PleaseBlitz Posted September 10, 2022 Share Posted September 10, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: There's no doubt military can jus training folks expecting them to leave, because that's whats happening. In light if Cyber exploding in private sector but also complaining about quality Cyber personel, there's jus not enough to go around for everyone. No matter how high a priority DOD has on Cyber, there's too many Cyber positions in other industries to jus expect the to stay private sector for defense industry, let alone the good ones. Or in similar positions they served in the military. I agree with your entire post, including the above, but I do have a comment about this. I've spoken with Jeh Johnson a few times, he is formerly the Secretary of Homeland Security and also formerly the General Counsel for the entire DoD. He is now a partner at Paul Weiss. He is probably making something like $6 million per year, maybe more. The military has to train its own people, and they are always going to leave once they get good, and so the military is going to have to continue to train its own people. That problem is not solvable in any reasonable way. The DoD's pitch, especially right now, should be something like "don't pay to go to college and learn cyber (and get stuck with crippling debt you won't be able to pay off for 20 yeas), join us and we'll pay you to learn cyber. And in 10 years you'll be awesome at it and can go make **** you money." Edit: I am cognizant that this particular example is an extreme outlier, but the point is the private sector is always going to pay more for talent (since it makes money and the military does not) and the military cannot hope to compete. Edited September 10, 2022 by PleaseBlitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted September 10, 2022 Share Posted September 10, 2022 @PleaseBlitz I total believe that regarding military waving white flag on retention for Cyber, and helps clarify their own understanding of addressing the recruitment problem. Because they have to grow they capability while knowing they are losing them at the same time, so they can't afford recruitment and retention to be equal or more leaving then coming in. Concern obviously this isn't growing fast enough to keep up with our adversaries capabilities. 10 years is a pretty decent amount of time for any single employer this day in age, not to underestimate how many leave after 4-5 years (can finish a degree, a couple certs, and clearance in that time period, so the private sector money bags are sitting there in the way of renewals with the military as well). I made it all the way to MEPS in Ft. MEAD at 19 for air force to tell me I couldn't have an IT job and had to wait for one to become available. Could be security forces in meantime. In light of NOT getting IT experience while in the military, decided to take the risk of getting what I could whilenin college following the recession. When I wanted to try again, this time focus in Cyber, I saw the pay discrepancies comparing military and private sector, sighed, and gutted it out until I got with government cyber in DC and now here I am. Jus my own experience. Not to mention military doesn't allow weed, which didn't help with recruitment then and certainly isn't helping now (Cyber industry knows this as well and talking about it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted September 10, 2022 Share Posted September 10, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Renegade7 said: You may be right concerning retention, but getting them in the military in the first place I disagree on because how hard it is to get what military offers to folks with no work experience. Again, OP is about recruitment, I took it to retention to help with the low recruitment numbers You should talk to a recruiter to see what they say are their most-used selling points. It isn't the bonuses because usually the requirements for them are so high. College is usually the #1 selling point. 1 hour ago, Renegade7 said: I understand, I don't agree with taking pay increaes off the table, if for any reason DoD does have more control over that then the general direction of obesity in this country (that's completely out of their control) Actually it's not. The military has been doing lots to start interest in the younger people and they focus on teaching them the physical needs to get through boot camp. EDIT ADD: The DoD doesnt have control over militart pay, Congress does. Despite what I usually say, sometimes the military is smart about things. *I'm purposely not commenting on the cyber parts because I don't know that particular sect well. Edited September 10, 2022 by The Almighty Buzz Added to comment 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted September 10, 2022 Share Posted September 10, 2022 Oh, and I forgot to mention that those servicemembers that are needing food stamps probably could have avoided it by listening during any one of the dozens of financial trainings that are available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreaterbuzzette Posted September 10, 2022 Share Posted September 10, 2022 8 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said: Oh, and I forgot to mention that those servicemembers that are needing food stamps probably could have avoided it by listening during any one of the dozens of financial trainings that are available. Was that the class that told you about half way thru your career to marry a rich college graduate chick? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted September 10, 2022 Share Posted September 10, 2022 Just now, thegreaterbuzzette said: Was that the class that told you about half way thru your career to marry a rich college graduate chick? Apparently I didn't pay attention either because you certainly weren't rich. You couldn't even afford to pay me the rent you owed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 Not with money, anyways….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 20 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: Not with money, anyways….. Trust me, there was a reason I let @thegreaterbuzzettestay even though she couldn't pay her rent. In fact, I think there is a whole genre on YouPorn about working for rent. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoCommiesGo Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 On 9/10/2022 at 12:42 PM, PleaseBlitz said: The military has to train its own people, and they are always going to leave once they get good, and so the military is going to have to continue to train its own people. That problem is not solvable in any reasonable way. The DoD's pitch, especially right now, should be something like "don't pay to go to college and learn cyber (and get stuck with crippling debt you won't be able to pay off for 20 yeas), join us and we'll pay you to learn cyber. My little brother is an officer in the army. He went to Norwich and graduated with a degree in cyber security, military recruited him his sophomore year and ended up paying for his last two years. He went to work at Fort Gordon, up until last year. He qualified for the Army JAG program. They are paying for his law school as long as he serves 7 years as a JAG. Blew my mind they are picking up the tab, but it makes sense. I’m sure it would be hard to get a lawyer to enlist directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 52 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said: Trust me, there was a reason I let @thegreaterbuzzettestay even though she couldn't pay her rent. In fact, I think there is a whole genre on YouPorn about working for rent. OMG, is she your step sister? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 56 minutes ago, GoCommiesGo said: My little brother is an officer in the army. He went to Norwich and graduated with a degree in cyber security, military recruited him his sophomore year and ended up paying for his last two years. He went to work at Fort Gordon, up until last year. He qualified for the Army JAG program. They are paying for his law school as long as he serves 7 years as a JAG. Blew my mind they are picking up the tab, but it makes sense. I’m sure it would be hard to get a lawyer to enlist directly. This is consistent with what my neighbors have told me. The 2 Navy Jags went to undergrad, then joined the Navy and got their law school paid for. One of them is now getting an LLM (like a Masters degree for lawyers) at GW and the Navy is paying for that. I looked it up, an LLM at GW costs $86,480. It takes 2 years. The Navy is paying for her tuition, and paying her salary for her to go to school. I don't know what her commitment is, but she's been in long enough that it's a no brainer to stay in for 20 years and get the pension, so she the additional commitment has no downside for her. One of my other neighbors is in the Air Force. She went to the Air Force Academy and then they paid her to go get her PhD in psychology at Kansas because the Air Force needs psychologists for a million different reasons. One of my other neighbors is a fighter pilot in the AF. He has like 4 different advanced degrees. Because he's pretty high up the food chain at this point, they keep sending him to get degrees (or whatever you get from attending the National Defense University near Nats Park) in economics and things like that because he's done flying and blowing **** up and now they want him to do procurement stuff, so he needs training in economics and finance and biz administration etc. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoCommiesGo Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: One of my other neighbors is a fighter pilot in the AF. He has like 4 different advanced degrees. Because he's pretty high up the food chain at this point, they keep sending him to get degrees (or whatever you get from attending the National Defense University near Nats Park) in economics and things like that because he's done flying and blowing **** up and now they want him to do procurement stuff, so he needs training in economics and finance and biz administration etc. I’ve got a friend of mine who graduated from the Naval academy about fifteen years ago, same deal they sent him to the Naval Warfare school for his masters. If you can meet the qualifications and play your cards right the military can set you up long term. Hell, that’s true for the Government in general. I work for a DHS sub agency and they pay for us to go the Warfare College if we meet certain criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 The Navy has a really good program (I assume the other branches have similar) for junior enlisted to go to college. You have to apply and be selected but it paid you your normal salary and your full-time duty was to attend college for 3 years at almost any major university. You had to participate in the school's ROTC program and attend summer classes also, hence the 3 years. You then had to commit to 5 years if I remember correctly *it should be noted that it's not my job to remember anymore so I may be off on the details. That was for a general degree to become a general line officer. Law, nurse, pilot, etc programs had different requirements. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 So, based on my zero experience in the military but knowing a **** ton of people in the military, seems like the pitch for enlistment isn't increasing base pay, it's getting people to enlist and use the educational benefit. That's who you want anyways, the motivated MFers that want to use their brains in some capacity. Plus the pension is crazy. Go in for 20 years, retire at 40, then spend the next 20 years making both the pension and working in the private sector using the skills you picked up in the military, then retire at 60 ****ing set. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 2% x per year served pension under the current BRS isn't really that much. The legacy 2.5% was the one to have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 7 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: That's who you want anyways, the motivated MFers that want to use their brains in some capacity. This 10000%. 10 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: Plus the pension is crazy. Go in for 20 years, retire at 40, then spend the next 20 years making both the pension and working in the private sector using the skills you picked up in the military, then retire at 60 ****ing set. Or plan like I did and just retire at 40 and say **** it. But I have the legacy retirement system. The BRS system has its pros and cons 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 I mean you're talking about 25-30k in pension per year for an E7 who retires at 20 years (if i did the math right). Not exactly rolling in it via pension alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoCommiesGo Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: I mean you're talking about 25-30k in pension per year for an E7 who retires at 20 years (if i did the math right). Not exactly rolling in it via pension alone. If that person plays their cards right they can use veteran preference for a Fed job, buy back their military time and double dip. I know many people who are doing this currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 9 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: I mean you're talking about 25-30k in pension per year for an E7 who retires at 20 years (if i did the math right). Not exactly rolling in it via pension alone. I'm an E-7 who retired at exactly 20 years and my after-tax pay is $2179.41. But throw in my VA disability and I make about $70k a year. But even just retirement is a mortgage payment for most people. And that is a big deal if you get even just a reasonable job to go with it. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) Like Space Ranger? 😁 And yes I agree that it's a nice additional income but it's also not that much as I thought some might be alluding too. Worth mentioning that when you retired you lost the housing allowance, which was probably a nice chunk to forgo (just looked and saw its 2k per month with dependents in Va Beach). Edit...**** me. 3700 BAH where I live for an e7 with dependents. Edited September 12, 2022 by The Evil Genius 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 (edited) Yeah I know someone that got either full or almost full disability with retirement after 25 (I think?) years as an officer and now is making big money as a defense contractor on top of pulling retirement. now I don’t say that to be dismissive of what was given up for that. He missed the bulk of all of his children growing up in their youngest years. I don’t know that he would give a ****, but I personally would prefer to not give that up for what he has. Also I mean you get full disability for a reason. His life isn’t ruined or anything but there are issues he has that I don’t by virtue of him being in the military and I wasn’t. you talk about losing out on talent to private sector pay. So who do you think their doctors are? I got one buddy missing a foot cause the surgeon cut a nerve that caused debilitating pain to the extreme of intense painkillers required for years. The injury was a torn Achilles playing basketball on base state side. I got others I know with chronic issues caused by ****ty diagnosis and bad treatment. I don’t know that I’ve been impressed by anything I’m aware of coming out of military medicine except the over the top exceptional **** I watched at Walter Reid - and you gotta get ****ed up first pretty bad to get there. Edited September 12, 2022 by tshile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 23 minutes ago, tshile said: Also I mean you get full disability for a reason. His life isn’t ruined or anything but there are issues he has that I don’t by virtue of him being in the military and I wasn’t. Yea I get 100% p+t. But you should see me try to go up or down a flight of stairs. Or the mental effects of repeated TBIs. And I still don't have full sensation in my finger tips. 24 minutes ago, tshile said: So who do you think their doctors are? Oh I could fill a whole thread with horror stories from military medicine. 25 minutes ago, tshile said: got one buddy missing a foot cause the surgeon cut a nerve that caused debilitating pain to the extreme of intense painkillers required for years. The injury was a torn Achilles playing basketball on base state side. I was told I possibly had Lou Gherigs disease. It ended up being a kidney stone. 25 minutes ago, tshile said: got others I know with chronic issues caused by ****ty diagnosis and bad treatment. It took two years to figure out (and they didn't figure it out, I used buzzette's insurance for a specialist) I had broken my collarbone and it was pinching the nerves that go down my arm. 27 minutes ago, tshile said: don’t know that I’ve been impressed by anything I’m aware of coming out of military medicine They missed the fact that I had broken my jaw and just sent me home. The bone got infected (10 on a pain scale) and so they gave me meds for that. Except those interacted with the meds they gave me earlier and I passed out in a food court. 29 minutes ago, tshile said: except the over the top exceptional **** I watched at Walter Reid - and you gotta get ****ed up first pretty bad to get there. One thing I tell any vet, and have had to remind myself of, is to go walk around Walter Reed if they are feeling bad for themselves. It won't take long to see someone that makes you realize it could be worse. @tshile that was meant more to get a laughing emoji at the stupidity of it all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 4 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said: One thing I tell any vet, and have had to remind myself of, is to go walk around Walter Reed if they are feeling bad for themselves. It won't take long to see someone that makes you realize it could be worse. @tshile that was meant more to get a laughing emoji at the stupidity of it all. yeah but it makes me sad. I spent one of my birthdays with the guys at our buddy’s room in Walter Reid slugging bourbon playing cards. when we went out for smoke breaks it felt like drinking in the college dorms again. and the ****ty medical experience isn’t just the military people. it’s the same system their family goes to and the dumb bull**** that goes on is ****ing endless. god help you have a difficult pregnancy or a young child with issues. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 17 hours ago, tshile said: god help you have a difficult pregnancy or a young child with issues. I definitely misread this as "god, I hope you have a difficult pregnancy or a young child with issues." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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