Teen suspended for wearing 'freedom of expression' T-shirt

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Originally posted by PokerPacker

ah, the glory days before "zero tolerance"

I hate to break it to you, but those of you in school have it no differently than other people did growing up.

I realize people like to be individuals and their teen years are the time that most of that comes to the surface, but do it in other social situations: after school, parties, sports practices, etc.

That's the time to let loose and have a good time with your friends without having to worry about the school administration. It just seems so counterproductive to worry so much about what the principal will and will not allow in the few hours you're in school.

One of the problems with junior high and high school students is that they don't see their friends outside of school nearly as much as earlier generations did. They all have cell phones, e-mail, IM, and message boards to keep them parked in front of the computer from the moment they leave school until they go to bed.

[MaddogCT]

How can the Principal of a High School suspend a student for wearing a T-Shirt against drunk driving when the High School is a charter member of S.A.D.D.?

http://www.gahighwaysafety.org/saddga.html

(page down)

The bottom line, if the principal had not broken the law, by risking his life and others by driving drunk, then the T-Shirt would not have been deemed disruptive.

A person in authory need to know when to use it and more importantly when not to use it. Seeing the goal was to have less distractions at school, he failed miserably.

:logo:

[NoCalMike]

Sounds to me more like the Principal is being a bitter **** over this. Likely, hardly any students even found the connection between the shirt and the principal anyway. And the mere fact that the girl is being suspended causes MORE disruption anyway, because now everyone and their mother will be asking why she was suspended.

[Larry]

Originally posted by PokerPacker

i've had enough of this "i'm older than you, therefore all of your ideas are worse than all my ideas." if you don't like my opinion, don't take it. but do not tell me i'm not old enough to formulate a valid opinion, or that i'm not old enough to be allowed to have an opinion. as the saying goes "I may not agree with what you're saying, but i'll defend to the death, your right to say it"

Um, I may have bad news for you. This "I'm older than you" thing, it doesn't end when you're 18, either.

In fact, there are some people (like your parents) for whom it will never end.

May not be fair, but it is reality.

(Note, this does not mean you should STFU and get back in that herd. Idealism is a beautiful thing, and can be the path to Great Things. Idealism combined with the willingness to work towards it (which you've demonstrated with your research) can be a dangerous thing (to the Powers That Be). I suspect that a lot of the folks on this board are cheering for you. But that's not the same thing as betting on you.)

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by Larry

(Note, this does not mean you should STFU and get back in that herd. Idealism is a beautiful thing, and can be the path to Great Things. Idealism combined with the willingness to work towards it (which you've demonstrated with your research) can be a dangerous thing (to the Powers That Be). I suspect that a lot of the folks on this board are cheering for you. But that's not the same thing as betting on you.)

Just cheering for the defeat of Darth Va...er, Kilmer.

[Larry]

Originally posted by PokerPacker

one student got suspended from school when he took a picture of the principal illegally smoking on school property. just because the administration doesn't like you're idea, or because you are "showing up" authorities, doesn't mean they can shut you up.

Now, there you're incorrect. Just because you're "showing up" authorities, doesn't mean they should shut you up. But it doesn't mean they can't.

The distinction between "should" and "can" is one that often leads to a lot of angry discussions on this board. (I think a lot of the heated exchanges on this very thread are because one "side" is arguing "can" and the other "side" is arguing "shouldn't".)

-----

Personal story. When I was about your age, I was arrested in the Smithsonian, because I was looking at the alarm system on one of their exhibits.

The officer shouldn't have arrested me, because what I was doing (looking) isn't illegal. But he did, anyway. (Frankly, I suspect he felt intimidated by my parents, and thought that by arresting me, he could get me away from a public situation that he was losing controll of. I suspect that when he first approaced me, his intention was simply to 'scare the kid'.)

But, after arresting me, someone (his supervisor) pointed out to him that arresting someone who wasn't doing anything illegal might get him sued.

So, he decided that the best way to avoid getting sued was to try to fabricate a story that made me look guilty of something.

Now, net result of all this: He was wrong, and I was right. And I "won", in the end.

OTOH, I've got to tell you: The only reason I don't have a felony record today is because this particular officer was a stupid liar.

And contrairy to the movies, not all cops are dumb.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Kilmer17

If the Principal decides that that shirt is a disruption, than YES. It means you cant wear it.

Why is this so hard to understand. You dont have freedom of expression rights in school. There are limits. ANd the Principal gets to set them.

Dont like it? Go to Private School. But I'll bet that the next school also has rules that need to be followed.

Kilmer is 100% correct. The principal is responsible to be the "judge" of what is acceptable and what isn't. The School board is the "supreme court". The principal has to be sure of himself in this case becasue he's going to need the backing of the school board. I'm guessing that they will back him because the student was warned and blatantly disregarded his warning.

The proper thing for the student and parent to do would be to GO to a school board meeting after the first warning and bring it up then, and get a ruling, rather than playing chicken with the principal.

IMO, the parent is an idiot for encouraging their child to put themself in this situation. After the student was warned, if it were my child, I would tell them don't wear it again. If it were really a huge issue, I'd request a hearing with the principal and school board to get to the bottom of why it was an issue and why it was deemed disruptive.

But to let your child do something that they were told they were going to be suspended for is irresponsible IMO.

[Major Harris]

Originally posted by codeorama

Kilmer is 100% correct. The principal is responsible to be the "judge" of what is acceptable and what isn't. The School board is the "supreme court". The principal has to be sure of himself in this case becasue he's going to need the backing of the school board. I'm guessing that they will back him because the student was warned and blatantly disregarded his warning.

The proper thing for the student and parent to do would be to GO to a school board meeting after the first warning and bring it up then, and get a ruling, rather than playing chicken with the principal.

IMO, the parent is an idiot for encouraging their child to put themself in this situation. After the student was warned, if it were my child, I would tell them don't wear it again. If it were really a huge issue, I'd request a hearing with the principal and school board to get to the bottom of why it was an issue and why it was deemed disruptive.

But to let your child do something that they were told they were going to be suspended for is irresponsible IMO.

i 2nd that

[Mufumonk]

Originally posted by TD_washingtonredskins

I think students should be encouraged to be free-thinkers, but they should also learn early that they need to adhere to societal rules. They can't be taught, directly or indirectly, that they can act without ramifications. It seems to be easier and easier for kids to learn it's OK to do what they please and then, when they are going to be punished for it, cry that they are being persecuted by facists.

I'm under the opinion that it's much more important for them to learn that there are appropriate times and places to express your opinions. It's not like once they get in the "real world" they can go about and do things without repercussions. When this girl grows up and IF she graduates high school and lands a job, the second she wears a t-shirt that attacks or even infers an attack on her boss, she'll have to pay the price. Who is she going to cry to when she's cleaning out her office?

Why must society dictate how people behave? As long as laws aren't being broken, people should be free to be the individual they wish to be without backlash from "society". When self worth is dictated by what's in your bank account, society has gone bad. So using societal rules as a means to prepare students for real life is immoral, and irresponsible. They should be encouraged to promote change, not just toe the company line. This is why "society" is so ****ed up in this day and age.

[Mufumonk]

Originally posted by TD_washingtonredskins

The second thing that makes your argument slightly off the mark is that we're talking about "inside a school" in this case. This isn't like she was walking down the street and the shirt patrol flagged her down. This is an issue within the walls of the school where, whether you like it or not, students have fewer rights.

http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/0526grinch26-ON.html

[Major Harris]

Originally posted by Mufumonk

Why must society dictate how people behave? As long as laws aren't being broken, people should be free to be the individual they wish to be without backlash from "society". When self worth is dictated by what's in your bank account, society has gone bad. So using societal rules as a means to prepare students for real life is immoral, and irresponsible. They should be encouraged to promote change, not just toe the company line. This is why "society" is so ****ed up in this day and age.

so society wasn't so ****ed up back in the day when people respected authority and principals were able to enforce rules w/ out media backlash? i don't get your point.

[Funkyalligator]

People are too soft and thin skinned these days.....for a shirt like that to disrupt a class let alone a school is pathetic and means that the teachers/principle of the school can't handle things anyway....students should be allowed to express themselves as they see fit after all it is the american tax payers whom fund this school system.....if it was private school I'd be like big deal....you inherently lose some freedoms when you/your parents enroll at private school....but public...the principle is on a power trip of his own making and it will ultimately lead to his down fall

[Funkyalligator]

Yes there are two sides to the coin and figures in authority within our public school system are unable to enforce rules because of petty law suits, media backlash and other such things...that is one of the reforms that need to made......I am all for a teacher being able to punish a student that disrespects them verbally/physically....in this case the student was expressing their own opinion

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Funkyalligator

People are too soft and thin skinned these days.....for a shirt like that to disrupt a class let alone a school is pathetic and means that the teachers/principle of the school can't handle things anyway....students should be allowed to express themselves as they see fit after all it is the american tax payers whom fund this school system.....if it was private school I'd be like big deal....you inherently lose some freedoms when you/your parents enroll at private school....but public...the principle is on a power trip of his own making and it will ultimately lead to his down fall

I agree with you to a certain point about the principal. Personally, I would have fired him after the DUI. When you are in that position, there isn't room for mistakes like that.

However, The prinicipal still has to make decisions and one of the biggest problems that I see is that kids and parents today are always pushing the issues. They think they are above the rules. Again, the parent was irresponsible for not handling this situation differently. The principal had NO choice but to suspend the student when she wore the shirt again. Imagine what would happen if ALL students ignored warnings. That's why you end up with the ignorant NO Tolerance policies.

BTW, tax dollars pay so little of public education costs it's a joke to mention it. We get most of our funding from the lottery.

[Kilmer17]

I cant believe this thread is still hopping.

I thought last night night about a better way to express my view on this, and here it is.

Would we all agree that the Principal would have the right to suspend a kid for wearing a shirt with a Swaztika that said "Kill all Jews!"?

Of course we would or should. That establishes the belief that the Principal CAN make the decision to deem something a distraction. Anything after that is a simple matter of SHOULD he for each individual instance.

And while I dont think this shirt BY ITSELF would warrant such a harsh punishment, I absolutely will side the Principal to make that call himself. Each and every time.

Poker, I want to thank you for this thread. You got me so riled up that I talked with the Attourney for the School Boards of Loudoun and Fauquier Counties last night. And he confirmed my view. Students rights can be limited by the school.

[Mufumonk]

Originally posted by Painkiller

Poker, don't take this personally, but your opinion DOES NOT count as much as an adults. Whether you like it or not your ARE only 15 years old. You DO NOT know as much as an adult, whether an educated adult or not, because you have not experienced enough in life yet. Your opinions are based on ideas, not on experience, therefore, NO you aren't old enough to have a valid opinion. You are still a child, but I have no doubt that your a smart kid. When you are older and more life experienced, you will understand. In regards to knowing what is best, age is EVERYTHING in life. Listen to those who are older than you. They have been 15, and they have plenty of good advice to offer.

WWJD

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Kilmer17

Students rights can be limited by the school.

Just to add... At least here in Va, teachers/school administrators, by law, can restrain and use force against students. It is not commonly known, parents are always raising a fuss about someone touching their child etc.. but a students rights are VERY limited when they are in school.

[SkinsNut73]

Originally posted by codeorama

I agree with you to a certain point about the principal. Personally, I would have fired him after the DUI. When you are in that position, there isn't room for mistakes like that.

However, The prinicipal still has to make decisions and one of the biggest problems that I see is that kids and parents today are always pushing the issues. They think they are above the rules. Again, the parent was irresponsible for not handling this situation differently. The principal had NO choice but to suspend the student when she wore the shirt again. Imagine what would happen if ALL students ignored warnings. That's why you end up with the ignorant NO Tolerance policies.

BTW, tax dollars pay so little of public education costs it's a joke to mention it. We get most of our funding from the lottery.

I agree Code. Mom could have handled this a lot better. Of course I would want my child to be able to express their opinions/feelings on a topic. I would want their "voice to be heard"....but also realize there is a respectful way to do it as you mentioned in an earlier reply (going to the board first). It would have been more responsible of mom to teach the kid the right way to handle this situation.

Waaaay back when I was in high school our dress code was boys had to wear a collared shirt, no jeans or sneakers allowed. And there were kids suspended (for one week) if you violated these rules. Seems harsh, but the boundaries were set by the school. Also, it helps to prepare you for the "real world" when you'll deal with boundaries set by your employer.

....how long would this young lady last on the job if she wore a t-shirt which takes a jab at her boss

[codeorama]

Originally posted by SkinsNut73

Also, it helps to prepare you for the "real world" when you'll deal with boundaries set by your employer.

....how long would this young lady last on the job if she wore a t-shirt which takes a jab at her boss

And THIS is the greatest point of all... Isn't school supposed to be about preparing kids for the real world?

[Major Harris]

Originally posted by codeorama

And THIS is the greatest point of all... Isn't school supposed to be about preparing kids for the real world?

SUPPOSED to. but get to know the IEP, and you'll see that it's more about coddling kids. ot, i know.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Originally posted by Mufumonk

Why must society dictate how people behave? As long as laws aren't being broken, people should be free to be the individual they wish to be without backlash from "society". When self worth is dictated by what's in your bank account, society has gone bad. So using societal rules as a means to prepare students for real life is immoral, and irresponsible. They should be encouraged to promote change, not just toe the company line. This is why "society" is so ****ed up in this day and age.

Well my answer is pretty simple: Just because.

The societal backlash is something that you have to live with. Like you said, if you don't break any laws, you only have to deal with odd looks or being looked down upon, that is 100% your choice and right if you choose to do things that don't adhere to these societal rules.

[Joe Sick]

I'm just glad this principal solved all the other problems in schools (low test scores, dropouts, teenage pregnancy, drug use) before he chose this battle to take up.

:doh:

[Kilmer17]

Do you have the stats on his particular school?

[MaddogCT]

What a waste.

He could have taken this situation and turned it into a life lesson for the entire school. The lesson? Decisions you make today can and will affect you for the rest of your life. Most of the time the best lessons are not taught from a book but from life. The principal blew it.

I know that goes against the whole "Follow the rules" "Break the rules and get punished" theme from some, but a lesson on decision making might have been the thing to prevent a teen-pregnancy, or a kid from starting to smoke...etc....

:logo:

[Larry]

I'm thinking, the way the Principal should have stopprd it, (assuming his problem is with the "don't drink and drive" phrase) would be to appear at a pep rally or some such school function, and be presented with a MADD t-shirt or something. A way of saying "Look! I'm not touchy!".

(He should especially do this if, in fact, he is touchy. Frankly, if the kids figure out that the Principal has a hot button, then his ability to manage the school is over.)