herrmag Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Grades: Owner ~ A GM ~ C- Human Being ~ F I know, I know, this poll has nothing to do with him as a person. I chose the second answer on the poll. However, I know too many people that work at Fed Ex or with the organization to not comment on what an awful person he can be. I know he's a businessman, and in some situations, it helps to be a merciless prick. However, he has done quite a few things (even publicly) that I cannot simply overlook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cphil006 Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 I think Snyder needs to learn to delegate assignments. I don;t know how much input he has on who to sign and what not, or if he just does the business and finance end of it. By paying what we have been paying to some of our FAs is ridiculous. I think most of the blame shoud be on Vinny Cerrato, his "raquet ball buddy". Once Vinny is fired and we have a true GM making personell decisions, I think the benefits of Snyder will truly show.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 I am on the fence. I celebrate the signings, but speak poorly of him when they don't work out. I know I'm being irrational about the free agent signings, but I'm beginning to think teams should build through the draft. Too much money spent on guys that aren't here anymore or were too old to get it done when they came. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurman Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Don't hate him, as a fan I just think he's been an overall negative. As a fan I have an investment in the games played, not the franchise. I don't care about how much money he makes by owning the team, I simply care how well the team performs on the field. The coaches, the scouts, the football people -- those are his choices. Their assistants are picked by people that are his choices. Free agency, the draft, all personnel evaluations -- the buck stops with him. Winning and losing, the only thing I care about, lie at his feet ultimately. It doesn't matter that I agree or even disagree with these choices when they're made. Its OK that I was wrong, it is not OK for him to be. He'll learn, he _is_ learning. It will be better. But everything that has happened since he's arrived is on him. He must do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 11, 2005 Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 Originally posted by herrmag Grades: Owner ~ A GM ~ C- Human Being ~ F I know, I know, this poll has nothing to do with him as a person. I chose the second answer on the poll. However, I know too many people that work at Fed Ex or with the organization to not comment on what an awful person he can be. I know he's a businessman, and in some situations, it helps to be a merciless prick. However, he has done quite a few things (even publicly) that I cannot simply overlook. All we know of Snyder is Snyder as an owner. Unless you know something I don't, none of us here have met the man to judge him as a person. Terminating employees who were reported to be UNWILLING to transform from type setter to computer hardly resonates as a horrible thing. Even if that rumor is false, simply shedding the organization of moles and going with people you brought in who owe you their jobs is something I think most of us would do as businessmen. If, however, you are of the view all people who are in business are rotten individuals, then, yes, Snyder is a horrible human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Snyder has made his share of mistakes but the guy doesn't give up. I have to give him credit for continuing to try to bring the glory years back to DC. I believe that bringing Gibbs back saved him in many fans eyes. Everything he did up to that point was deemed over zealous and pompous by fans and media alike. He still has that reputation, but winning will cure that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 11, 2005 Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 Originally posted by Lurman Don't hate him, as a fan I just think he's been an overall negative. As a fan I have an investment in the games played, not the franchise. I don't care about how much money he makes by owning the team, I simply care how well the team performs on the field. The coaches, the scouts, the football people -- those are his choices. Their assistants are picked by people that are his choices. Free agency, the draft, all personnel evaluations -- the buck stops with him. Winning and losing, the only thing I care about, lie at his feet ultimately. It doesn't matter that I agree or even disagree with these choices when they're made. Its OK that I was wrong, it is not OK for him to be. He'll learn, he _is_ learning. It will be better. But everything that has happened since he's arrived is on him. He must do better. Schottenheimer. Spurrier. Gibbs. Those are Snyder's three hirings at the head coaching position. Find flaw in the logic that brought any of the three in. Their failure can't possibly be on Snyder. He's the owner. His job is to make an educated, thoughtful decision based firmly in football knowledge. He's done that. After that, it falls to the individual to perform in some small way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimReefa Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 He hasn't been a great owner because he has made mistakes. But he wants, more than anything else, to put a winning team on the field and Lombardis in the trophy case. Watching Angelos, a truly terrible owner, trying to pinch every penny humanly possible, I can tell you that desire to win is the most important trait an owner can have. Everything else he needs he'll learn from experience. He stil needs to check those knee-jerk reactions, but good times could be on their way, for him and for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 If you're position is he gets an A for effort but has failed, then, you need to decide if you're positive on him because of the effort or negative on him because of the failure. Should be pretty simple really. This is where I am right now. I give him the A for effort, but our record is what it is. This is the first season since Snyder took over the team that our record has actually improved, and we're 6-10. The reason for this, in my humble opinion, is our coaching turnover. It's absolutely killed us over these past five years. And the biggest, worst and most damaging coaching decision was Schottenheimer. Hiring him. Firing him. The whole shabang. And yes, I blame Snyder for that. In 99 and 2000 we were a big-name offense-first, vertical pass team. In 01 we became a blue-collar, ball control, defense-oriented, field position team. In 02 an 03 we became a pass first, second and third team. Free agents from one year don't mesh with schemes of the next. Defensive coordinators come and go. Drafts are rendered useless from year to year. You can't build a team like that. Now, I think Snyder hit a home run landing Gibbs. And hopefully Gibbs will stick around for while, keep Williams for awhile, and build cohesive team out of this mess. But it is a mess. And a lot of that's on Snyder. In my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins4eva Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Originally posted by iheartskins I think choice four about captures my feelings on the issue. Dan has his heart in the right place, and I think it'd be foolish to think otherwise given how clear he's made it that he absolutely loves the Redskins. He's had his share of failings, as listed above, along with others. At times, I think he loves this team too much which has created in him a proufound sense of urgency for winning. In turn, this has led to several poor impatient and capricious decisions. Along with this he carries a dangerous pride, teetering toward hubris, from his enormous success in business which has caused him, at least in part, to have a buy now/success now mentality. These two factors are largely to blame for some of his failings to this point. I do think he's getting better, I just hope that we can get things together as a franchise (which I think, in part, we have) before Mr. Snyder leads us to ruin. He brings negative Karma--bad vibes, which, I hope, and believe will be undone by Joe Gibb's presence, kind of like the way Yoda's presence canceled out the effect of the dark Jedi's force in Return of the Jedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The extremist Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 IMO, until he puts together a team that can start competing and actually BEAT THE COWGIRLS on occasion, and not have them laughing at us every year, Danny is a terrible owner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurman Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Originally posted by Art Schottenheimer. Spurrier. Gibbs. Those are Snyder's three hirings at the head coaching position. Find flaw in the logic that brought any of the three in. Their failure can't possibly be on Snyder. He's the owner. His job is to make an educated, thoughtful decision based firmly in football knowledge. He's done that. After that, it falls to the individual to perform in some small way. His job, from my perspective, is to make the team better. To make decisions that work, not decisions that make sense to me. I'm just a fan, not qualified to make those choices. Though certainly qualified to decide based on those things I've invested in (winning, losing) whether they were a success or failure. Delegating all of the work required to make the team better, as he'd done with Marty, doesn't absolve him of the blame. Just as it won't deny him the credit if (when :-)) Joe makes us a winner. He picked the wrong guy. He should have found the right person or persons to fit those responsibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 11, 2005 Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 Originally posted by Henry This is where I am right now. I give him the A for effort, but our record is what it is. This is the first season since Snyder took over the team that our record has actually improved, and we're 6-10. The reason for this, in my humble opinion, is our coaching turnover. It's absolutely killed us over these past five years. And the biggest, worst and most damaging coaching decision was Schottenheimer. Hiring him. Firing him. The whole shabang. In 99 and 2000 we were a big-name offense-first, vertical pass team. In 01 we became a blue-collar, ball control, defense-oriented, field position team. In 02 an 03 we became a pass first, second and third team. Free agents from one year don't mesh with schemes of the next. Defensive coordinators come and go. Drafts are rendered useless from year to year. You can't build a team like that. Now, I think Snyder hit a home run landing Gibbs. And hopefully Gibbs will stick around for while, keep Williams for awhile, and build cohesive team out of this mess. But it is a mess. And a lot of that's on Snyder. In my opinion. Henry, I completely agree with you the root of our problems is due to the coaching turnover. I completely am in line with your thinking that as this team has changed coaches and changed philosophies it explains why we have a hard time hitting on players later in the draft. We have nothing to build on so a project drafted for one system might not fit in another. You are EXACTLY right that free agents found to fill the needs of one system may not fit the next, so you address those needs and you seem to constantly be starting over. This is ABSOLUTELY right. The question is, how much blame does Snyder deserve for the ultimate problem of coaching turnover? I'd have liked to have seen Norv survive the year, but, even as THE largest Norv supporter in the world for SEVEN years, even I saw the end that day. I've never seen a team QUIT on a coach like that team quit on Norv. Had he survived the year, his run was essentially over. Marty is where most of Snyder's faults can be laid in the coaching turnover category. Marty was a smart football hire. I thought Marty could turn things around here. In fact, even as I realized how awful we were with him, I thought in a few years of doing it his way and finding guys who'd do it his way, we'd wind up winning. But, the limited success Marty WAS able to achieve here ONLY came after a near complete player revolt on him. For Marty to have been successful, he'd have to cut most of the team and start all over. Further, the offense was so atrocious by design it required a gutting. Cam Cameron would have allowed Marty to survive here. Jimmy Raye wouldn't. I still think it was Marty's coaching failures that really got him fired and not his performance or willingness to yield power as a GM, but, here is where you can point and say Snyder was to blame for the Marty termination. I just wonder if we did a poll whether a majority of fans would be supportive of the move and therefore realize the problem was with Marty more than Snyder. Spurrier quit. So stung was Snyder by reports of his impatience he was going to allow a failure like Spurrier to remain. I was with him on this. I thought he HAD to do that even though I felt a terrible dread about the season. Then Spurrier quit and we got Gibbs. If Snyder fires Gibbs, despite how Gibbs failed as a coach this year by his own admission, it will be hard to defend Snyder. I just think the circumstances of the failures previously were not on Snyder so much as on the individual and the manner by which things happened kind of fit where the team needed to go AT the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLSKINSFAN Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Originally posted by GrimReefa He hasn't been a great owner because he has made mistakes. But he wants, more than anything else, to put a winning team on the field and Lombardis in the trophy case. Watching Angelos, a truly terrible owner, trying to pinch every penny humanly possible, I can tell you that desire to win is the most important trait an owner can have. Everything else he needs he'll learn from experience. He stil needs to check those knee-jerk reactions, but good times could be on their way, for him and for us. I couldn't have said it better myself, I agree with this post 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfbovey Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Becoming a good owner, should hire a real GM though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 The team has not achieved a level of continuity under Snyder, for which he is at least partially to blame. This is why I place him under the good category, instead of the great category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herrmag Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Originally posted by Art All we know of Snyder is Snyder as an owner. Unless you know something I don't, none of us here have met the man to judge him as a person. Terminating employees who were reported to be UNWILLING to transform from type setter to computer hardly resonates as a horrible thing. Even if that rumor is false, simply shedding the organization of moles and going with people you brought in who owe you their jobs is something I think most of us would do as businessmen. If, however, you are of the view all people who are in business are rotten individuals, then, yes, Snyder is a horrible human being. Not at all, I'm in business myself. And the people from whom I have heard these stories still are with the organization. But I do understand your point, and I'll keep my unsubstantiated opinions of the man to myself in the future. But damn it man, nobody was bashing him, and it made me feel all funny inside:laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herrmag Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Originally posted by Art Schottenheimer. Spurrier. Gibbs. Those are Snyder's three hirings at the head coaching position. Find flaw in the logic that brought any of the three in. Their failure can't possibly be on Snyder. He's the owner. His job is to make an educated, thoughtful decision based firmly in football knowledge. He's done that. After that, it falls to the individual to perform in some small way. I'm no real huge fan of Schottenheimer, but firing him after the first year was a mistake. That is undeniable, especially considering who he was replaced with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 11, 2005 Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 Originally posted by Lurman His job, from my perspective, is to make the team better. To make decisions that work, not decisions that make sense to me. I'm just a fan, not qualified to make those choices. Though certainly qualified to decide based on those things I've invested in (winning, losing) whether they were a success or failure. Delegating all of the work required to make the team better, as he'd done with Marty, doesn't absolve him of the blame. Just as it won't deny him the credit if (when :-)) Joe makes us a winner. He picked the wrong guy. He should have found the right person or persons to fit those responsibilities. I think you give an owner greater responsibility than I give an owner. Perhaps that's why I'm more pleased with Snyder than some. I don't think it's his job to make the team better. I think it's his job to provide his team what is required to make it better. And to listen to the people he hires to make the team better by giving them what they wish. As the owner, Snyder can't design game plans for the team. He can't be considered a failure when the team is outschemed. He can't be considered a failure when the team gets personal fouls. He's the owner. He makes educated decisions on who will help the team get better and lets that person run his team on the field. Whatever happens with Gibbs, pro or con, doesn't impact on the intelligence or stupidity of the choice. Unless Snyder refuses to provide Gibbs what he says he needs to succeed the owner succeeds. I just don't see how you can essentially blame Snyder for failings he can not have anything to do with, just as giving him props for those things would be wrong. Snyder, as all owners, have a role. You seem to view that role as a Buddist might, in that Snyder is everything. I think he's just the owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 11, 2005 Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 Originally posted by herrmag I'm no real huge fan of Schottenheimer, but firing him after the first year was a mistake. That is undeniable, especially considering who he was replaced with. Oh, I think it's anything but undeniable. Marty lost that football team. Players revolted on him, unifying behind the theme of not paying attention to him. You can do that once. You can't do it every year. To succeed you'd have had to implode 90 percent of that team. It would have worked, sure, in time. Maybe by this time next year we'd have seen the real results. Maybe not. It took me six years and 13 games before I knew Norv was done here. It took me five games to know Marty was. As we get further from his time here we may come to remember him more fondly than we did at the time. But, I'd estimate 90 percent of fans here at that time absolutely wanted the changes Snyder suggested or Marty fired. It wasn't undeniable then at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 11, 2005 Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 Originally posted by herrmag Not at all, I'm in business myself. And the people from whom I have heard these stories still are with the organization. But I do understand your point, and I'll keep my unsubstantiated opinions of the man to myself in the future. But damn it man, nobody was bashing him, and it made me feel all funny inside:laugh: Fair enough . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number5 Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Originally posted by Art Why would I be kidding. Our owner, for example, is far superior to yours. Our owner makes money, but spends it. He provides his football people EXACTLY what they tell him they need and he goes out and gets it. Can you imagine Snyder, as an example, waiting for YEARS to acquire a receiver in Philly which EVERYONE knew was necessary? And now that you see how much Owens has improved your explosiveness, you just have to be MORE angry at your owner for not allowing anything to be done in this area for so long. Snyder is far and away the best owner I've ever seen in any pro sport because he balances the willingness to provide his football people what they tell them he needs to succeed with a willingness to step back and allow them to control the situation. He doesn't become the actual GM like Jones or defacto GM like George. I can't think of a better mix. I honestly don't see how Synder is better than Lurie. Lurie has turned a bad team with an even worse field with an even worse future into what many are saying is the "BEST ORGANIZATION IN THE LEAGUE". We spend money, save money, and we produce.......our merchandise is among the top selling in the league, we are one of the top draws as far as television and playing away. While Sydner blows money on wasted talent and over the hill neva woulda shouldas......Lurie INVESTS......INVESTS money in future stars like Lito, Sheldon, Greg and soon Westbrook. I would rather have an owner who let's Football people make Football decisions rather than an owner who picks his players from a deck of Topps cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins4eva Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 The Washington Post article the other day, entitled something along the lines of Gibbs promises few changes, gives me the greatest hope for the future: look at the teams that have been successful, and are successful right now: Pitt, Indy, Philly, Ne England--what's the common thread? They have all had continuity and they all have direction, and by God, we are beginnning to right the ship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Art, Most will pass blame on him simply because he is the only Redskin that's been here consistently for the past 5 years.:laugh: His role is what it is, but as an owner he will be the scapegoat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Originally posted by Art I think you give an owner greater responsibility than I give an owner. Perhaps that's why I'm more pleased with Snyder than some. I don't think it's his job to make the team better. I think it's his job to provide his team what is required to make it better. And to listen to the people he hires to make the team better by giving them what they wish. As the owner, Snyder can't design game plans for the team. He can't be considered a failure when the team is outschemed. He can't be considered a failure when the team gets personal fouls. He's the owner. He makes educated decisions on who will help the team get better and lets that person run his team on the field. Whatever happens with Gibbs, pro or con, doesn't impact on the intelligence or stupidity of the choice. Unless Snyder refuses to provide Gibbs what he says he needs to succeed the owner succeeds. I just don't see how you can essentially blame Snyder for failings he can not have anything to do with, just as giving him props for those things would be wrong. Snyder, as all owners, have a role. You seem to view that role as a Buddist might, in that Snyder is everything. I think he's just the owner. So Art, are you basically saying that Snyder's roles are limited to (a) providing capital and ( overseeing back office operations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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