Art Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I'm a huge believer in making judgements when something happens and not applying hindsight to modify the judgement later. So, I agree with everyone that it is a bad trade for us to have to give up the No. 2 pick for Portis in the Bailey deal. Nothing Portis can do, ever, can change that. If Portis rushes for 2,000 yards four times for us, it won't change that. Today, right now, it's a bad deal and today is when the judgement matters. That said, what is the level of performance you'd need from Portis to not really care about the bad trade that got him? If he does rush for 1,700 yards with 18 TDs next year, are you going to worry over the No. 2 pick? A lot of moves this team has made have been good moves when we've made them, but then we look back and see a lack of success so we apply new judgements, ignoring some facts, and say it was bad. A prime example is the Stephen Davis contract. This was a wonderful deal for the team AND the player. It was a legitimate compromise that protected the team against a one-year wonder possibility and it protected the player if he could build on his success. The deal was crafted to ASSURE neither the player nor the team had to be stuck in a bad deal and that a renegotiation would be required. Yet, many ignorantly say it was a bad contract when it played out exactly how we all knew it would and mostly approved of it when it was signed. Some moves we make end up successfully and we are happy about the moves, but, because of a lack of other success with the team we apply hindsight that ignores the facts to our views. The 2000 offseason is a perfect example of this. We finished 1999 as the No. 2 offense and No. 30 defense. We spend free agent dollars on defense and largely leave the offense alone. We improve to No. 4 on defense. A remarkable success. We start 6-2 before injuries on offense killed us, yet in hindsight, everyone likes to pretend we did a bad thing in 2000 and that we lost chemistry. Some moves just suck, though we are for them when they are made. Like Stubblefield. Portis, I think, has the potential to be the first move we are largely against that works out so that we apply a different measure to it in a few years. What level of performance is required to make that happen, or, at least to make it no longer matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Art What level of performance is required to make that happen, or, at least to make it no longer matter? keep doing what he has been Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 So, for you, JB, just 1,550 or so with 14 or so TDs and a 5.5 yard average. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I'd be happy with say 1200 and 10 TD, to be honest. I rather lose the pic getting a proven player even if it's overspending a little. Better yet, I'd be happy with a real running game of any sort after the past two seasons. While it would have been nice to have gotten Portis in a straight up trade, I'm not freaked over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Art So, for you, JB, just 1,550 or so with 14 or so TDs and a 5.5 yard average. . yep, that equals or surpasses what all of our RB's did last year throw in 200 to 300 receiving yards as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Two things would tell me good deal in hindsight. 1. A Super Bowl Victory with Portis at least a candidate as MVP for the team for the year. That's our goal after all. 2. No hindsight what if's with that second pick. Looking back three or four years from now at a Pro Bowler we could of picked up with that pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 Kevin, Portis can be on IR the rest of his career and if we win the Super Bowl it's all going to be good . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishtw Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I'll agree with JB, but will add that I will "forget " that this was a bad trade and paying MB all that money wasn't worth it if we win the SB with both of them as starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I agree with Art I am not against throwing the 2nd round pick to get a player of this caliber. He is a top 5 maybe top 3 back in the NFL and he is only 22 years old Think about this if Champ and Portis both sign a 7 year deal, at the end Portis is still not even going to be 30 and champ will be pushing 32 or 33. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posse81 Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I can't put numbers on it. If we win the SB or at least go deep into the playoffs and we look and back say, "we couldn't have made it there without him" it will be a good deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubledeuce Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 If Coach Gibbs can rely on Portis for the following, then some other aspect of the Redskin system (like the D) will be blamed if they fail: - 1440 yards (90 yds/game x 16 games). - Key contributor to third down conversion efficiency. - Go to guy in the postseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by doubledeuce - Key contributor to third down conversion efficiency. I guess you didn't hear about his 9.1 ypc average on 3rd downs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 If we want to be a great team, we have to make sacrifices. Exibit A: our draft picks. In all technicality this could be our draft this year: first round: Sean Taylor Second Round: Clinton Portis Third Round: Mark Brunell and fifth: whatever whatever, blah blah Point is, this is what we asked for. A championship team. We are well on the way to getting that, so how we get there is irrelevant. ----------------------------- 0-16, 19-0, skins fan till i die!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankRizzo Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I'm more upset over moving the 3rd for Brunell. I like the Portis deal...I'd like to have the 2nd round pick, but what are you going to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 For me if Portis simpy continues his current production and stays relatively healthy I'd say we came out on the better end of things. The effect Portis would have on the rest of our offense(assuming he continues the same production) would be incredible. He will make the rest of the offense better. Champ never did that for our D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Stay healthy. If we'd been offered this kind of deal for Edgerrin James after his 2nd year, we'd be thinking we were getting the steal of the century. And in hindsight, we would've been wrong. With everyone talking about a 13m+ signing bonus, we'd better hope this guy has a decent shelf life. If he lasts another 4 years or so, it's a great deal. If he blows out an ACL and we're stuck carrying him on the roster until we can swallow the monster cap hit, I think we're screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubledeuce Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by jbooma I guess you didn't hear about his 9.1 ypc average on 3rd downs JB, I witnessed it here in Denver! I'm on board with this trade (steal), with or without the 2nd rounder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Jumbo Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I'm not really sure how to answer this. I guess I don't really care WHO we get and who we DON'T get, as long as we win. If we can do it with Portis, so be it. If we can do it without Portis, so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinMac Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I really think you are looking at this backwards, Art. Today isn't when the the judgment matters. What matters is what transpires on the field, so no one will know whether it is a good trade or not for several years. How can you possibly pass judgment on something before knowing the outcome? What if Portis breaks his leg week one and never plays again? Or, what if he goes on to be the All-Time leading rusher in the NFL? Either way, you don't know what will happen as of today, so saying that today is all that matters leaves me scratching my head. Any judgments made on this trade now are simply predictions as to what people think will happen in the future. They aren't judgments at all. You don't convict a man of a crime before you have all the facts. Likewise, you can't determine the value of a trade until all the results are in. A lot of people hate this trade, but I guarandangtee you that if Bailey suffers a career ending injury this upcoming season, EVERYONE will be glad we made the trade. You just don't know, and until then it's all guesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Just get us to the playoffs. That's something Bailey hadn't been able to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Hog Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Arguably, you might think that I'm setting my standards low, but hear me out: a) sacrificing the second round pick will be acceptable provided Clinton continues having 1300-1500 yard seasons. makes a significant difference for our club when it comes to division games. Everybody is well aware of the problems we've had in our division. Hell, the last time we won the division was when we had a winning record in the NFC East. The East is all about grinding out yards in November and December. Portis immediately allows us to compete with Dallas and Philly and legitimately go into their homes and win games. Thus, for the time being, if he can lead us to a division title and be a key contributor in reestablishing our competitiveness within the NFC East, I'll say the second rounder was worth it. It's all about progression. Let's remember that we are coming off a 5-11 year, and that we are going to have alot of new faces that need to come together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesome Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 It's all about wins Art. If Portis rushes for 2,000 yards and scores 30 touchdowns next year, yet the Redskins still can't get off the schnide b/c of a poor defense, then I'll still think it's a bad trade. If Portis rushes for 800 yards and 2 touchdowns, and the Skins make the playoffs, then I'll think it was great deal. I can't really assign merit to a trade in terms of individual performance. It's gotta to improve the team and make them more competitive in terms of wins and losses. Of course, Portis will improve the offense, but it seems that the deal will have a negative effect on the defense. Whether that plays out in terms of what kind of success the teamhas next year, we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RySkins Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 Giving up the pick doesn't bother me at all. Getting a player of Portis's caliber thrills me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 If that 2nd round pick turns out to be a bust for the Broncos, THEN I'll be happy. If that player turns out to be a star then I would have to see Portis as the Super Bowl MVP. Worst case scenario: That 2nd round pick is named Super Bowl MVP in a Skins-Broncos Super Bowl. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Full Monty Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 If we win a Super Bowl in within the next 2 years and if he's a big part of it. Then he's worth every penny and the #2. robert kraft gave up a #1 draft pick to acquire bottomed-out retread Parcells disciple Bill "run out of Cleveland on a rail" Bellicheck. Pay any price for the prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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