2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[wit33]

4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Bates is confident in inexperienced quarterback Sam Howell as well. He sang Howell’s praises Sunday.

“I feel like since the day Sam got here, everyone knew what he was about and what he could bring to this team and what he was able to do in the past and what he’s shown to do here. Sam’s been doing a great job, and I’m excited to see what he does for us this year.”

Bates believes he himself is still growing, becoming a more fluid route runner, striving to improve each season.

One thing for certain, Bates is glad the first preseason game is Friday (in Cleveland).

“I mean, we’ve been going up against our defense now for three weeks, and I think everyone’s ready to hit someone else…It really gets fun when you start going up against opponents, and you’re really working together as a complete team trying to accomplish a goal of winning.”

Fascinated to see if EB does some cool stuff to feature Bate’s blocking in the run game and sprinkle in some catches. Wonder if he’s a strong candidate to get a major uptick in offensive snaps.
 

Admittedly, have very little feel for his receiving potential, but he’s an absolute game changer when run blocking. 

[kfrankie]

So, without reading through that past 2 weeks of posts, how does Sam Howell actually look?  Keep hearing different things in the media, anywhere from "he's struggling" to he's doing everyone he needs to do.  Guess there's not much chance anyone on here really knows either, but figured i'd take a shot.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Well, I’m no pro, but he was my favorite ILB prospect. So if a layman can see it, a pro should. 
 

The others missed as well, but I’m not concerned with them.

 

Yeah that's my issue with it.  I am no professional of course.  I wouldn't want some idiot like me calling shots in the FO  so i am not being presumptous or arrogant about take this dude or that dude like I know better. 

 

The operative point to me is when certain weak spots remain weak.   And I would make different calls at those spots and would call them out in real time among others here including you -- it makes me think this FO isn't anything special.   If they rocked at building the roster where they made moves that made us shake our heads but they come out on top anyway, then they'd foster trust with me. 

 

This isn't criticizing this FO in hindsight, we've hit most of the criticisms in real time. Its not a bad FO IMO.  But they make too many mistakes and lack a killer instinct IMO.  C plus - B minus work.

 

The good news is the roster is strong at many spots.    I think Howell has a strong fighting chance.  IMO if they indeed replace this FO next year, you don't need to overhaul the roster.  A smart GM with a sense of urgency and a good holisitc view of roster building, can turn this into a consistent winner pretty fast IMO.

 

Heck if Shoen-Daboll can turn the Giants around in one season.  The new regime (if Ron is gone as i'd expect) can do it even easier IMO because this roster is better than the one Schoen inherited.

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, kfrankie said:

So, without reading through that past 2 weeks of posts, how does Sam Howell actually look?  Keep hearing different things in the media, anywhere from "he's struggling" to he's doing everyone he needs to do.  Guess there's not much chance anyone on here really knows either, but figured i'd take a shot.

 

I trust Keim the most.  So centering on his takes.

 

A. Up and down camp

B.  The coaches really like him because he works hard, learns from his mistakes, tough-doesn't get down when he makes mistakes or has a bad day.  Mentally tough.

C.  He seems to hint don't be shocked if this season is up and down for Howell but the bottom line is for him to develop

D.  Keim overall leans on optimism about Howell.

 

So on the average, he is learning as he goes and they like his makeup a lot.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Fascinated to see if EB does some cool stuff to feature Bate’s blocking in the run game and sprinkle in some catches. Wonder if he’s a strong candidate to get a major uptick in offensive snaps.
 

Admittedly, have very little feel for his receiving potential, but he’s an absolute game changer when run blocking. 

 

I saw Bates lined up wide in the practice I watched, that shocked me a bit because he's not the fastest dude.

 

If I had to come up with a theme about Bieniemy's offense based on what I watched and hearing others talk about the practices they watched.  Lots of passes to RBs and heavy TE personell.

[Voice_of_Reason]

15 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

This isn't what you argued last year when we signed Wentz....in fact, you talked about how infrequently he got hurt and how he was generally pretty healthy throughout his career. Then he went out and got hurt for us. Many of us were down on the Wentz signing because he was damaged goods and injury prone. 

Actually, everything I said before still holds true.  Injury prone is one thing, and if he had gotten a leg or back injury, that would have been true, his injury history would have been a factor.   He smacked his hand on a helmet and broke a finger.  That's not injury prone.  That's bad luck. 

 

The reason I said Wentz wasn't really injury prone is he had gone 2 full years without missing a game, and his ACL and Back injuries appeared to be behind him.  

 

His injury wasn't the issue anyway.  The issue is it turned out he couldn't hit the ocean while sitting in a rowboat 30 miles off the coast of Iceland. 

 

I have no issue saying I was wrong on Wentz in that I thought he would be able to play up to the level he played at in 2021.  He didn't.  Shrug.  I was wrong. He was damaged good between the ears and that was that.  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

6 minutes ago, kfrankie said:

So, without reading through that past 2 weeks of posts, how does Sam Howell actually look?  Keep hearing different things in the media, anywhere from "he's struggling" to he's doing everyone he needs to do.  Guess there's not much chance anyone on here really knows either, but figured i'd take a shot.

 

From tidbits I can't get a clear impression either. So it's not just you.

 

He's supposedly passing up short stuff on purpose, to see if routes past that are viable against this or that coverage. I'm unclear if that was a goal of only a specific day, or more of a theme for this training camp as a whole or what. He was trying not to "take what the defense gives" and be a checkdown charlie AKA Kirk Cousins in past training camps. Who knows if that affects his play during the season positively or negatively.

 

Supposedly Howell's footwork fades as practice goes on, but sometimes he's been able to keep focus and have good footwork despite being tired. As he's only been working on footwork for about a calendar year, I imagine this will be an ongoing thing. By footwork it's a different issue than what plagued Haskins, which was also colossally slow feet. Howell is trying to marry the dropback with the timing of the routes. Howell's foot speed besides that is good.

 

Some are saying he can be late on his reads at times, but it's unclear if there's a reason for being late (working on looking off the D, or lack of familiarity with route speed of a WR, or whatever).

 

Everyone seems to be saying there will be lots of misdirection, screens, RPO's, etc etc but no mention of how good or bad Howell is looking at in some of these more complicated motions. Which I take to mean nobody is seeing an issue with his executing it.

[redskinss]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Yeah that's my issue with it.  I am no professional of course.  I wouldn't want some idiot like me calling shots in the FO  so i am not being presumptous or arrogant about take this dude or that dude like I know better. 

 

The operative point to me is when certain weak spots remain weak.   And I would make different calls at those spots and would call them out in real time among others here including you -- it makes me think this FO isn't anything special.   If they rocked at building the roster where they made moves that made us shake our heads but they come out on top anyway, then they'd foster trust with me. 

 

This isn't criticizing this FO in hindsight, we've hit most of the criticisms in real time. Its not a bad FO IMO.  But they make too many mistakes and lack a killer instinct IMO.  C plus - B minus work.

All fair points but what about the theory that we may be ahead of the curve in using the 5-1-5 defense and our staff just doesn't value the linebacker position the way some teams do.

So far our defense has been good enough to give them a little benefit of the doubt and if they take the next step this year they can be forgiven for not valuing linebackers if they're dominant. 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I trust Keim the most.  So centering on his takes.

 

A. Up and down camp

B.  The coaches really like him because he works hard, learns from his mistakes, tough-doesn't get down when he makes mistakes or has a bad day.  Mentally tough.

C.  He seems to hint don't be shocked if this season is up and down for Howell but the bottom line is for him to develop

D.  Keim overall leans on optimism about Howell.

 

So on the average, he is learning as he goes and they like his makeup a lot.

 

I think Howell is a gamer, I think he's one of those guys that show his best body of work when the real bullets are flying. 

 

The plays he made in his one start and the composure he showed (especially after the ugly pick) after having been 3rd string all year and gotten almost no reps has me pretty excited for him this season.

I think he'll make mistakes, there's not much doubt about that but they'll be mixed in with enough great plays that our offense will be competitive. 

 

I'm more Worried about Bienemy than I am about Howell but only because I see things in Howell I really like and Bienemy to me is a complete unknown.

 

[Daniel.redskins]

23 minutes ago, kfrankie said:

So, without reading through that past 2 weeks of posts, how does Sam Howell actually look?  Keep hearing different things in the media, anywhere from "he's struggling" to he's doing everyone he needs to do.  Guess there's not much chance anyone on here really knows either, but figured i'd take a shot.

I don't really care about camp.  I remember in 2020 when Haskins was reportedly having an excellent camp.  Apparently Dak is having a terrible camp, but if I was a betting man I would bet that Dak has a strong season.  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Just now, Daniel.redskins said:

I don't really care about camp.  I remember in 2020 when Haskins was reportedly having an excellent camp.  Apparently Dak is having a terrible camp, but if I was a betting man I would bet that Dak has a strong season.  

 

If I recall, Haskins reportedly was playing well until he was named the starter, and then he stopped trying or coming to facilities on time. So whenever that happened, the local beatwriters did mention he was playing worse.

 

I've read that either Micah Parsons is going to with Defensive Player of the Year, or the offensive line in Dallas is in real trouble. Future HoFer Zach Martin is still not attending camp due to a contract dispute, so when he returns it'll help. But the rest of them are looking suspect. Cowboys defense should be pretty good, so maybe Dak will play better against average opponents?

 

Honestly sounds kind of like our situation.

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, redskinss said:

All fair points but what about the theory that we may be ahead of the curve in using the 5-1-5 defense and our staff just doesn't value the linebacker position the way some teams do.

So far our defense has been good enough to give them a little benefit of the doubt and if they take the next step this year they can be forgiven for not valuing linebackers if they're dominant. 

 

 

I am not hung up on the LB spot.  i am hung up on for a FO that doesn't like to take chances and thereby miss opportunities that are evident to some of us in real time -- they need to then excel with their conservative execution and they don't IMO.   But they again do a decent job.  They make some good calls for certain.   Just not enough of them IMO to compete with the big boy teams. 

 

But I know you hate the negative so here's the positive for me.

 

A.  Harris' profile is that he's a killer good owner.

B.  Dan is gone so that alone finally gives us a chance

C.  The fans are fired up again

D.  The defense is likely going to be great.  And deep too aside from LB

E.  Brian Robinson looks poised for a breakout season

F.  Howell has teased enough where there is legit hope that he can be the guy.  And if he isn't this is arguably the perfect draft to find the QB

G.  Dotson I think is a star in the making.  Best WR duo perhaps since Monk-Clark

 

I do think a new GM in 2024 is likely and I think said GM can fine tune this roster in short order.  

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[redskinss]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But I know you hate the negative so here's the positive to me.

I'm just trying to take kdawgs advice and try to post positive things.

 

Trust me if we start the season 1 and 4 I'll be on the negative train I'm just trying to go into the season as hopeful as I can.

[petey hodge]

25 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

I don't really care about camp.  I remember in 2020 when Haskins ….

[HigSkin]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, redskinss said:

I'm just trying to take kdawgs advice and try to post positive things.

 

Trust me if we start the season 1 and 4 I'll be on the negative train I'm just trying to go into the season as hopeful as I can.

 

I hear you.  I don't mind positive vibes.  Any vibe.  Any opinion is cool of course.  Helps kill time in the off season.

 

As I've told you my edginess about this off season is oddly draped in positivity.   I've given up on this team having a chance to win with Dan at the helm.  Dan gone is everything.  Harris was the owner i wanted.   I was worried that some fans were so checked out that I was uncertain that we'd get most of them back at this juncture even with Dan leaving -- but by most indications, most of the fans are back.

 

That's the perfect backdrop for a go for the kill off season.  Or if not an off season that Eagles style builds up draft capital for 2024.  Either a win now or a build for the future approach.  Ron instead in my book went medium.  He played it in the middlle.  He didn't do enough IMO for this season to look much different than any of the other mediocre seasons under his watch and also didn't do anything special to make fans jacked for 2024.   I used to defend Ron all the time for this play medium approach, saying he will get aggressive when the roster is close.  And said he'd do it this off season.  But nope, it didn't happen so it convinced me going medium is Ron's default speed no matter what the context is.  

 

I just don't want an 8-9 season if that happens to squander all the fan momentum we got.   And Ron's rhetoric on a lot of things haven't aged well with me including his talk about the O line, LB and wanting the fans of this team reengaged.    If Dan was still here, my angst would by almost non existent because there would be no unique opportunity.  But Ron inherited IMO a unique opportunity that I'd love to see him capitalize versus piss away.

 

I don't think they start slow.  I think they go 4-2 early on.  Schedule matchups are favorabe early IMO. I think Ron will likely have his typical up and down season with cool teases where it will feel like we are making the playoffs but then those hopes are dashed.  But I think for a change they start strong and their struggles happen more in the middle.  But who knows, will see.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

40 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

I think Howell is a gamer, I think he's one of those guys that show his best body of work when the real bullets are flying. 

 

The plays he made in his one start and the composure he showed (especially after the ugly pick) after having been 3rd string all year and gotten almost no reps has me pretty excited for him this season.

I think he'll make mistakes, there's not much doubt about that but they'll be mixed in with enough great plays that our offense will be competitive. 

 

I'm more Worried about Bienemy than I am about Howell but only because I see things in Howell I really like and Bienemy to me is a complete unknown.

 

 

Young QBs are always a wildcard of course.  But I like the vibe I get from Howell.  I lean positve.

 

I lean positive also on Bieniemy.

 

I like a lot of the potential on offense.  But that's part of why I am edgy about the O line.  A bad O line will limit everything -- limit the QB, limit the RBs, etc.    But hopefully the O line ends up OK.   

[wit33]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I hear you.  I don't mind positive vibes.  Any vibe.  Any opinion is cool of course.  Helps kill time in the off season.

 

As I've told you my edginess about this off season is oddly draped in positivity.   I've given up on this team having a chance to win with Dan at the helm.  Dan gone is everything.  Harris was the owner i wanted.   I was worried that some fans were so checked out that I was uncertain that we'd get most of them back at this juncture even with Dan leaving -- but by most indications, most of the fans are back.

 

That's the perfect backdrop for a go for the kill off season.  Or if not an off season that Eagles style builds up draft capital for 2024.  Either a win now or a build for the future approach.  Ron instead in my book went medium.  He played it in the middlle.  He didn't do enough IMO for this season to look much different than any of the other mediocre seasons under his watch and also didn't do anything special to make fans jacked for 2024.   I used to defend Ron all the time for this play medium approach, saying he will get aggressive when the roster is close.  And said he'd do it this off season.  But nope.  

 

I just don't want an 8-9 season if that happens to squander all the fan momentum we got.   And Ron's rhetoric on a lot of things haven't aged well with me including his talk about the O line, LB and wanting the fans of this team reengaged.    If Dan was still here, my angst would by almost non existent because there would be no unique opportunity.  But Ron inherited IMO a unique opportunity that I'd love to see him capitalize versus piss away.

 

I don't think they start slow.  I think they go 4-2 early on.  Schedule matchups are favorabe IMO. I think Ron will likely have his typical up and down season with cool teases where it will feel like we are making the playoffs but then those hopes are dashed.  But I think for a change they start strong and their struggles happen more in the middle.  But who knows, will see.

 

 

4-2 probably has a 10% chance of happening or something like that, you’re wildly optimistic. @redskinss may struggle to match that level of optimism. Oline helps produce a 4-2 record, Ron and company deserve immense credit. 
 

Personally, I want to see more of Howell in the pre season and early to make a lot predictions. 
 

Love the roster build by Ron, but must hit on a QB competence (with mobility) to get the masses behind you and have a realistic chance to win. 

Edited August 7, 2023 by wit33

[redskinss]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't think they start slow.  I think they go 4-2 early on.  Schedule matchups are favorabe early IMO. I think Ron will likely have his typical up and down season with cool teases where it will feel like we are making the playoffs but then those hopes are dashed.  But I think for a change they start strong and their struggles happen more in the middle.  But who knows, will see.

The bills and eagles games at 3 and 4 are definitely going to say a lot about this team.

If they can win one of those games or at least be competitive and have a chance of winning at the end we may have a surprise season. 

If they get out to early huge leads and we manage to make the score look closer than the game really was then we're probably in for more of the same.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, wit33 said:

4-2 probably has a 10% chance of happening or something like that, you’re wildly optimistic. @redskinss may struggle to match that level of optimism. Oline helps produce a 4-2 record, Ron and company deserve immense credit. 
 

Personally, I want to see a it more of Howell in the pre season and early to make a lot predictions. 
 

Love the roster build by Ron, but must hit on a QB competence (with mobility) to get the masses behind you and have a realistic chance to win. 

 

It all depends on the perspective behind your point.

 

I've hit the point about my angst relating to the O line probably too much.   But i've tried to couch my point, to. 

 

A.  I think the O line will be bad but not a disaster

B.  I think the O line will hold up fine in plenty of games

C.  I think the O line will sink us in tough matchups against teams with strong D lines which alas on paper is about half the matchups this year.

 

So while i don't think this O line will get undressed like they did against the Eagles in game 1 from last season.  I think it will be more in the mode of how the Giants suffocated this O line on some key drives with the game on the line. 

 

So looking at the start of the season.  I think O line will be overwhelmed enough to lose to the Bills and Eagles.  The Cardinals though have a meh D line.  Denver has a good defense but they aren't a team that sacks the QB much.   The Bears and Falcons were last and next to last in sacks last year.

 

So just by chance their lighter D line foes come early.    

Edited August 7, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[redskinss]

9 minutes ago, wit33 said:

4-2 probably has a 10% chance of happening or something like that, you’re wildly optimistic. @redskinss may struggle to match that level of optimism. Oline helps produce a 4-2 record, Ron and company deserve immense credit. 

On paper we have a legitimate chance to beat the cardinals, broncos, bears and falcons and more than likely will lose to the eagles and bills so I think that's where the optimistic 4-2 prediction stems from.

Seasons never play out the way we expect them to but I think we got a shot at 4-2 but if it happens I'll bet it'd be with a loss to one of those 4 teams and a victory against one of the other two.

Teams change so much year to year that preseason win loss predictions are usually not even close.

Edited August 7, 2023 by redskinss

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, redskinss said:

The bills and eagles games at 3 and 4 are definitely going to say a lot about this team.

If they can win one of those games or at least be competitive and have a chance of winning at the end we may have a surprise season. 

If they get out to early huge leads and we manage to make the score look closer than the game really was then we're probably in for more of the same.

 

As I laid out to @wit33 the first 6 games are a nice set up for a good start.  They need to start strong.  I did their record breakdown prediction in the prediction thread and gave them a hot start and cold finish.

 

If they get off to a bad or middiling start that's a bad sign IMO based on how the schedule is set up for them.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Oline helps produce a 4-2 record, Ron and company deserve immense credit. 

 

4-2 is based on them playing 4 games versus defenses with poor pass rushes.  If the idea is giving Ron credit for building an O line than can handle "meh" to worse D lines -- I'll throw him a parade now.  I genuinely think mission accomplished on that front. 

 

If the idea is the O line handles big boy D lines -- i think there is very little shot that happens and that's going to go really really bad for Ron.

 

Do I think the O line holds its own against the worst pass rushing teams in the league.  Yes I do.    But i think we are shooting higher than that.

  

[kfrankie]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I trust Keim the most.  So centering on his takes.

 

A. Up and down camp

B.  The coaches really like him because he works hard, learns from his mistakes, tough-doesn't get down when he makes mistakes or has a bad day.  Mentally tough.

C.  He seems to hint don't be shocked if this season is up and down for Howell but the bottom line is for him to develop

D.  Keim overall leans on optimism about Howell.

 

So on the average, he is learning as he goes and they like his makeup a lot.

 Sounds about right, thanks.

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

 

Everyone seems to be saying there will be lots of misdirection, screens, RPO's, etc etc but no mention of how good or bad Howell is looking at in some of these more complicated motions. Which I take to mean nobody is seeing an issue with his executing it.

This is essentially what he ran in College. Maybe not all the extensive use of motions but that’s about disguise and getting a declaration of coverage - as long as he’s comfortable with the verbiage I don’t see it as an issue.

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

If the idea is the O line handles big boy D lines -- i think there is very little shot that happens and that's going to go really really bad for Ron.

  

You can game plan against that to some extent -

quick game, screens, RPO etc etc. Just don’t get behind. If we get behind against a team with a really good pass rush it’s going to get ugly.

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 hours ago, Chris 44 said:

867-5309

This is the only answer. 

 

4 hours ago, redskinss said:

Isn't there a 2023 hindsight draft picks thread?

Can we move the wallowing in what might have been over there?

This thread is quickly moving from depressing to pathetic. 

 

I think this is my fault.

 

For years I did a "Who would you have taken" thread.  And this year I was busy and I didn't. I also used to track guys through the season based on the "who would you have taken" entries.  

 

What I found out from doing this for several years: the late round man-crushes almost always, with a few exceptions, had the type of careers you would expect most late round players to have.  An odd guy hit here or there, but most didn't.  Some folks had somewhat better track records for finding guys later in the draft than others, but eh, most guys flamed out.  

 

Anyway, I was busy and I didn't do it this year.  If there is interest, I'd be happy to start the 2023 version of the thread, and have folks put in up to 4 guys they would have taken AT THE SPOT THEY WERE AVAILABLE.  The biggest issue I always had was somebody would suggest a guy for a round when he wasn't there.  

 

Then what I did is track them after the first quarter of the season, the half-way point, and end of the season.

 

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

I’m curious what Samuel’s role here is.

 

I haven’t checked spotrac but would cutting him give us some needed cap space?

 

I could see Bienemy wanting to use him as a Skyy Moore/Tyreek Hill role, but McLaurin fits that as does Dotson. With Pringle emerging and Brown seemingly have a good camp, does that make Samuel a guy that we could use for asset purposes? Whether to gain cap space or to accrue a low end draft choice?

 

Im not sure I would at this juncture but the great camp these other guys are having and Samuel sitting certainly means they need to at least explore the option (but perhaps not act on it).

 

It also depends on the concern in the building. If they are resting him truly as precaution this convo doesn’t even need to happen. We just don’t know.

I think he's going to be that annoying guy to a defense that you kindof forget about, and somehow ends up with 4-6 touches a game for ~50 yards, but a few key conversions and a TD here and there.  They'll use him as a RB and WR, move him around a ton, use him as a lot of window dressing for other guys.

 

I don't know KC had a guy really like this, so I'm not sure there is a true comp.  But I think he's valuable to an offense because he can do a lot of different things, and the more different things he puts on tape, the more things opponents have to prepare for.  

 

I liked (not loved) the signing because I thought if Turner used him and Gibson correctly, they could both split a role of doing a lot of different things.

 

But that said, Turner never used either one correctly, Samuel spent the entire first season hurt, then we drafted Dotson, and here we are.

 

But I think he's a good 2nd tier weapon. 

[Warhead36]

The OL will be fine against most defenses because Bienemmy can scheme together quick stuff and Howell and the WRs should be able to connect enough to not worry too much about pressure.

 

I do think they'll struggle against the really strong fronts though, as scheming won't be able to make up for lack of talent up front and Howell's lack of experience(a real good QB can get by with a bad OL like Burrow for example).