and/or nuclear weapon?  

[TheGreatBuzz]

Im interested in this thread and will probably participate a lot.  Though I dont see it going well.  I would like to point out the OP said conservative, not GOP.  Everyone please remember that.  

 

I still consider myself a conservative even though i left the GOP a while ago.  The GOP is not conservative, simply politicians.  

 

I agree with most of what the OP says, though not all of it.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I'm down with a lot of conservative values. I think the confusion is that the GOP is supposed to be the Conservative party but what they actually are is shameless corporate shills, leveraging the weaknesses of the dregs of our society and ethiclessly exploiting every opportunity to cheat the system or abuse their power in order to serve their lobbyist masters.

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, B&G said:

Additionally, most of the laws offered by the left would be absolutely ignored by criminals and are thus self defeating.

 

There is a decent bit of research on gun laws that actually reduce gun violence and deaths.

[TheGreatBuzz]

4 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

There is a decent bit of research on gun laws that actually reduce gun violence and deaths.

Without this just becoming the gun control thread, I would point out that there also is research that says the opposite.  It depends on the laws and such.

 

Of course I am an extremely pro gun conservative that is for adding gun control in some aspects.  But also repealing some gun laws in other areas.

[PeterMP]

Just now, TheGreatBuzz said:

Without this just becoming the gun control thread, I would point out that there also is research that says the opposite.  It depends on the laws and such.

 

Of course I am an extremely pro gun conservative that is for adding gun control in some aspects.  But also repealing some gun laws in other areas.

 

Not all gun laws reduce gun violence.  That isn't really surprising, but there are gun laws that do appear to reduce gun violence.

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Not all gun laws reduce gun violence.  That isn't really surprising, but there are gun laws that do appear to reduce gun violence.

Absolutely true.

 

Where the disagreement comes in is correlation vs causation, protecting gun owners rights vs protecting others, and being willing for the Right to enact some gun laws and the Left willing to repeal some gun laws.  But there is another whole thread for that discussion.

[B&G]

I'm hopeful that those who disagree with conservative views will say specifically why and what they believe in rather than simply saying Conservatives are wrong or bad but if the attitude/behavior of liberals on the national scene is any indication of what to expect, that may be asking too much.

We have hundreds of gun laws on the books already, much of them not enforced.  Exactly what gun laws do you credit with reducing gun violence without encroaching upon the right of Americans to bear arms.  Really,  I am interested in knowing.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

1 minute ago, B&G said:

I'm hopeful that those who disagree with conservative views will say specifically why and what they believe in rather than simply saying Conservatives are wrong or bad but if the attitude/behavior of liberals on the national scene is any indication of what to expect, that may be asking too much.

Again, conservatives or the GOP?

 

The attitude and behaviors of liberals on the national scene has nothing on the GOP and it's brainwashed base.

[B&G]

Sacks, the current GOP and Conservatism are almost as different as Liberalism and Conservatism.   The GOP not longer stands for conservatives.  They are like all other politicians...the guiding light of their lives are the ways they believe will perpetuate their careers in office.

[tshile]

45 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Not all gun laws reduce gun violence.  That isn't really surprising, but there are gun laws that do appear to reduce gun violence.

What happens with the other crime statistics?

59 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

I'm down with a lot of conservative values. I think the confusion is that the GOP is supposed to be the Conservative party but what they actually are is shameless corporate shills, leveraging the weaknesses of the dregs of our society and ethiclessly exploiting every opportunity to cheat the system or abuse their power in order to serve their lobbyist masters.

This.

 

There are plenty of conservative values that appeal to me.

 

I can't find them represented at all by the gop anymore.

 

They say the words, but their actions don't align.

[Warhead36]

Conservative main view point is "Government should stay out of the way as much as possible and let people essentially do things on their own." That sounds great and all, but in reality there are people out there who do legitimately need help, help that really only the Government can provide, because private enterprise as has been shown generally looks out for its own interests first over the interests of others(see pharmaceutical companies for example charging the crap out of drugs instead of making them dirt cheap and affordable for everyone).

 

The Constitution SHOULD be open to interpretation. We don't live in 1776 anymore. Yes it's a sacred document, but its also been amended. Remember this is the same Constitution that used to allow slavery and didn't let women vote among other things. Conservatives love clinging to the Constution to support the 2nd amendment but the world is a completely different place now. Guns are like, 1000x more powerful while also being EXTREMELY accessible.

 

The other stuff, I don't think seperates Conservatives that much from Liberals to be honest. Liberals don't necessarily want to punish the rich, but if someone who is incredibly wealthy can pay just a tad bit more(an amount that might seem staggering to us but is really not that much to them)and in turn can help a lot of people, aren't we as a country better for it?

[Fergasun]

Here is something I will put out at this late hour.  Conservatives sometimes, many times, act like anarchists rather than pragmatics because they cling to some values.

 

Comprehensive immigration reform is the perfect example.  Conservatives would prefer to hold up any legislative fix because it is an anathema to.conservative values.  Yet it has been 2 Presidents now and it is easier to rail on the problem from the high horse of conservatism than implement a better system.

 

This is why Senators like John McCain are good for the country, and people like Limbaugh and Savage would rather spread conservative dogma than work on fact and data driven political solutions.

[TradeTheBeal!]

I give the OP credit for putting himself out there.

 

The considerable wisdom of this forum will commence his education.  If he quits, he's a coward.

 

If he doesn't, he will grow and learn and teach for the remainder...until Jesus takes him home.

 

Hang in there, @B&G.

[skinny21]

Yeah, I'm with others that the main problem is that the GOP is a pathetic shade of conservative ideals... and yet many who consider themselves conservative stick with them.  

 

I never quite understood the idea that the Constitution is a dead document.  Were Amendments not a part of the original document?  

 

IMO, the current Healthcare situation is a pretty good microcosm of the Democratic/GOP dichotomy - the ACA has issues that absolutely need to be fixed, the alternative seems to care little for any but the wealthiest Americans... but holds up "conservative values" as their reasoning.  

 

Personally, there are several facets that make me a Democrat rather than a GOPer (and make it hard for me to understand how virtually anyone can support the GOP):

 

Consumer protection - its been proven over and over that most (big) businesses will double down on their bottom line and care little for consumers.  

 

Trickle down economics.

 

Voter suppression. 

 

Healthcare - Republicans offered numerous amendments to the ACA, and much of the bill was rooted in their ideas... yet they've scorched the middle ground.  

 

Gun Control - Personally, I'm far less concerned with the laws than I am with the  intentional push to avoid any studies about the subject.  

 

Ethics - both sides have had issues here, but generally speaking (particularly in recent history), Dems are for transparency.  

 

Balancing the budget - we've all seen the stats on how Republicans leave the budget vs democratic Presidencies.  

 

Entitlements - I can understand the argument here, but similar to voter suppression, I can't see why there's this belief that because something doesn't work to perfection that we should therefore swing far to the other side.  

 

Mainstream conspiracy theories - swiftboat, the birther nonsense, dems will take away all the guns, etc. 

 

Climate change - sure, try to avoid CC policies that hurt the economy... but don't just lay down a blanket denial.  

 

The Press - this is a recent change, but a free press is a bedrock of our democracy... vilifying it does irreparable harm to the country.  

 

Gonna stop here, partly because I recognize that many of these are dem vs repubs as opposed to liberal vs conservative.  

[Warhead36]

When I think of "American values" as uttered by Conservatives I think of your cliche WASP families. If you're gay, transgender, colored, and/or an immigrant, sorry you don't represent good old American conservative values. /sarcasm

[BornaSkinsFan83]

RIP

[skinny21]

As has been said, the most basic problem with this thread is the current GOP iteration hijacking the term conservative.  So, when I talk about 'conservatives', I'm talking about the GOP.  That's not fair to conservatives that disdain the current GOP, but since the GOP is populated by "conservatives" and there's no other Conservative party... well, it is what it is.  

 

Just know that when ire is shown to conservatives on here, you can shrug and say, "that's not me" and we can move on.  For my part, I'll try to avoid using the term when referring to the GOP.  

[BornaSkinsFan83]

All the ****ing I've done over the last year, I can't even remember the last time I used the word conservative (in any type of form.) And honestly I don't really recall anyone using it on here. Defintely not lately.

 

My issues are with Trump, my issues are with the alt-right, my issues are with the GOP. The one major issue i had with conservatives is them bending knee, letting a bunch of hateful reactionary chuckleheaded ****tards completely take over their party and while falling to stand up to them EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. it counted.

 

You know why I don't use the word conservatism anymore? Because conservatism is dead. 

 

RIP