Kilmer17 Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Destino If you suspend someone for wearing a t-shirt that reads "don't drink and drive" your reasons should be better then "I am a convicted drunk driver." I agree that the principal can do as she sees fit in her school but parents have a right to ask "why." In this case the answer to the question is unacceptable. A school is supposed to send the right messages to our kids. One of those messages has been "don't drink and drive" for over a decade. Now the schools have to stop delivering these messages becasue faculty at the school may not want to be reminded of their past screw ups? That's absurd. If you can't take it, find a new job. I'd agree with the principal here if the subject matter were different. No ones past is spotless and being mocked by students would be reason to punish them. Sadly in this case the subject matter can not and should not be removed from the school. The principal should swallow his pride or quit. Should have thought of this before he got behind the wheel. That wasnt the Tshirt that got her suspended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by dfitzo53 If the girl isn't trying to make jabs at the principal why would she have worn a shirt so clumsily worded, except for the fact that it spells DUI? Aren't they supposed to PROMOTE creative thinking? Not condemn it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by forbeskin I can see this is going to be like arguing with a brick wall, I'll just stop now. "If the principal deems it so, then it is." That brick wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by E-Dog Night :laugh: :doh: brilliant. You're backup has arrived. With intellectual guns ablazin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 I suspect the national attention of this case will lead to an eventual review of the principal by the school board. Kilmer is correct that it is well within the principal's right to enforce the 'rules' as he/she feels fit. The ramifications of the principal enforcing the rules is the end result though. I suspect that he/she will be fairly criticized for the draconian measures taken. On a side note, we are having a similar problem (an apparent abuse of power) out here in Sacramento where a football coach was fired from his job because one of the trustees (who has been on a crusade to eliminate the coach since he didn't play the guys kid enough 2 years ago) on the school board got another trustee to vote for his removal. It was a 5 member committee and the coach needed 3 votes to keep his job - the votes were split 2-2 with one person abstaining (he was the coach's father and law and by law could not vote). As a result of the firing - 30 other coaches/after hour activities leaders have resigned and the school will more likely be forced to drop sports unless a recall on the school board trustee/members is undertaken and a revote. What is sad about the first case is that a zero tolerance ideal was taken to an extreme. I am all for zero tolerance beliefs - but when they are taken to the extreme that this principal appears to have taken - then I think we have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katomak Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 On it's own, I dont think it's disruptive. But the combination clearly is. The girl was wearing it to disrupt and embarass the Principal. Whether he deserved it or not isnt the issue. Either way, it was disruptive. Disruptive? Disruptive to whom, exactly? Ahh, that's right, the Principal, and isn't that who matters most in this situation? Offfffff course I'm sure you'd think so. Let's take a look at what exactly a school administrator's job is, shall we? An administrator's main lot in life is to educate, to instruct, to train the future leaders of America. Could you please tell me exactly how micromanaging 1 student out of god knows how many in an entire high school falls under any of the aforementioned tenets of a school administrator? Isn't THAT in and of itself a disruption to not only the job that HE has at hand, but the job that that student has? Great leaders lead by example, setting forth high expectations, they see the big picture and envision the future and how to make it better for those they follow. All this Principal is concerned about is himself, his future, the expectations people set forth for HIM. So tell me, Kilmer, which is more disruptive? A t-shirt with a dubious message or an Administrator who is supposed to be leading our children, but is just too narrow-sighted to do so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by dviands chicken or egg? CHICKEN!! fried, with hot sauce, preferably. Or buffalo sauce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Mufumonk Aren't they supposed to PROMOTE creative thinking? Not condemn it? If a kid wears a shirt that says: Nobody In Georgia Gives Energy Repeadedly, Does It Ever! Is that creative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 If a kid wears a shirt that says: Nobody In Georgia Gives Energy Repeadedly, Does It Ever! Is that creative? Now fall in line with the rest of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 That wasnt the Tshirt that got her suspended. It's the one that started it all! A teenager was back in class on May 6 after receiving a one-day suspension for wearing a T-shirt with slogans including “freedom of expression” and “don’t drink and drive” that school administrators considered disruptive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Kilmer, When did DUI become a hate word? C'mon, you are better than this my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by katomak Disruptive? Disruptive to whom, exactly? Ahh, that's right, the Principal, and isn't that who matters most in this situation? Offfffff course I'm sure you'd think so. Let's take a look at what exactly a school administrator's job is, shall we? An administrator's main lot in life is to educate, to instruct, to train the future leaders of America. Could you please tell me exactly how micromanaging 1 student out of god knows how many in an entire high school falls under any of the aforementioned tenets of a school administrator? Isn't THAT in and of itself a disruption to not only the job that HE has at hand, but the job that that student has? Great leaders lead by example, setting forth high expectations, they see the big picture and envision the future and how to make it better for those they follow. All this Principal is concerned about is himself, his future, the expectations people set forth for HIM. So tell me, Kilmer, which is more disruptive? A t-shirt with a dubious message or an Administrator who is supposed to be leading our children, but is just too narrow-sighted to do so? It's disruptive to the teachers trying to teach a class of students all of whom are more interested in this particualr girls T-Shirt. The lesson was taught here. Your own individuality does not supercede the right of the group to succeed. And the PRINCIPAL get's to set the boundries. Dont like it? dont send your kids to public school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Dog Night Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 brilliant. You're backup has arrived. With intellectual guns ablazin' Some posts just don't deserve more than a smilie. I mean really, Kilmer... If by "brick wall" you mean superior intellectual mind, you are correct. :doh1: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by T.E.G. Kilmer, When did DUI become a hate word? C'mon, you are better than this my friend. Use of extreme example needed to show that an arbitrary line in the sand is just that, arbitrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 It's disruptive to the teachers trying to teach a class of students all of whom are more interested in this particualr girls T-Shirt. The lesson was taught here. Your own individuality does not supercede the right of the group to succeed. And the PRINCIPAL get's to set the boundries. Dont like it? dont send your kids to public school. Where does the article say that students were more interested in her tshirt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkyalligator Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Frankly a student should be able to wear whatever they want to school.....her actions here are simply her following her constitutional rights...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Destino It's the one that started it all! A teenager was back in class on May 6 after receiving a one-day suspension for wearing a T-shirt with slogans including “freedom of expression” and “don’t drink and drive” that school administrators considered disruptive. So you agree she has established a pattern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Funkyalligator Frankly a student should be able to wear whatever they want to school.....her actions here are simply her following her constitutional rights...... There are no such rights afforded to students in a public school. It's the reason a kid cant wear a bikini, or a rebel flag, or a shirt that says "death to Professor Smith". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 If the Principal decides that that shirt is a disruption, than YES. It means you cant wear it. Why is this so hard to understand. You dont have freedom of expression rights in school. There are limits. ANd the Principal gets to set them. Dont like it? Go to Private School. But I'll bet that the next school also has rules that need to be followed. you are so very wrong, i bring up this supreme court case in every one of these threads, but once again, here it is. Tinker v. Des Moines School District It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate. This has been the unmistakable holding of this Court for almost 50 years. -Justice Abe Fortas "The Fourteenth Amendment, as now applied to the States, protects the citizen against the State itself and all of its creatures -- Boards of Education not excepted. These have, of course, important, delicate, and highly discretionary functions, but none that they may not perform within the limits of the Bill of Rights. That they are educating the young for citizenship is reason for scrupulous protection of Constitutional freedoms of the individual, if we are not to strangle the free mind at its source and teach youth to discount important principles of our government as mere platitudes." -Justice Jackson The District Court concluded that the action of the school authorities was reasonable because it was based upon their fear of a disturbance from the wearing of the armbands. But, in our system, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression. Any departure from absolute regimentation may cause trouble. Any variation from the majority's opinion may inspire fear. Any word spoken, in class, in the lunchroom, or on the campus, that deviates from the views of another person may start an argument or cause a disturbance. But our Constitution says we must take this risk In order for the State in the person of school officials to justify prohibition of a particular expression of opinion, it must be able to show that its action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint. Certainly where there is no finding and no showing that engaging in the forbidden conduct would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school," the prohibition cannot be sustained. In our system, state-operated schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students in school as well as out of school are "persons" under our Constitution. They are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State. In our system, students may not be regarded as closed-circuit recipients of only that which the State chooses to communicate. They may not be confined to the expression of those sentiments that are officially approved. In the absence of a specific showing of constitutionally valid reasons to regulate their speech, students are entitled to freedom of expression of their views. As Judge Gewin, speaking for the Fifth Circuit, said, school officials cannot suppress "expressions of feelings with which they do not wish to contend." is that enough support? be sure to read all of that last quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkyalligator Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 So what if she has an established pattern.....students being able to express themselves used to be allowed but apparently in this "police state" that isn't allowed.....big deal if someone wears a t-shirt....if people can't wait till after class to look at the t-shirt than they have other problems.....and if it takes them longer than a few seconds to read the t-shirt perhaps the school itself has an eduction problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Funkyalligator and if it takes them longer than a few seconds to read the t-shirt perhaps the school itself has an eduction problem... :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufumonk Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by katomak Let's take a look at what exactly a school administrator's job is, shall we? An administrator's main lot in life is to educate, to instruct, to train the future leaders of America. Could you please tell me exactly how micromanaging 1 student out of god knows how many in an entire high school falls under any of the aforementioned tenets of a school administrator? Isn't THAT in and of itself a disruption to not only the job that HE has at hand, but the job that that student has? To expand on this........shouldn't the principal promote educating his students on the dangers of drinking and driving? In fact, he should be participating in it! The simple fact that he himself, the almighty principal has a history of drinking and driving, you'd think he would want to set a better example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 So you agree she has established a pattern? Sure. But that doesn't change the fact that it began when the principal made a big mistake and punished a student because his pride took a hit at the sight of good advice he himself failed to follow. The principal Kilmer can suspend who ever he wants but the "why" can be and has been called into question. In this case the ENTIRE situation started when the principal punished a student for something he should not have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by PokerPacker you are so very wrong, i bring up this supreme court case in every one of these threads, but once again, here it is. Tinker v. Des Moines School District -Justice Abe Fortas -Justice Jackson is that enough support? be sure to read all of that last quote. Kilmer will say something along the lines of... Originally posted by Kilmer17 If the Principal decides that that shirt is a disruption, than YES. It means you cant wear it. Why is this so hard to understand. You dont have freedom of expression rights in school. There are limits. ANd the Principal gets to set them. Dont like it? Go to Private School. But I'll bet that the next school also has rules that need to be followed. Despite what you just posted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsNut73 Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Destino It's the one that started it all! A teenager was back in class on May 6 after receiving a one-day suspension for wearing a T-shirt with slogans including “freedom of expression” and “don’t drink and drive” that school administrators considered disruptive. I'm going to agree with Kilmer in this case. The shirt said "freedom of expression" AND "don't drink and drive". Wearing this AFTER the school had problems with 40 other students...my take is the student is being disruptive and was taking a shot at the principal. Had the shirt just said "Don't Drink and Drive" then I'm not sure the school would have a leg to stand on...but it seems clear to me there is an attempt to be disruptive on her part...especially considering she was given a warning to not wear the shirt again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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