2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Skinsinparadise]

Got to listening to Paulsen and Hoffman's last podcast and Hoffman's 106.7 interview just now.  Those two are more optimistic about the o line as some stressed  I've missed there recent podcasts so just caught up with it.  So this is post Ravens practices.

 

A.  They can see improvement and clearly they aren't as pessmisitc as some other media folk about the O line but they didn't come off relaxed about it either.  Hoffman actually characterized it a few minutes ago on 106.7 as he expects it to be a roller coaster.  Where he believes it will be fine one week and then another week not, where we wonder what happened?  I am actually in synch with Hoffman on that, that's been my guess, too.  

 

B.  Andre Jones they believe makes the roster.   They don't think Henry does

 

C.  Hoffman wondered if both Ridgeway and Mathis make it considering they are the same type  of player

 

D.  You can see how tallented the Ravens offensive ine is, their backup lineman would start for some other teams.   He was impressed with who they fared against our D line aside from their left guard against Jonathan Allen. 

 

E.  He highlighted Morgan Moses for the Ravens for looking really good, shut down Montez Sweat.  Paulsen goes but that was a tough matchup for Sweat since Moses is one of the better tackles in the league. 

 

F.  Brain Robinson struggled with pass protect.  Chris Rodriguez was really good with pass protect.

 

G.  Hoffman is clearly concerned the most about Wylie as to the unit -- that came through in his inteview on 106.7 and to some extent on the podcast. 

 

H.  Jahan looked really good, crisp routes, showed up well

 

I.  Sam handled the bltzes well, composed, hoffman hyped his personality-calm

 

J.  Overall B performances against the Ravens

 

K.  Stromberg fared well

 

L.  Ravens showed more sophistication from their offense than the Commanders did in those practices -- Paulsen is surprised the Ravens showed that much.   

Edited August 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, SpacePenguin said:

 

Of course you're a big fan of FB/TE, every season since Bates was drafted you make preseason posts about how he's going to break out this year....like a blocking TE is gonna suddenly catch 80 balls and put up 8 TDs.

 

It's pretty funny. I look forward to it in a seasonal way.

I'm glad you enjoy it and have such fun trolling my posts. Yours are always very well thought out and enlightening. 

 

Too bad Apke is out for the year, huh? 

 

BTW, nobody is suggesting Bates catches 80 balls, so maybe make up a more realistic goal for a blocking TE.

[Koolblue13]

Armeh is going to have a huge year too! 9 rushes, 21 yards, 11 catches 34 yards 6 TDs. 

 

Try and stop him.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Funny to hear Logan Paulsen coming off with a man crush on Morgan Moses.  Especially in light of Paulsen in another podcast mentioning that Wylie struggles mightly against Montez Sweat.    And in this latest podcast excused Sweats struggles against Moses considering Moses is a top flight RT.

 

 

 

[wit33]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Funny to hear Logan Paulsen coming off with a man crush on Morgan Moses.  Especially in light of Paulsen in another podcast mentioning that Wylie struggles mightly against Montez Sweat.    And in this latest podcast excused Sweats struggles against Moses considering Moses is a top flight RT.

 

 

 

Moses > Kerrigan 

 

Just a little fun, don’t get too serious 🧐 

Edited August 20, 2023 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Moses > Kerrigan 

 

Just a little fun, don’t get too serious 🧐 

 

I wouldn't go that far.

 

But the two have three things in common.

 

A. High character

B. Super durable

C.  Consistent players

 

Speaking of Kerrigan, its gone a little below the radar but I get the vibe that he's a great assistant coach including reading about his work with Andre Jones.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[SpacePenguin]

Yeah, getting rid of Moses was probably the strangest personnel move that RonCrew has made. The Trent situation was such a mess from the last staff that I can't really put that one on them, but Moses was an above average tackle whose only negative was a proclivity for untimely penalties.

 

That RT spot has been a mess ever since, at least pass pro wise....and it's not as if the ravens gave Moses a monster deal or anything. When it comes to a lot of the regime's mistakes, I can at least understand the reasoning behind them, but not this one.

 

Maybe he didn't have a firm enough handshake, or didn't salute hard enough?

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by SpacePenguin

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

D.  You can see how tallented the Ravens offensive ine is, their backup lineman would start for some other teams.   He was impressed with who they fared against our D line aside from their left guard against Jonathan Allen. 

Hopefully our scouts and coaches got a good look at the backend of their O’line depth chart last week and are ready when they try to sneak someone through waivers!

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Sam Cosmi is becoming one of my favorite guys. Let’s hope he stays healthy. 
 

I will also say that I am enjoying Howell’s accountability. Blames himself for the sack against the Browns and says he’s got to do a better job helping out his OL. These little things matter.

Edited August 20, 2023 by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

[MartinC]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Not many football players major in physics …

19 minutes ago, SpacePenguin said:

Yeah, getting rid of Moses was probably the strangest personnel move that RonCrew has made. The Trent situation was such a mess from the last staff that I can't really put that one on them, but Moses was an above average tackle whose only negative was a proclivity for untimely penalties.

 

That RT spot has been a mess ever since, at least pass pro wise....and it's not as if the ravens gave Moses a monster deal or anything. When it comes to a lot of the regime's mistakes, I can at least understand the reasoning behind them, but not this one.

 

Maybe he didn't have a firm enough handshake, or didn't salute hard enough?

 

I agreed with the move at the time. He was one of the weaker links in our line at the time (imagine that!) and we wanted to go younger. We drafted Cosmi high to replace him - it just didn’t work out. 
 

With hindsight though we would have been better off keeping him if he would have signed the same kind of contracts here as he has elsewhere (which is far from certain!)

[Conn]

Man imagine if we could be lucky enough to draft and develop a reliable, decade-long above average starting RT like Moses? Some other franchises get all the luck. 

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, SpacePenguin said:

Yeah, getting rid of Moses was probably the strangest personnel move that RonCrew has made. The Trent situation was such a mess from the last staff that I can't really put that one on them, but Moses was an above average tackle whose only negative was a proclivity for untimely penalties.

 

That RT spot has been a mess ever since, at least pass pro wise....and it's not as if the ravens gave Moses a monster deal or anything. When it comes to a lot of the regime's mistakes, I can at least understand the reasoning behind them, but not this one.

 

Maybe he didn't have a firm enough handshake, or didn't salute hard enough?

 

 

If I played with Rivera's rules.  The same rules he used to defend himself for not digging Herbert.  He explained that Herbert wasn't a consensus loved prospect so that's a good reason for him likewise not digging the player.  So in other words, don't fault Ron for things that aren't super obvious to the rest of the league.

 

So on that front, I'd run with picking a weakside LB in the first round let alone doing it and passing over a franchise type LT in Darrisaw and releasing Moses.  Those would fit his super obvious criteria. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

Just now, Conn said:

Man imagine if we could be lucky enough to draft and develop a reliable, decade-long above average starting RT like Moses? Some other franchises get all the luck. 

We used to do it all the time at LT! Samuels and then Williams. We had two decades with All Pros at LT - and largely wasted their careers. 
 

Jacoby (undrafted free agent) was replaced by Lachey then we had four or five years of journeymen until Samuels was drafted in 2000. So All Pros at LT for about 35 years out of the last 40 odd.

[Koolblue13]

I miss the days that we only complained about Casey Rabach.

[SpacePenguin]

18 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Not many football players major in physics …

I agreed with the move at the time. He was one of the weaker links in our line at the time (imagine that!) and we wanted to go younger. We drafted Cosmi high to replace him - it just didn’t work out. 
 

With hindsight though we would have been better off keeping him if he would have signed the same kind of contracts here as he has elsewhere (which is far from certain!)

 

I suppose it may have worked out if they had prioritized retaining some of the other talent on the OL, aside from Roullier (whose injury streak was both unfortunate and unpredictable).

 

I feel like Scherff bailing for the most money possible was very easy to see coming, though....and this crew has been much to eager to cast away NFL starting caliber talent across the board in lieu of athletically talented but raw projects, taking it for granted that they can be coached up.

 

I guess that's the reason Coach-centric front offices rarely produce better than mediocre results....

 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by SpacePenguin

[XxSpearheadxX]

2 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

Don't forget Sellers came out of college and was in such demand, he had to go to the CFL for a few years before he found a home 

 Sellers didn't go to college, he was courted by many schools but his criminal record and terrible grades stopped him from being signed. He did one year at a junior college then was drafted in the first round of the CFL.  He played defensive end in the CFL 

[MartinC]

1 minute ago, SpacePenguin said:

 

I suppose it may have worked out if they had prioritized retaining some of the other talent on the OL, aside from Roullier (whose injury streak was both unfortunate and unpredictable).

 

I feel like Scherff bailing for the most money possible was very easy to see coming, though....and this crew has been much to eager to cast away NFL starting caliber talent across the board in lieu of athletically talented but raw projects, taking it for granted that they can be coached up.

 

I suppose that's the reason Coach-centric front offices rarely produce better than mediocre results....

 

 

Yeah - I agreed with the logic and decisions to allow both Moses and Schreff to leave (different reasons). The problem has been the failure to adequately replace them.

 

Our O’line was a strength as recently as 2018 which was the last year Williams started for us. He was at LT, Flowers LG, Moses RT, Schreff RG and Roullier C.

[wit33]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I wouldn't go that far.

 

But the two have three things in common.

 

A. High character

B. Super durable

C.  Consistent players

 

Speaking of Kerrigan, its gone a little below the radar but I get the vibe that he's a great assistant coach including reading about his work with Andre Jones.

Nothing but positive things about Kerrigan coming from players and it never seems like lip service. It seems from very afar he has an ability to be a guide and be of consistent value to the players. 
 

Wonder what Kerrigans coaching aspirations are?

[DWinzit]

6 minutes ago, SpacePenguin said:

 

I suppose it may have worked out if they had prioritized retaining some of the other talent on the OL, aside from Roullier (whose injury streak was both unfortunate and unpredictable).

 

I feel like Scherff bailing for the most money possible was very easy to see coming, though....and this crew has been much to eager to cast away NFL starting caliber talent across the board in lieu of athletically talented but raw projects, taking it for granted that they can be coached up.

 

I guess that's the reason Coach-centric front offices rarely produce better than mediocre results....

 

They didn't to bring in talent via FA or draft for a number of years, that was the big fail.

 

I agree it was a belief the OL coach could coach up what limited talent you could bring in on the cheap. 

 

Yes the Coach-centric FO was a big part of the issue here, especially when they are mainly from the defensive side.

[The Rook]

32 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

I always wondered how the Wonderlic Test was done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook

[Skinsinparadise]

Keim on Sheehan's podcast

 

A.  He really likes Howell.  Made so much progress in the time he's been here.  He's seen Qbs here who do not have it.  And Howell does have the skills and has flashed the ability that so many other QBs here over the years have not.  His one pause is how long does it take for Howell.  He's young so it can take time.

 

B.  He thinks the players are cool with Bieniemy, no drama, etc. 

 

C.  He's uncertain about the offensive line.  Wylie needs to play better than he did against the Browns.   He thinks they are run blocking well.  The questions for him are 4 new starters in the position with no stud in the mix.   Can they match up to the pass rushers in the division?   He simply doesn't know if they will be good enough.   He thinks to win they need to be at least an average O line but he's not sure if they get there.

 

D. Brain Robinson has stood out as a pass catcher, running routes, etc.

 

E. Dyami has had a good camp

 

F. St. Juste had a big camp.    Andre Jones and Darrick Forrest with good camps.

 

Sheehan asked him about the ESPN ceiling-floor article.  Keim said he didn't pick the records but he picked the O line as the X factor.  He doesn't have much doubts about Howell, he has more questions about the O line.  Then he recalled they were supposed to pick non-QB X factor.  But based on his description, it felt to me that he still would have gone O line. 

 

Keim factors that the schedule is tougher this year than last.   But he said the other teams in the division have an even harder schedule.  

 

He thinks this is Rivera's best camp.  He credits that to some extent to Bieniemy.  It's more physical, urgent, more intense.  He thinks it will help them avoid the early struggles.

 

Sheehan and Keim both agree that the major question remains did they do enough in the off season to upgrade their O line.

 

Keim went back to his thought that his good vibes about Howell remind him of Kirk.  They are both smart QBs who work their butt off and are tough.  They both have quick twitch arm talent.

 

And for the O line isn't that bad police  who like to give me and others a hard time for being negative about the unit.  I'll say again on the aggregate, I continue to hear more negative than positive about the unit.  I don't get the warm and fuzzies about the O line, even Logan Paulsen's of late more positive spins come off to me lukewarm at best and his co-host doesn't seem to buy into the unit just yet.  

 

But, using that same approach of summarizing aggregate takes -- as to Howell, its really good stuff.  And It makes me feel positive about his chances. I've felt that way for a long time but everything I am hearing is good. 

 

We can fix the O line next off season if need be.  As we know much harder to find the QB.  So overall I am feeling good.   I want Rivera gone but that's also part of my feel good vibe -- we can shoot higher.   And I mean that with no bitterness.  That's with positive energy driving that thought. 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[SpacePenguin]

2 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Yeah - I agreed with the logic and decisions to allow both Moses and Schreff to leave (different reasons). The problem has been the failure to adequately replace them.

 

Our O’line was a strength as recently as 2018 which was the last year Williams started for us. He was at LT, Flowers LG, Moses RT, Schreff RG and Roullier C.

 

Yeah, to give them credit, I think Leno has been a good find and Cosmi will likely be a solid guard if healthy.

 

It sure has been a frustrating offense to watch though. So many times, teams would just run stunts and the pocket would collapse so quickly that it was impossible to run a vertical offense, not that it stopped Turner from trying.

 

 

[DWinzit]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He thinks this is Rivera's best camp.  He credits that to some extent to Bieniemy.  It's more physical, urgent, more intense.  He thinks it will help them avoid the early struggles.

How can't you credit EB with a better camp...seems like a Captain Obvious statement 

 

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Sheehan and Keim both agree that the major question remains did they do enough in the off season to upgrade their O line.

 

The answer is - no they didn't. But we hope and pray for no injuries, quick improvement by the youth's up front and maybe, just maybe, they bring in some reinforcement with a higher grade than a dude named Monteiro.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

How can't you credit EB with a better camp...seems like a Captain Obvious statement 

 

The answer is - no they didn't. But we hope and pray for no injuries, quick improvement by the youth's up front and maybe, just maybe, they bring in some reinforcement with a higher grade than a dude named Monteiro.

 

If Wylie struggles at RT, I hope they'd consider him at LG.  I think the best shot for better play would be Lucas at RT, Wylie at LG.  I still think good D lines will give them fits even with that move but I'd guess it would be better.

 

I think Hoffman, who is ironically Logan Paulsen's podcast partner summarized his guess perfectly to mine -- up and down week to week depending on the matchup.