Teen suspended for wearing 'freedom of expression' T-shirt

[PokerPacker]

Originally posted by dviands

pp, i've read all of your posts in this thread, and i commend you for your research into students' rights, which started in 6th grade. not too many people that age, or even your current age, would take the time to do that.

however, this post reveals your true intentions. it seems to me that you don't research these things to ward off the evil people that are being unjust in the schools. rather, your intentions are to be the biggest prick in the face of authority as possible with out the fear of retribution. you have succeeded.

if you read his posts, he's against anything that gives students rights. he thinks that the principal should control everything we do and say. i was making a challange that wasn't supposed to be taken seriously. if you read my earlier posts, you would have seen that i said if the school respects my rights, i'll respect the school. he does not respect my rights as a student, so i would be forced to give him a hard time.

[PokerPacker]

Originally posted by Painkiller

“They want everyone to fit into a mold, and there’s no room for individuality. These kids are our future, I think they should be treated with a little more respect. Their opinions count. Their thoughts count,” Fletcher said."

Is it just me, or does this statement make anybody else feel uncomfortable? I'm sorry, but I just don't like the idea of high school kids opinions "counting" this much. Get some life experience, and then I'll listen to your opinion. The shirt is one thing, but when we start letting the kids think their opinion "counts" as much as an adults.... we get what we have today. A generation of smart alleck, know-it-alls, that have no respect for anybody or anything. NOT ALL of them mind you, but a lot of them.

how can you expect these students to have respect to authority, when the authority figures don't respect them. respect is a mutual feeling. if someone doesn't respect you, you don't tend to respect them.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Originally posted by Baculus

When it comes down to it, we do have to allow some expression by students. How can we teach about American liberty, but then deny it to students? Are we really teaching them how to understand liberty if schools are made into mini-dictatorships, where the school boards have absolute say over everything, regardless of the student's and their teachers? Isn't this the argument that folks from the Right and Left are concerned about, whether it is free expression through t-shirts or school prayer? Yes, schools are learning evironments, but that does not mean that it should be a learning evironment devoid of anything but the three "R's."

I guess some of us want Soviet-style schools, eh?

Let's not go overboard here. Most of the people here 'expressing their opinions' are probably the product of schools that were just as, if not more, strict as this one.

I think students should be encouraged to be free-thinkers, but they should also learn early that they need to adhere to societal rules. They can't be taught, directly or indirectly, that they can act without ramifications. It seems to be easier and easier for kids to learn it's OK to do what they please and then, when they are going to be punished for it, cry that they are being persecuted by facists.

I'm under the opinion that it's much more important for them to learn that there are appropriate times and places to express your opinions. It's not like once they get in the "real world" they can go about and do things without repercussions. When this girl grows up and IF she graduates high school and lands a job, the second she wears a t-shirt that attacks or even infers an attack on her boss, she'll have to pay the price. Who is she going to cry to when she's cleaning out her office?

[Commander PK]

Originally posted by PokerPacker

how can you expect these students to have respect to authority, when the authority figures don't respect them. respect is a mutual feeling. if someone doesn't respect you, you don't tend to respect them.

What is your definition of the word "respect?" If you mean, your 15 year old opinon counts as much as an adult's, and for the sake of your "rights" you can do whatever you want to do to "express" yourself. You are wrong.

The Principal, an adult with education, and life experience, who earned a position that requires him to make decisions for the good of the whole, individually and collectively....has a duty to foster an enviornment where all can learn. If the shirts had become disruptive to the learning enviornment, then he acted appropriately.

[Major Harris]

Originally posted by PokerPacker

if you read his posts, he's against anything that gives students rights. he thinks that the principal should control everything we do and say. i was making a challange that wasn't supposed to be taken seriously. if you read my earlier posts, you would have seen that i said if the school respects my rights, i'll respect the school. he does not respect my rights as a student, so i would be forced to give him a hard time.

i don't think that he's against anything that gives students rights, i think he just realizes the importance of authority and students' respect for it.

[Commander PK]

Originally posted by TD_washingtonredskins

Let's not go overboard here. Most of the people here 'expressing their opinions' are probably the product of schools that were just as, if not more, strict as this one.

I think students should be encouraged to be free-thinkers, but they should also learn early that they need to adhere to societal rules. They can't be taught, directly or indirectly, that they can act without ramifications. It seems to be easier and easier for kids to learn it's OK to do what they please and then, when they are going to be punished for it, cry that they are being persecuted by facists.

I'm under the opinion that it's much more important for them to learn that there are appropriate times and places to express your opinions. It's not like once they get in the "real world" they can go about and do things without repercussions. When this girl grows up and IF she graduates high school and lands a job, the second she wears a t-shirt that attacks or even infers an attack on her boss, she'll have to pay the price. Who is she going to cry to when she's cleaning out her office?

Exactly.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Originally posted by PokerPacker

how can you expect these students to have respect to authority, when the authority figures don't respect them. respect is a mutual feeling. if someone doesn't respect you, you don't tend to respect them.

I dont think that is true at all. I was taught by my parents (and they are very quality individuals) that I was to respect adults and do what I can to EARN their respect. I'm a standup guy, so more often than not, I quickly gained the respect of the people around me.

Look at it from a sporting point of view (this is a Skins message board):

Should a rookie come into the league and be afforded the same respect as a 10-year veteran? No. He has to earn the respect that a vet has earned by taking his lumps.

The problem with some young'uns these days is that they believe they are entitled to too much too soon.

[Major Harris]

Originally posted by PokerPacker

how can you expect these students to have respect to authority, when the authority figures don't respect them. respect is a mutual feeling. if someone doesn't respect you, you don't tend to respect them.

school should teach life lessons. when you get in to the real world and have a boss, they don't have to earn your respect. but you have to earn theirs. you do this by doing what you are supposed to do, working hard, and yes, taking the occasional order.

yes, there are bad apples, but for the most part, if you are following the rules and doing what you are supposed to do, you will EARN the respect of teachers and principals. respect is a mutual feeling, you are right. but it's not something given to a teenager by an adult. it has to be earned.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by dviands

yes, there are bad apples, but for the most part, if you are following the rules and doing what you are supposed to do, you will EARN the respect of teachers and principals. respect is a mutual feeling, you are right. but it's not something given to a teenager by an adult. it has to be earned.

This kid didn't break any rules. Unless you find a don't drink and drive tshirt offensive. Sounds like a personal issue the principal had.

[PokerPacker]

If they don't listen to my opinion, that's fine, but if they take away my right to have one, that's a completely different story. If they disagree with my opinion, that's alright, but when they start saying that because i'm only fifteen, i'm not old enough to be allowed to have an opinion.

I consider myself a fairly intellectual person (although i am biased because i'm speaking about myself.) age is not everything in life. just because i'm youger than you, doesn't mean my opinions can't have any merit. i've had enough of this "i'm older than you, therefore all of your ideas are worse than all my ideas." if you don't like my opinion, don't take it. but do not tell me i'm not old enough to formulate a valid opinion, or that i'm not old enough to be allowed to have an opinion. as the saying goes "I may not agree with what you're saying, but i'll defend to the death, your right to say it"

[Commander PK]

Originally posted by PokerPacker

If they don't listen to my opinion, that's fine, but if they take away my right to have one, that's a completely different story. If they disagree with my opinion, that's alright, but when they start saying that because i'm only fifteen, i'm not old enough to be allowed to have an opinion.

I consider myself a fairly intellectual person (although i am biased because i'm speaking about myself.) age is not everything in life. just because i'm youger than you, doesn't mean my opinions can't have any merit. i've had enough of this "i'm older than you, therefore all of your ideas are worse than all my ideas." if you don't like my opinion, don't take it. but do not tell me i'm not old enough to formulate a valid opinion, or that i'm not old enough to be allowed to have an opinion. as the saying goes "I may not agree with what you're saying, but i'll defend to the death, your right to say it"

Poker, don't take this personally, but your opinion DOES NOT count as much as an adults. Whether you like it or not your ARE only 15 years old. You DO NOT know as much as an adult, whether an educated adult or not, because you have not experienced enough in life yet. Your opinions are based on ideas, not on experience, therefore, NO you aren't old enough to have a valid opinion. You are still a child, but I have no doubt that your a smart kid. When you are older and more life experienced, you will understand. In regards to knowing what is best, age is EVERYTHING in life. Listen to those who are older than you. They have been 15, and they have plenty of good advice to offer.

[PokerPacker]

Originally posted by dviands

school should teach life lessons. when you get in to the real world and have a boss, they don't have to earn your respect. but you have to earn theirs. you do this by doing what you are supposed to do, working hard, and yes, taking the occasional order.

yes, there are bad apples, but for the most part, if you are following the rules and doing what you are supposed to do, you will EARN the respect of teachers and principals. respect is a mutual feeling, you are right. but it's not something given to a teenager by an adult. it has to be earned.

i cannot think of a single person in my school outside of the adminisration that respects my principal. not even the teachers do. she even has enemies up in the school board. she has never kept a single job in her life for more than five years.

my history teacher, whom i have great respect for, wanted to take time off to take care of his sick mother this year, who had alzeimers. she said that if he took time off, he'd be fired. his mom died later this year. he is too big of a person to talk badly about her, but you can tell he dislikes her, when you hear what she does to him, but he will not say anything bad about her personally.

not a single teacher has said a good word about her, because she does not have respect for people.

[PokerPacker]

Originally posted by Painkiller

Poker, don't take this personally, but your opinion DOES NOT count as much as an adults. Whether you like it or not your ARE only 15 years old. You DO NOT know as much as an adult, whether an educated adult or not, because you have not experienced enough in life yet. Your opinions are based on ideas, not on experience, therefore, NO you aren't old enough to have a valid opinion. You are still a child, but I have no doubt that your a smart kid. When you are older and more life experienced, you will understand. In regards to knowing what is best, age is EVERYTHING in life. Listen to those who are older than you. They have been 15, and they have plenty of good advice to offer.

i don't care if it "counts" as much, but when you take away my right to have an opinion, that's when i get mad

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Originally posted by PokerPacker

i don't care if it "counts" as much, but when you take away my right to have an opinion, that's when i get mad

First of all, no one is taking anyone's right away to have an opinion. Have whatever opinions you'd like, that's fine. As long as you don't intend to harm people (ie. show up a teacher or administrator in front of other students, teachers, and administrators as it appears this girl may have done) then you probably will be fine.

The second thing that makes your argument slightly off the mark is that we're talking about "inside a school" in this case. This isn't like she was walking down the street and the shirt patrol flagged her down. This is an issue within the walls of the school where, whether you like it or not, students have fewer rights.

You do seem like a bright kid and no one should tell you what or how to think, you're right. However, sometimes kids and young adults have to know their place and no when to speak their mind and when to bite their tongue. When they might be showing up an authority figure at school, it's not good judgement.

Also, none of what I feel about this girl in this situation can be put on you. I don't have any problem with anyone of any age telling me when I'm wrong. I realize that I make plenty of mistakes and that I'm wrong probably just as often as I'm right.

[PokerPacker]

the school, contrary to what many believe, is more than a place to learn what they teach you,

"'The vigilant protection of constitutional freedoms is nowhere more vital than in the community of American schools.' Shelton v. Tucker, [364 U.S. 479,] at 487. The classroom is peculiarly the 'marketplace of ideas.' The Nation's future depends upon leaders trained through wide exposure to that robust exchange of ideas which discovers truth 'out of a multitude of tongues, [rather] than through any kind of authoritative selection.'"

-Mr. Justice Brennen

Students have the right to express their oppinions. one student got suspended from school when he took a picture of the principal illegally smoking on school property. just because the administration doesn't like you're idea, or because you are "showing up" authorities, doesn't mean they can shut you up.

[Major Harris]

Originally posted by PokerPacker

i cannot think of a single person in my school outside of the adminisration that respects my principal. not even the teachers do. she even has enemies up in the school board. she has never kept a single job in her life for more than five years.

my history teacher, whom i have great respect for, wanted to take time off to take care of his sick mother this year, who had alzeimers. she said that if he took time off, he'd be fired. his mom died later this year. he is too big of a person to talk badly about her, but you can tell he dislikes her, when you hear what she does to him, but he will not say anything bad about her personally.

not a single teacher has said a good word about her, because she does not have respect for people.

well, maybe she is one of the bad apples. my mother taught me a lesson i'll never forget when i was your age. i had a history teacher that disrespected everyone in his path. we butted heads often, and i finally got tired of it. i wanted her to intervene, as i'd seen many other parents do. she told me that i would have to deal with people that i don't necessarily like my whole life. i would have to handle the situation the best i could. it was one of the best lessons she ever taught me.

[Major Harris]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

This kid didn't break any rules. Unless you find a don't drink and drive tshirt offensive. Sounds like a personal issue the principal had.

i think the d.u.i. shirt directed at the principal was over the line. if you don't then we can agree to disagree.

also, as someone else pointed out, the writer is ambiguous. we don't know everything that was written on the shirt(s) that this girl wore on more than one occasion after being directed not to.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by dviands

i think the d.u.i. shirt directed at the principal was over the line. if you don't then we can agree to disagree.

also, as someone else pointed out, the writer is ambiguous. we don't know everything that was written on the shirt(s) that this girl wore on more than one occasion after being directed not to.

mmmmm, i agree, the dui shirt was offensive...

however, the drunk driving shirt that started this whole thing? i'm not buying it. i think the principal overreacted on that one...

i think my buddy packer poker will agree that kids won't respect or kotow to an authority figure if that authority figure is perceived as weak. So when that principal snapped at the sight of an anti drunk driving shirt, the kids at the school perceived it as a weakness and the floodgates opened.

[NACSkins]

Originally posted by Destino

We used to wear "Big Johnson" shirts to school. :laugh:

[NACSkins]

[Major Harris]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

mmmmm, i agree, the dui shirt was offensive...

however, the drunk driving shirt that started this whole thing? i'm not buying it. i think the principal overreacted on that one...

i think my buddy packer poker will agree that kids won't respect or kotow to an authority figure if that authority figure is perceived as weak. So when that principal snapped at the sight of an anti drunk driving shirt, the kids at the school perceived it as a weakness and the floodgates opened.

the article says though that controversial t-shirts have been an issue at the school. we can't know for sure that this particular incident was or was not simply the straw the broke the camels back. also, the girl was not suspended the first time she wore a t-shirt in question.

i totally agree about weak authority figures. i see that a lot.

[Major Harris]

Originally posted by NACSkins

i'll have cream cheese on a plain bagel.

[PokerPacker]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

mmmmm, i agree, the dui shirt was offensive...

however, the drunk driving shirt that started this whole thing? i'm not buying it. i think the principal overreacted on that one...

i think my buddy packer poker will agree that kids won't respect or kotow to an authority figure if that authority figure is perceived as weak. So when that principal snapped at the sight of an anti drunk driving shirt, the kids at the school perceived it as a weakness and the floodgates opened.

i personally don't attack just because there is a weakness, but there are cetainly quite a few sharks that smell the chum

[PCS]

I remember in H.S and a friend of mine actually got away with wearing a tshirt with a red, white, and blue version of this around.

[PokerPacker]

ah, the glory days before "zero tolerance"