The (New) Offensive Line Thread

[tmandoug1]

We have selected 4 offensive lineman in the first round since 1981. Eagles 8, Cowboys 3, Giants 7.  I guess I'm wrong and oline can be filled easily through the lower rounds. We just haven't been good at it at all.

[Koolblue13]

Our Oline repairs smell like a team that wants to pic in the top 10. I think we'll be a better team. It's all on the QB, sure, but we didn't do much to make Sams job easier.

[RandyHolt]

I have long called BS that a teams OL had to be static. That every other position on the field could have a rotation but never an OL. It was nice to see Dallas aggressively rotating out OL this past playoffs and putting to rest yet another age old NFL purist belief. Just because old stiff coaches do what has always been done doesn't make it the best thing to do. Coaches have adjusted a TON in recent years. Calling timeouts to get the ball back vs watching the time tock off and lose a free possession. Going for it on 4th down all over the field all game long. Not punting out of the endzone net 17 every damn game. Draw play on 3rd and long - now teams pass instead. 

 

That all said with our mishmash I can play anywhere OL maybe in obvious run or pass downs we need to sub in our best OL for that playcall. Since we abhor hurry up why let fresh DL rotate out against a static OL that has to get gassed like everyone else. An athletic guy like our 4th rounder maybe he'll be better in pass pro early in his career. Get his ass out there in passing downs if better than another player whose strength is... positional flexibility.

Edited May 4, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

Yeah Mayhew was heavily involved by the sounds of it.

 

I think it will be

LT Leno

LG Gates or best of the rest.

C Stromberg 

RG Gates or best of the rest

RT Wylie

 

I would still consider Dalton Risner in FA for LG, Gates RG, the rest can back-up IMO.

 

I get the early vibe that they will start Howell with a veteran at center not a rookie.  That's what some beat guys think, but will see.

 

Be surprised if Gates starts at guard, Rivera was flat out asked where he'd play and he said center.

 

So i think Gates starts at center.   Stromberg starts on the bench.

 

Gates wasn't nearly as good at guard versus center so I think if Gates starts at guard, we might be in trouble.

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Our Oline repairs smell like a team that wants to pic in the top 10. I think we'll be a better team. It's all on the QB, sure, but we didn't do much to make Sams job easier.

 

that's how i feel.     The O line could work if multiple things break right.  But the odds aren't hot that you'd have so many things converge like that.  But you never know.

 

I like how Ron rebuilt the secondary.  I like adding Rodriguez to the RB room.  I like this team's WRs.  I disagree with them that TE is fine as is.  But its certainly possible, its not crazy.  I like the depth now on the D line.

 

But its tough to be good in the NFL with a suspect O line.  Our division rivals have monster D lines.  I suspect that this season's death knell will be the O line -- and Ron will say hey you can't rebuild everything in one off season, but look how good our defense is!  And i suspect he will be saying that on his way out the door.  

Edited May 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[redskinsfanatic63]

if we miss the playoffs we get a new coach and a new qb next season

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, redskinsfanatic63 said:

if we miss the playoffs we get a new coach and a new qb next season

 

new coach for sure.  new QB totally depends.

[Koolblue13]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I get the early vibe that they will start Howell with a veteran at center not a rookie.  That's what some beat guys think, but will see.

 

Be surprised if Gates starts at guard, Rivera was flat out asked where he'd play and he said center.

 

So i think Gates starts at center.   Stromberg starts on the bench.

 

Gates wasn't nearly as good at guard versus center so I think if Gates starts at guard, we might be in trouble.

 

that's how i feel.     The O line could work if multiple things break right.  But the odds aren't hot that you'd have so many things converge like that.  But you never know.

 

I like how Ron rebuilt the secondary.  I like adding Rodriguez to the RB room.  I like this team's WRs.  I disagree with them that TE is fine as is.  But its certainly possible, its not crazy.  I like the depth now on the D line.

 

But its tough to be good in the NFL with a suspect O line.  Our division rivals have monster D lines.  I suspect that this season's death knell will be the O line -- and Ron will say hey you can rebuild everything in one off season, but look how good our defense is!  And i suspect he will be saying that on his way out the door.  

Yeah, this draft is bothering me more and more the more I think about it. I like a lot of the players, but Forbes at 16 and Daniels in the 4rth. Is that better than Harrison at 16 and Ringo in the 4rth or Ricks UDFA? I really like the Quan pick, but is it going to be better than JMS or Steen or Avalia and DoFo again? 

 

We said that we'd attack the Oline this offseason and we didn't. We brought in 2 FA that we'rent improvements. Drafted two developmental guys (I'm high on Strom). That's not attacking the Oline. That's trusting to hope again.

 

Rodriguez looks good and another hammer back is great if you just want to pound the ball and lean on your defense, which seems to be the plan.

[Est.1974]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Be surprised if Gates starts at guard, Rivera was flat out asked where he'd play and he said center.

 

So i think Gates starts at center.   Stromberg starts on the bench.

 

Gates wasn't nearly as good at guard versus center so I think if Gates starts at guard, we might be in trouble.

Could be right. I think the rookie starts. I think my final view on that would be, if Gates does start at C and Stromberg is back-up then we should have gone in another direction with our third round pick.

 

At least we have options of some description now 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Yeah, this draft is bothering me more and more the more I think about it. I like a lot of the players, but Forbes at 16 and Daniels in the 4rth. Is that better than Harrison at 16 and Ringo in the 4rth or Ricks UDFA? I really like the Quan pick, but is it going to be better than JMS or Steen or Avalia and DoFo again? 

 

We said that we'd attack the Oline this offseason and we didn't. We brought in 2 FA that we'rent improvements. Drafted two developmental guys (I'm high on Strom). That's not attacking the Oline. That's trusting to hope again.

 

Rodriguez looks good and another hammer back is great if you just want to pound the ball and lean on your defense, which seems to be the plan.

 

Feels like what they accomplished is raise both the floor and ceiling for the defense.  I think its telling that Keim's takeaway talking to his sources in the FO post draft is the #1 desire right now is to add a LB.  LB clearly is the last spot that needs upgrades-depth.    the defense is really stacked.   Seems like the goal is to build a dominant defense and hope that Bieniemy is the X factor with the offense.  Keim keeps saying they think Bieiniemy makes a major difference -- that's cool but I don't think they've done much to help him.

 

But they are playing in a division with some monster D lines.  And we have a suspect O line.   The O line upgrades from the draft are likely to sit i believe this year.  Heck Rivera flat out more or less said there is no rush as to Daniels playing.

 

As for this off season, the main thing they accomplished on the O line is ensuring if they get injuries to center, this time they should surivive that.

 

Basically they got to bet on Cosmi staying healthy for a change.  And Chris Paul develops.  Can that happen?  sure.   But its a roll of the dice.

 

But judging by Vegas, the draft media doing 2024 mocks, and the national media -- after this offseason, the expectations from them are this team will be one of the worst in the NFL.  While the Giants for example is a real up and coming and on the rise team.

 

Personally if I had to guess.  9-8 or 8-9.  Better team that last year but tougher schedule. 

 

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-power-rankings-post-2023-nfl-draft

 

 

 

Rank

14

2

 

New York Giants

Draft picks: 7

.Previous rank: No. 12

 

The Giants didn't get many headlines for their draft haul, but they might have come out of the weekend with starters from their first three picks. Deonte Banks (selected 24th overall out of Maryland) makes sense as a starter across from Adoree' Jackson at cornerback in Wink Martindale's defense. Center John Michael Schmitz could be a second-round steal and should have the chance to be a Day 1 starter. Then there's third-round pick and Tennessee product Jalin Hyatt, a wide receiver who gives the G-Men the vertical threat they lacked a season ago. The Giants expect Daniel Jones to continue to ascend in 2023 -- well, one can only presume this, based on the size of his new contract -- and this draft should help fuel that goal.

 

Rank

30

1

 

Washington Commanders

Draft picks: 7

Previous rank: No. 29

 

The Sam Howell thing might be real. The Commanders kept telling anyone who asked that they were serious about giving the 2022 fifth-round pick a chance to win the starting job in 2023, and their decision to pass on taking a quarterback in the draft proved they were serious. A Howell v. Jacoby Brissett summertime camp battle doesn't scream HIGH-LEVEL CONTENDER, but it's also fair to wonder if the organization is in a bit of a holding pattern on seismic decisions (like, say, using an early pick on a quarterback), with team ownership very much in transition. A new era in Washington football is coming ... just not yet.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Fresh8686]

We really could have used that third round pick from the Wentz trade to have picked up more o-line like Wanya Morris. Hopefully, there are some decent post draft cuts we can look through. I really do think we will see an improvement from last year, but the bar is so low when you go back and look at the games Doug Martin or Schweitzer started for us at center.

 

Here's how I see our o-line compared to last year.

• Upgraded center and center depth (Chase barely played and who knows what toll his injuries have taken on his athleticism and ability to anchor)
• Upgraded right guard if Cosmi can stay healthy and marginally better depth when he doesn't.
• Hopefully marginal improvement at left guard at least athletically
• More consistency at right tackle
• Same left tackle, but more wear and tear?
• QB with faster release
• Much, much better protections and play-calling from EB over Turner.

[lovemaskins]

I wonder how much of Ron's roster building has to do with his loyalty to the players. He is a player's coach.

 

For example, not sure why you don't draft Kincaid at 16, need and a potential game changer, but does Ron not take him out of loyalty to the current tight end group because Kincaid would easily be the top dog in that room, where as taking a couple of corners to be mentored by Fuller keeps the player hierarchy in place and keeps his players coach persona in tact?

 

Not that he's necessarily manipulative like that, just how his personality works.  Why players love him in general. Great for a coach, terrible for a GM.

[samy316]

I don't think we've done nearly enough to address the O-Line this offseason, especially when you consider the fact that we're going to be starting a young QB, with one start to his name.  We should've done more quite frankly to address this critical need.  The fact that we made some solid, but not overly impressive moves on the line in FA, combined with what we did in the draft, the prognosticators in Vegas and the media might be right in predicting this team to be one of the worst in the NFL next season.  I think we'll get to 6 or 7 wins, but it won't be easy and it will be largely off the backs of our outstanding defense.  We didn't get our young QB a good enough line, NOR did we upgrade the tight end position adequately.  You need both to ensure a young QB's success. 

 

I foresee us in a bunch of 16-13 or 20-17 games next year, and I predict Sam Howell to be running for his life, and getting injured due to Ron's negligence.

Edited May 4, 2023 by samy316

[redskinsfanatic63]

i still can,t believe hinicke left when he would havemore here than he will in atlanta

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Could be right. I think the rookie starts. I think my final view on that would be, if Gates does start at C and Stromberg is back-up then we should have gone in another direction with our third round pick.

 

At least we have options of some description now 

 

 

the ones covering the team, expect Gates to start at center.  2 reasons.

 

A.  When Rivera has been asked about Gates lately he says center.  he doesn't mention guard.

 

B.  The feeling is a young Qb would benefit from a veteran center to help him with protections -- versus a rookie center learning the ropes on it.

 

I suspect Stromberg could play at some point this season.  We got no depth at guard for example.   And injuries happen.  But right now I get the vibe he's not considered the starter from day 1.

 

Still even if he doesn't play from the jump, i like the pick.  But Ron's general approach to the O line this off season comes off like hey on further reflection, its not that bad.  Lets get some younger guys to build some depth and maybe starters for the future.     I think there is a good shot it will blow up on him as to this season. 

 

But now next off season shoud be fun, assuming if Howell is progressing -- it will be all hands on deck for O line.  Maybe an edge to replace Sweat or Chase.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[shemp nixon]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

the ones covering the team, expect Gates to start at center.  2 reasons.

 

A.  When Rivera has been asked about Gates lately he says center.  he doesn't mention guard.

 

B.  The feeling is a young Qb would benefit from a veteran center to help him with protections -- versus a rookie center learning the ropes on it.

 

I suspect Stromberg could play at some point this season.  We got no depth at guard for example.   And injuries happen.  But right now I get the vibe he's not considered the starter from day 1.

 

Still even if he doesn't play from the jump, i like the pick.  But Ron's general approach to the O line this off season comes off like hey on further reflection, its not that bad.  Lets get some younger guys to build some depth and maybe starters for the future.     I think there is a good shot it will blow up on him as to this season. 

 

But now next off season shoud be fun, assuming if Howell is progressing -- it will be all hands on deck for O line.  Maybe an edge to replace Sweat or Chase.

IMO the team's approach to the o-line signals they think the QB play was the biggest problem last season.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

I'm not sure how some of you are confident this will be a substantially better unit.

I haven’t noticed anyone expressing confidence it’ll be substantially better, but maybe I missed it.  Better depth?  Yes.  Better starting unit?  Eh, maybe to some extent.

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

 

As I see it, we have to hope the O-line sauce is better than the individual ingredients that create it. That panned out in 2021 to a good degree, where we made some magic with some random pieces, but totally flopped in 2022. 

 

I am not confident that this oline can be good, especially bringing in a new O line coach and new O coordinator. We could be running schemes that are a far cry from what our carryover are used to.

Agree about hoping the whole unit is better than the parts.

I’m not sure what to think about our new oline coach.  Not too worried about blocking schemes though - I think there will generally be a lot of familiarity (I could be way wrong on that front thought).  My bigger concern is getting these guys these guys on the same page… we could have up to 4 new starters, and they’ll likely wanna spend time mixing and matching guys to find their best group (both 1st and 2nd string).

 

The combo of new OL, scheme, and young qb… seems a safe bet we’ll get off to a slow start once again.  My best guess is we’ll see flashes early on, but consistency will take (perhaps considerable) time/experience.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, shemp nixon said:

IMO the team's approach to the o-line signals they think the QB play was the biggest problem last season.

 

Listening to beat guys -- Qb and Turner.   Keim is typically diplomatic on what he says.  But he's been brutal on Scott Turner (as have others been who cover the team) without saying his name.  He talks about before to now.  He suggests it wasn't just play calling but he brought no energy to that unit -- in a nicer way he basically suggested his low key personality was the kicker to the "meh" play calling.

 

I used to warn some who thought Scott would be a good head coach -- have you guys seen him in an interview -- he makes his dad look like the life of the party.  But apparently his lifeless personally didn't help keep the players in that unit up. 

 

It makes sense to me that Bieinemy is breath of fresh air.  But offensive line is such a physical one on one spot.  Chris Paul might be amped for a game but that doesn't mean he will stop Dexter Lawrence or Jordan Davis, or whomever.

 

For the O line to work, it hinges on Cosmi both converting well to guard and staying healthy for a change.  And Paul, a 7th rounder finding his groove.

 

And then for the depth at that spot its bascially S. Charles who is always hurt, an undersized rookie and some centers who aren't as good at guard.

 

Again it could work out.  But I think at least 50-50 the O line goes off the rails in a bad way two seasons in a row.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Feels like what they accomplished is raise both the floor and ceiling for the defense.  I think its telling that Keim's takeaway talking to his sources in the FO post draft is the #1 desire right now is to add a LB.  LB clearly is the last spot that needs upgrades-depth.    the defense is really stacked.   Seems like the goal is to build a dominant defense and hope that Bieniemy is the X factor with the offense.  Keim keeps saying they think Bieiniemy makes a major difference -- that's cool but I don't think they've done much to help him.

 

But they are playing in a division with some monster D lines.  And we have a suspect O line.   The O line upgrades from the draft are likely to sit i believe this year.  Heck Rivera flat out more or less said there is no rush as to Daniels playing.

 

As for this off season, the main thing they accomplished on the O line is ensuring if they get injuries to center, this time they should surivive that.

 

Basically they got to bet on Cosmi staying healthy for a change.  And Chris Paul develops.  Can that happen?  sure.   But its a roll of the dice.

 

But judging by Vegas, the draft media doing 2024 mocks, and the national media -- after this offseason, the expectations from them are this team will be one of the worst in the NFL.  While the Giants for example is a real up and coming and on the rise team.

 

Personally if I had to guess.  9-8 or 8-9.  Better team that last year but tougher schedule. 

 

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-power-rankings-post-2023-nfl-draft

 

 

 

Rank

14

2

 

New York Giants

Draft picks: 7

.Previous rank: No. 12

 

The Giants didn't get many headlines for their draft haul, but they might have come out of the weekend with starters from their first three picks. Deonte Banks (selected 24th overall out of Maryland) makes sense as a starter across from Adoree' Jackson at cornerback in Wink Martindale's defense. Center John Michael Schmitz could be a second-round steal and should have the chance to be a Day 1 starter. Then there's third-round pick and Tennessee product Jalin Hyatt, a wide receiver who gives the G-Men the vertical threat they lacked a season ago. The Giants expect Daniel Jones to continue to ascend in 2023 -- well, one can only presume this, based on the size of his new contract -- and this draft should help fuel that goal.

 

Rank

30

1

 

Washington Commanders

Draft picks: 7

Previous rank: No. 29

 

The Sam Howell thing might be real. The Commanders kept telling anyone who asked that they were serious about giving the 2022 fifth-round pick a chance to win the starting job in 2023, and their decision to pass on taking a quarterback in the draft proved they were serious. A Howell v. Jacoby Brissett summertime camp battle doesn't scream HIGH-LEVEL CONTENDER, but it's also fair to wonder if the organization is in a bit of a holding pattern on seismic decisions (like, say, using an early pick on a quarterback), with team ownership very much in transition. A new era in Washington football is coming ... just not yet.

Kinda feels like the defense is really really close to being special, so lets nail that shut and then let the offense get destroyed so we can rebuild that next year. Go all in on a QB, invest heavily on the Oline, etc. We might be able to sell off a couple pieces next offseason for more trade bait and rebuild the offense. 

 

We have a very good WR trio and not much else on offense. Lots of could be's. Gibby could be dynamic as a 3rd down back, BRob might be a bell cow, a young TE might show out, a patch work underinvested in Oline might not get broken into a bunch of pieces and crumble yet again.

 

The way they keep talking about LBer makes it sound like they know something we don't about who's coming in, but it's probably going to be Bostic on his 3rd tour.

[MrJL]

3 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 Nice strawman.

How about we just stick to guys that play C, G, and OT? Huh? For the starters?

Poistion flex for backups? Sure, good idea. But I want quality for starters. I'm not sure why you don't.

 

I don't see any real upgrades, at all. Lateral moves. We went after mid-low tier players. Look at our DL, and then look at our OL. It's night and day. We have been skimping on OL for years, and we've paid the price.

 

no, I think that's foolish.  I mean it's not like we spend a ton of time swapping them around once they win the jobs

 

And honestly I think quality players are adaptable players.  Position flex means you can get the best five on the field,

[Skinsinparadise]

43 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Kinda feels like the defense is really really close to being special, so lets nail that shut and then let the offense get destroyed so we can rebuild that next year. Go all in on a QB, invest heavily on the Oline, etc. We might be able to sell off a couple pieces next offseason for more trade bait and rebuild the offense. 

 

We have a very good WR trio and not much else on offense. Lots of could be's. Gibby could be dynamic as a 3rd down back, BRob might be a bell cow, a young TE might show out, a patch work underinvested in Oline might not get broken into a bunch of pieces and crumble yet again.

 

The way they keep talking about LBer makes it sound like they know something we don't about who's coming in, but it's probably going to be Bostic on his 3rd tour.

 

lol, i get the vibe they have their sights higher than Bostic part 3 but will see.

 

Yeah feels the same way for me.  Lets build a killer defense.  And finish the offense next year.  the issue is i don't think for Ron that will sell with the new ownership.

 

For starters, today's league offense > defense.  The fact that Rivera, old school coach, spends more draft capital (FA too if you consider the Payne resign) on defense than offense after their defense was ranked 3rd in the league last year and their offense was close to the bottom -- brings home Ron being old school.

 

We are competing with NY as far as being a team coming from the bottom to go toe to toe with Dallas-Philly.  And in one season the sort of a new school team of Daboll-Schoen with the Giants had a better year than any of Ron's seasons here.  And beat this team with the playoffs on the line.  Some say they flat out coached this team. With Daboll after being hired, Joe Gibbs style, loaded his coaching staff with the best of the best without worry about comfort and old relationships.

 

And arguably done much more to juice their offense.  JMS is ready IMO to start right away.  They added Paris Campbell, Waller, Crowder.  In the draft Hyatt and Gray.

 

The Giants juiced up their offense at least in theory, big time.   

 

The Giants off season has been heralded to death.  And I believe our win projection actually went down with Vegas after this off season.

 

I think the Rivera old school narrative is a bit overdone.  I do think he does a solid job.  But he's now in a division with three front offices with big time reputations.  The Eagles some consider the best.  Will McClay in Dallas is considered one of the best in the business.  And Joe Schoen was considered one of the best in Bufflao, he added one of the Eagles top guys to be his #2 man and seemed to accomplish more in one year than Ron did in 4 -- and I think Ron while is competent IMO he is overmatched by EVERY FO in this division. 

 

https://www.giants.com/news/experts-grade-giants-2023-nfl-draft-class-joe-schoen-deonte-banks

 

Pro Football Focus

Grade: A+

On Deonte Banks: "The third-best cornerback on the PFF big board, Banks can fly and clocked a 4.35-second 40-yard dash at the scouting combine in Indianapolis. An elite athlete, he has proven that he can mirror wide receivers in college and has the size teams look for at the position."

On John Michael Schmitz: "If the Giants had made this pick in the first round, nobody would have really batted an eye. He led all centers with a 92.3 PFF grade in 2022 and had graded well both on zone and gap plays. He's a big guy but can really move and was a four-year starter at Minnesota. Simply put, he is one of the best run blockers at the position to enter the draft in recent years. "

On Jalin Hyatt: "Hyatt won the Biletnikoff Award as the top wide receiver in college football, averaging 18.9 yards per reception and scoring 15 touchdowns. He is a burner on the outside that needs some refinement but has all the athletic ability necessary to excel at the next level. Hyatt's 40-yard dash, vertical and broad jump were all above the 85th percentile. The Giants add a much-needed outside weapon for QB Daniel Jones."

On Eric Gray: "Gray was really impressive in his final season of college, producing an elite 90.6 PFF grade in 2022. He graded well on both zone and gap plays, and while he's a little on the small size, he moves really well, posting a 96.2 elusive rating that was one of the best marks in this running back class."

Sporting News' Vinnie Iyer

Grade: A

"The Giants were methodical about their needs, getting a big need at corner right away with an ace outside cover man in Banks. Schmitz, Hyatt and Gray were necessary boosts around Daniel Jones, including a sound interior blocker and big-play threat."

Yahoo Sports' Charles McDonald

Grade: A

"General manager Joe Schoen seems to have his finger on the pulse of the draft. This is two years in a row that he's put together an impressive haul. Maryland cornerback Deonte Banks is the perfect cornerback for defensive coordinator Wink Martindale's system and they only had to move up one spot to get him at 24th overall. He's got massive upside as a man coverage corner and will get a ton of those opportunities in this defense. Banks, John Michael Schmitz, Jalin Hyatt and even fifth-round rookie running back Eric Gray have a chance to be immediate contributors for this team."

Edited May 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[samy316]

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

lol, i get the vibe they have their sights higher than Bostic part 3 but will see.

 

Yeah feels the same way for me.  Lets build a killer defense.  And finish the offense next year.  the issue is i don't think for Ron that will sell with the new ownership.

 

For starters, today's league offense > defense.  The fact that Rivera, old school coach, spends more draft capital (FA too if you consider the Payne resign) on defense than offense after their defense was ranked 3rd in the league last year and their offense was close to the bottom -- brings home Ron being old school.

 

We are competing with NY as far as being a team coming from the bottom to go toe to toe with Dallas-Philly.  And in one season the sort of a new school team of Daboll-Schoen with the Giants had a better year than any of Ron's seasons here.  And beat this team with the playoffs on the line.  Some say they flat out coached this team. With Daboll after being hired, Joe Gibbs style, loaded his coaching staff with the best of the best without worry about comfort and old relationships.

 

And arguably done much more to juice their offense.  JMS is ready IMO to start right away.  They added Paris Campbell, Waller, Crowder.  In the draft Hyatt and Gray.

 

The Giants juiced up their offense at least in theory, big time.   

 

The Giants off season has been heralded to death.  And I believe our win projection actually went down with Vegas after this off season.

 

I think the Rivera old school narrative is a bit overdone.  I do think he does a solid job.  But he's now in a division with three front offices with big time reputations.  The Eagles some consider the best.  Will McClay in Dallas is considered one of the best in the business.  And Joe Schoen was considered one of the best in Bufflao, he added one of the Eagles top guys to be his #2 man and seemed to accomplish more in one year than Ron did in 4 -- and I think Ron while is competent IMO he is overmatched by EVERY FO in this division. 

 

 

 

I think it's without question that the other teams in the division (including the Giants sadly) have all passed us by.  We're solidly the last place team in the division.  Ron is too old school, and too defensive oriented to really understand and comprehend today's NFL.  That's why I was so frustrated with our draft.  I don't have any doubts that the defensive players we drafted in Round 1 & 2 will be solid contributors, but at the same time, YOU NEED TO IMPROVE THE OFFENSE!!!!

 

We had one of the worst O-Line's in the NFL last year, and we had a below average TE room, with some of the lowest numbers in the NFL in both TD's and Yards.  Any coach who knows something about offense would be moving heaven and earth to bolster up both units, especially with a rookie QB in the starter role next year.  Ron hasn't done enough to ensure that this team will be any better offensively this year than it was last year.  That will ultimately be his undoing, and why he will be fired at the end of next season.  Unless Daniel Jones gets hurt, or reverts back to his old turnover-prone self, the Commanders will finish last in the division in 2023.  I know everyone is wishing and hoping that Eric Bienemy will be the difference maker in getting the offense to score more points next season, but I don't know how that's possible, with a bad O-Line.  Howell will be running for his life, and getting sacked every other play.

Edited May 4, 2023 by samy316

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Yeah, this draft is bothering me more and more the more I think about it.

 

Yeah it hasn't aged well for me, either.  I typically am an optimist about the roster.  And I know both you and I were high about the roster before the off season.  But it looks like the off season has not moved either one of us as far as thinking this team took the next step.

 

I like most of the players they took but I don't like sum of the parts as for the roster build.  And i don't like the overall approach to the off season.

 

If they want to go old school.  Killer defense.  Road grader RBs that wear down the defense.  1980s Redskins style.  Then you need that Redskins O line to finish the job -- versus having one of the weakest O line units in the league. 

 

The one good thing about the job they did is it gives potential for both a bad season and to have a loaded roster which isn't hard to fix to start 2024.  And it would be for a new coach-FO in that case.  I've defended Ron a ton over the years.  And i like the dude. 

 

But I do think he needs to go after this season.  this off seaon is what convinced me of it especially juxtaposed with what the other teams in the division did.  It almost feels like Ron thinks this is the team to beat in the division and just needs tinkering -- while those poor suckers, the Giants, Dallas, and Eagles need to be uber aggressive to catch up to us. 

 

Seems like most of the draft community, Vegas, national media feel like this team had the least sense of urgency within the division and the gap now increased with the other three teams in the division increasing their lead as to talent over this team.  They might be wrong.  But I suspect they are right. 

 

I know its counter intuitive to both have a good roster and a bad season.  But as a scout once said, its tough to be a good team with a bad offensive line.  Simple as that.

 

IMO they had to do one or the other.  Either sign a signficant O lineman in FA or take one in the first or 2nd.  I don't like forcing picks in the draft so in theory i am ok with not taking an O lineman early (but didn't see guys like Mauch as a forced pick) but not in the context of also not being aggressive in FA.  When your O line is awful, you don't make a C effort in FA AND a C effort in the draft. 

 

For good measure, they skipped TE in a borderline historic draft at that spot.   So Sam is relying on Thomas coming off a bad season (hopefully he can bounce back) and Armani Rodgers who had 5 catches in his whole career.  Maybe Cole Turner stays healthy.  Not saying that doesn't work out.  but its a roll of the dice.  O line is also a roll of the dice.  Too many maybes for me to bet on it all working out.

 

The Giants for example, their weaknesse was WR.  What do they do?  They added one of the top receiving TEs in the league.  Traded up to get one of the best WRs in this draft.  And added two other WR FAs.

 

I think both you and I thought they meant it when they flat out said they need to fix the O line and it was their main weakness last year.  But they really come off like they have no urgency to make it anything good.  They've thrown some fliers at the spot, not much more than that.   The Giants code red spot was WR -- they went to town to fit it -- they were aggressive. 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[JSSkinz]

It does kinda feel like last year v2 as to how they addressed the O line. They spent a little more cash but it seems like we still have a bunch of average O lineman.

 

I'm not mad they didn't address TE. I think our lack of tight end production had to do with the quarterback play and until we find a decent quarterback I dont see how we can judge any of the talent we have on offense, especially when you're throwing for 170 yards a game.

 

At the offensive skilled positions I think this is the most talented I've seen this team in two decades.

[Koolblue13]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah it hasn't aged well for me, either.  I typically am an optimist about the roster.  And I know both you and I were high about the roster before the off season.  But it looks like the off season has not moved either one of us as far as thinking this team took the next step.

 

I like most of the players they took but I don't like sum of the parts as for the roster build.  And i don't like the overall approach to the off season.

 

If they want to go old school.  Killer defense.  Road grader RBs that wear down the defense.  1980s Redskins style.  Then you need that Redskins O line to finish the job -- versus having one of the weakest O line units in the league. 

 

The one good thing about the job they did is it gives potential for both a bad season and to have a loaded roster which isn't hard to fix to start 2024.  And it would be for a new coach-FO in that case.  I've defended Ron a ton over the years.  And i like the dude. 

 

But I do think he needs to go after this season.  this off seaon is what convinced me of it especially juxtaposed with what the other teams in the division did.  It almost feels like Ron thinks this is the team to beat in the division and just needs tinkering -- while those poor suckers, the Giants, Dallas, and Eagles need to be uber aggressive to catch up to us. 

 

Seems like most of the draft community, Vegas, national media feel like this team had the least sense of urgency within the division and the gap now increased with the other three teams in the division increasing their lead as to talent over this team.  They might be wrong.  But I suspect they are right. 

 

I know its counter intuitive to both have a good roster and a bad season.  But as a scout once said, its tough to be a good team with a bad offensive line.  Simple as that.

 

IMO they had to do one or the other.  Either sign a signficant O lineman in FA or take one in the first or 2nd.  I don't like forcing picks in the draft so in theory i am ok with not taking an O lineman early (but didn't see guys like Mauch as a forced pick) but not in the context of also not being aggressive in FA.  When your O line is awful, you don't make a C effort in FA AND a C effort in the draft. 

 

For good measure, they skipped TE in a borderline historic draft at that spot.   So Sam is relying on Thomas coming off a bad season (hopefully he can bounce back) and Armani Rodgers who had 5 catches in his whole career.  Maybe Cole Turner stays healthy.  Not saying that doesn't work out.  but its a roll of the dice.  O line is also a roll of the dice.  Too many maybes for me to bet on it all working out.

 

The Giants for example, their weaknesse was WR.  What do they do?  They added one of the top receiving TEs in the league.  Traded up to get one of the best WRs in this draft.  And added two other WR FAs.

 

I think both you and I thought they meant it when they flat out said they need to fix the O line and it was their main weakness last year.  But they really come off like they have no urgency to make it anything good.  They've thrown some fliers at the spot, not much more than that.   The Giants code red spot was WR -- they went to town to fit it -- they were aggressive. 

 

 

You and I are generally the two polyannas around here and I just feel so deflated, especially after the Giants and Eagles just crushed their offseason. Eagles came off a superbowl, lost some big FAs and somehow improved. I don't see us winning 1 game in the east next year.

 

I'm usually hopeful and optimistic, but this team can prove me wrong. It's a bad team and if Harris takes his usual approach to franchise building it's about to get a whole lot worse for a while.

The not addressing TE in a historic TE draft is just mind blowing to me. That's an absolute failure.

 

So is not taking one of the very many LBers  to start day 3.

 

We really could have rebuilt our Oline days one and two, then filled in a defense that was already one of the leagues best, while grabbing a TE, QB, LBer

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, samy316 said:

 

I think it's without question that the other teams in the division (including the Giants sadly) have all passed us by.  We're solidly the last place team in the division.  Ron is too old school, and too defensive oriented to really understand and comprehend today's NFL.  That's why I was so frustrated with our draft.  I don't have any doubts that the defensive players we drafted in Round 1 & 2 will be solid contributors, but at the same time, YOU NEED TO IMPROVE THE OFFENSE!!!!

 

We had one of the worst O-Line's in the NFL last year, and we had a below average TE room, with some of the lowest numbers in the NFL in both TD's and Yards.  Any coach who knows something about offense would be moving heaven and earth to bolster up both units, especially with a rookie QB in the starter role next year.  Ron hasn't done enough to ensure that this team will be any better offensively this year than it was last year.  That will ultimately be his undoing, and why he will be fired at the end of next season.  Unless Daniel Jones gets hurt, or reverts back to his old turnover-prone self, the Commanders will finish last in the division in 2023.  I know everyone is wishing and hoping that Eric Bienemy will be the difference maker in getting the offense to score more points next season, but I don't know how that's possible, with a bad O-Line.  Howell will be running for his life, and getting sacked every other play.

 

The good news for me is what Ron did IMO, is set up the roster somewhat methodically for 2024.  i do like the defense.  There is just about nothing to fix on that unit and its deep.

 

The offense is really about O line in 2024 and nothing else.  Maybe TE.  They seem to believe in Turner, Rogers, Hodges.  I was big on Turner in last years draft but he didn't play last season.  So to me its a TBD but its frustrating that they skipped this loaded TE draft.

 

But yeah it almost feels like a kamikaze job from Ron but in a good way for the next staff -- sacrificing himself but setting up the next FO-HC.   He clearly didn't do it intentionally but it happened organically.

 

IMO he did just enough to set up the next group for the kill.  But held back just enough to double down on an average season at best. 

 

For good measure, he brought zero excitement with FA or the draft to sell tickets --  so i doubt that endears the new owner

 

you got a new offensive system, new QB, and a new offensive line with some new parts - the odds that all of that comes together and quickly against a tough schedule aren't that good.

 

So you got zero pizzaz with the moves, likely a bad start for the season, and left a vulnerabilty that can both implode the season and in turn hurt his chances to say hey at least i found the QB. 

 

I like Ron as a dude.  i got no bitterness about his tenure.   He endured a lot.  And i am grateful that he was the coach during the turmoil.  But now that we have an owner who can ramp the race car to 150 MPH -- Ron IMO is not that dude to do it, i don't think its in his DNA.  He's a steady-calm the ship guy -- perfect to weather a storm but not the dude IMO to rocketship this puppy to great heights. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise