2023 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, method man said:

 Mallory, Strange, Kuntz etc are similar, if not weaker, prospects than most of the young guys they already have. As a Y, I already take Rodgers over Mallory and Turner is similar in level of prospect

 

i was pretty high on Cole Turner before that draft, he made my list of my guys before that draft.  I was very familiar with him.   I actually don't find him that similar to Mallory or Strange.  

 

Maybe some similarity to Kuntz in that they are both tall-lanky with good catch radiuses but Turner isn't nearly the freak ahtlete that Kuntz is.   

 

Of those references, the closest would be IMO Rodgers to Mallory. 

 

TE isn't a one spot position.   12 personel, 13 personnel.   Guys get hurt.  Depth matters.  And I don't get the impression that Logan Thomas is slam dunk returning -- the vibe I get from the beat guys is it depends on what happens in the draft and how Thomas looks during the OTAs.

 

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/kansas-city-chiefs/post/_/id/30132/four-tight-ends-at-once-kansas-city-chiefs-have-more-than-just-travis-kelce

Four tight ends at once? Kansas City Chiefs have more than just Travis Kelce

 

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- On one of his two touchdown passes during the Kansas City Chiefs' final preseason game, Patrick Mahomes could have thrown the ball to any of four tight ends -- all on the field at once on that one given play. He eventually opted for Blake Bell, resulting in a 5-yard score.

The Chiefs retained all four tight ends -- Bell, Travis Kelce, Noah Gray and Jody Fortson -- after their final cuts. They may not use them much together on the same play, but they didn't keep four to sit them on the bench either. The days of additional tight ends besides Kelce, once in vogue with the Chiefs, appear to be back.

"I'm not so sure since we've been here that we've had four guys like that," coach Andy Reid said. "They're all good football players, so we threw them out there and gave them a shot. They were all excited and looked all right."

The three tight ends other than Kelce are new to the Chiefs. Bell played for them in 2019, but left last season for the Dallas Cowboys before returning this year. Gray is a fifth-round draft pick and Fortson a former training camp and practice squad wide receiver who put on some weight, became a tight end and earned a roster spot in camp.

"We were already dangerous [at tight end] before I was activated," Fortson said. "I think we just got a little bit more dangerous, to be honest with you. I believe in my talents and obviously they do as well because I'm on the active roster now, but it gives us the opportunity to form a lot of looks and create so many mismatches.

 

"It's going to be fun. It's fun to be a part of it. I wish I was in the stands to see it: 'Wow, they've got four guys out there!" I'm a part of it so it's dope."

Gray is the first tight end drafted by the Chiefs since 2015. They've used him in a manner similar to Kelce in that he lined up during training camp in a variety of spots, including tight end.

The Chiefs appear deeper behind Kelce at tight end than they've been since he became the starter in 2014. General manager Brett Veach said he fielded a few calls from his counterparts with other teams asking about the availability of one of the backups in trade. Veach said that made it clear they couldn't expect either Gray or Fortson to pass through waivers if they cut one of them and tried to put him on the practice squad.

The Chiefs used a lot of multiple tight end formations during Reid's early seasons. From 2014 through 2017, they were in the NFL's top 10 every season in number of plays out with three tight end personnel groupings. They led the league in that category in 2016.

14 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

If they draft Laporta, Musgrave or any other TE in the first 3 rounds, Thomas is a goner. 

 

Agree.  He might be a goner if they take one lower too.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

SIP, I like that you have continued discuss all differrent types of TE's including Strange. He can kind of do it all. Another really not discussed and not on my tops list but could fall into this window is Latu

[method man]

17 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

They like Bates blocking, maybe they look at a Mallory or Kuntz as having way more potential than a Rodgers or Turner. If they go that route Thomas may stick for the year also

 

Kuntz has more potential given his measurables but he seems to be so far away and is an underachiever. All the beat guys imply they are really high on Rodgers and Paulsen says that they think that Turner has some of the best hands they have ever seen for a TE

[DWinzit]

1 minute ago, method man said:

 

Kuntz has more potential given his measurables but he seems to be so far away and is an underachiever. All the beat guys imply they are really high on Rodgers and Paulsen says that they think that Turner has some of the best hands they have ever seen for a TE

For me, I too was very high on Turner through the draft process. Was exposed a lot to him while eyeing Carson Strong and in the Senior Bowl. They like them but upgrades are a way of life. There area lot of talented TE's in this draft that may be stronger than these guys in the 5th or 6th round. never know

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, DWinzit said:

Your point on Forsyth is important. He is good and can play G and they could plan and making multiple trade backs. That might lead us with more 4th and 5th rounder. I so, he could be a target, If I recall he was one of the early 30 players they brought in

Had a feeling we'd be hearing from you when I saw SIPs Smith post 

Can I take it that you a big fan of Drew Sanders too?

I rank them Sanders>Simpson>Campbell, so yes. I'd be super stoked with Sanders if we trade to the back of the first. I'd think about taking him at 16, too depending on how the draft went.

 

Then watch everyone bash the pick next year and then say they knew he'd be great in two years when we have the best LBer duo in the league.. 

 

Nolan Smith should be a top 15 pick. The other three should be available closer to the second round.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Koolblue13

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

Heck. Trade back from #16 and also up from #47. 
 

Maybe the ideal scenario is to finish up with a couple of late first round selections.

Kincaid looks outstanding to me.

We did that last year with 120 and 189 to 2 picks around the 140's I think. Something like that.

[DWinzit]

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I rank them Sanders>Simpson>Campbell, so yes. I'd be super stoked with Sanders if we trade to the back of the first. I'd think about taking him at 16, too depending on how the draft went.

 

Then watch everyone bash the pick next year and then say they knew he'd be great in two years when we have the best LBer duo in the league.. 

I figured lol.

While he doesn't possess the speed to rush you desire, Campbell is my top guys. He is actually my favorite player in the draft. He teamed up with Davis would allow Davis much more freedom to rush and blitz.

 

I like Simpson next over Sanders but would want to dig into what caused some regression last year. 

 

While I know you aren't as high on him, I do like Pace a lot

[Warhead36]

Reg. our TEs: we need to upgrade that position bad. We were probably league worst at TE production last year. Thomas is completely washed and should be cut regardless of what we do in the draft. Bates is a blocker but that's it. I don't think Turner lived up to the off season hype at all. Rogers looked good at times but is still raw. We absolutely need to find someone, ideally in the 3rd round which seems to be the money round for NFL TEs. 

 

I don't really have any preferred targets. Just hope someone good is available in the 3rd. Maybe Laporta. 

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I figured lol.

While he doesn't possess the speed to rush you desire, Campbell is my top guys. He is actually my favorite player in the draft. He teamed up with Davis would allow Davis much more freedom to rush and blitz.

 

I like Simpson next over Sanders but would want to dig into what caused some regression last year. 

 

While I know you aren't as high on him, I do like Pace a lot

I don't hate Pace. I think he'd be a great pick on day 3. I'd take Herbig with our 3rd and be happy, depending on how the draft went. If we add another day 2 pick and got Herbig with our second 3rd I'd be ecstatic. Pace in the 4rth would be great.

 

Sanders in his first year playing off ball did pretty good. Lots of room for growth. Simpson regressed. Campbell is being billed around here like the next Urlacer and I see him more of a slightly more athletic, bigger Holcomb. He's good and I like him a lot in the second.

 

Nolan Smith goes in the Parsons, Reddick class. Him rushing around our line would be nasty.

[DWinzit]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't hate Pace. I think he'd be a great pick on day 3. I'd take Herbig with our 3rd and be happy, depending on how the draft went. If we add another day 2 pick and got Herbig with our second 3rd I'd be ecstatic. Pace in the 4rth would be great.

 

Sanders in his first year playing off ball did pretty good. Lots of room for growth. Simpson regressed. Campbell is being billed around here like the next Urlacer and I see him more of a slightly more athletic, bigger Holcomb. He's good and I like him a lot in the second.

 

Nolan Smith goes in the Parsons, Reddick class. Him rushing around our line would be nasty.

Well I am pretty certain I am the one "billing" Campbell   He is not Urlacher but him behind our line and with Davis's mobility....killer!!!

 

I am a big fan of Smith, he has a different level of game than the other prospects 

 

As we had discussed some time ago, I am not a big Herbig fan.

 

I think Pace is a steal in the 4th round, best instincts of anyone in this draft

[JamesMadisonSkins]

52 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We did that last year with 120 and 189 to 2 picks around the 140's I think. Something like that.

 

The closest I think we could get to that is by going back to #29 with the Saints and getting pick #40 as well. To make it even we might need to throw in our 5th at #150. 

 

That would give us #29, #40, #47 and #97. I don't know if I would be up for moving back to the late 1st because I really like the idea of having 3 picks in that range. But if we traded, say, #40 and #97 to move up to the late 1st, we could always take #47 and try to turn that into a pair of 3rds. Drafting 1/1/3/3/4 would be cool. But I think I'd prefer to go 1/2/2/3/4 ...

 

Or better yet, getting #29 and #40, then turning #47 into a late 2nd and late 3rd. Giving us 1/2/2/3/3/4 ... I really like the DBs/LBs/TEs/IOLs that fall in that late 2nd-late 3rd range. Having 2/3/3/4 would be nice after a late 1 and early 2 

Edited April 21, 2023 by JamesMadisonSkins

[Going Commando]

19 hours ago, e16bball said:

I don’t see him as a top 10 OT. But I think he’s a solid, pretty high-floor guy to take in the middle of the 1st. I’d rather move down and target Harrison/Jones in the late 20s, in order to pick up ammo to bring in more pick volume. But if they’re stuck at 16, I’d be at peace with Wright there.

 

Good post, I think you make you a good case.  Maybe I was too harsh on Darnell when I went back and watched the cut ups.  I watched the game in real time and remembered seeing Bresee pop, but once I saw the breakdown with more nuance on it, I remember being kind of shocked at some of the wins Bresee got, and it negatively colored my take on Darnell.  Plays where Bresee was really just stacking Darnell and shucking him, and Darnell was trying to use his hand technique to get back into the rep and didn't have the strength to do it.

 

I didn't like to see it because I think Bresee is much more in line with the kind of player/athlete Darnell is going to face in the NFL than he typically faced.  I don't want to see him trying to jump or snatch dudes like Jonathen Allen or TJ Watt, that's not going to go well for him.  But I'm a big Bresee fan, and maybe the dude is just that good. 

 

I also think not having Hooker in that game is a mitigating factor for Darnell.  Hard to block for a new QB, and Hooker was creative and decisive.  Stood tall when he needed to, broke the pocket when he needed to.  If you're used to blocking guys for 2 seconds and being able to play super aggressive, it's an adjustment when you've got a different guy back there.

 

That said, I'm not going to be pleased with Darnell at 16 if that's what it comes down to.  I can buy the move better if he kicks inside to guard, although it'd feel like why not Skoronski at that point?  I just don't feel comfortable enough with the consistency of his pass pro to take him at 16, and I don't think he's got unicorn traits to make me forgive issues and chase upside.  I just don't think he's better than Harrison or Jones.  But also, I don't think he's better than guys like Mayer/JSN/Myles Murphy/Bryan Bresee/Jahmyr Gibbs/Calijah Kancey/Bijan Robinson, etc. many of whom should still be there at 16.  I think he would be too far removed from BPA for me at 16.  I think I would rather pass on OT in the first, pick BPA regardless of position, and then hope that Dawand or Anton are still there at 47 than pick Darnell at 16.

 

If we do pick him, I recognize the positions of all of these guys would be sorted out in training camp.  But I would be rooting for him to stay at RT and for Wylie to go back to playing guard.  The reactive athleticism/mirror speed that Darnell has is too good not to at least take a stab at keeping him at RT.

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

The closest I think we could get to that is by going back to #29 with the Saints and getting pick #40 as well. To make it even we might need to throw in our 5th at #150. 

 

That would give us #29, #40, #47 and #97. I don't know if I would be up for moving back to the late 1st because I really like the idea of having 3 picks in that range. But if we traded, say, #40 and #97 to move up to the late 1st, we could always take #47 and try to turn that into a pair of 3rds. Drafting 1/1/3/3/4 would be cool. But I think I'd prefer to go 1/2/2/3/4 ...

 

Or better yet, getting #29 and #40, then turning #47 into a late 2nd and late 3rd. Giving us 1/2/2/3/3/4 ... I really like the DBs/LBs/TEs/IOLs that fall in that late 2nd-late 3rd range. Having 2/3/3/4 would be nice after a late 1 and early 2 

There is a lot of room to play around, but the one thing is that we need to read and ride the runs. The top tackles may go early. If they go late, that means DB run starts early. 

 

I'm guessing that the top 2 or 3 DBs go very early, then the OTs. If the other DBs start to go earlier, then a DB run could push the OTs down the road. Who knows.

 

Between rounds 2/3/4 that's where the bulk of the DBs,IOL, LBer, TEs we need are going to live. Speed back, QB, DL will be there at the end of day 3. It's why I think OT is so important day 1 for us.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

If Paris Johnson or Broderick Jones fall to #16, I would assume they'd be the pick. But I also think this FO probably feels strongly about the OL in a way that the draft media doesn't. Olave falling to #12 last year and us trading off of him when I think many of us thought he was a sure-fire pick there is an example. We really like Dotson, and probably others, and felt okay trading back and getting draft capital. I wonder if something similar happens on the OL. If Johnson or Jones is there at #16, I could see us trading back to get some additional draft capital and taking someone we like a bit later. If we don't see a huge difference between Johnson/Jones and say, Wright or Harrison, it wouldn't shock me if we traded off the pick with one of them on the board. I guess we'll see!

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, method man said:

 

Kuntz has more potential given his measurables but he seems to be so far away and is an underachiever. All the beat guys imply they are really high on Rodgers and Paulsen says that they think that Turner has some of the best hands they have ever seen for a TE

 

 

Sure, I've listened to Paulsen talk about the TEs, I've talked about it here plenty.   But his point mainly is about athletic traits at least when it comes to Rogers.  I don't think we can really say from our couch that he's apples to apples to any player in this draft considering he didn't play TE in college and only had 5 catches last year so there isn't a lot to judge him on.  He's 25 and will be 26 this season so he's not uber young 

 

Cole Turner was one of my favs in the last draft as to mid rounder types.  He's not fast.  4.76 speed.  But as a former WR, he was good at running seam routes, getting open and had really good hands -- catch radius- red zone target.  Willing blocker but meh at it.

 

We tend to lose our TEs early, sometimes in camp.  It's a position where the depth is just about always tested.  

 

Paulsen is a bit all over the place.  On one count he likes our young TEs because of their upside.  But on the other hand, he didn't seem opposed to drafting one and thinks there are a whole bunch of them in this draft that he likes where he doesn't love the idea of taking one early.  He's a big fan of Whyle. He is someone I like too -- he's also like Strange by that he is a dude who gets open quickly in the flat, has good hands and is a decent blocker IMO.

 

It's been awhile but I got watch Latu again.   He's sort of my forgotten man.   Schoonmaker I also need to watch again -- I was intrigued by Shoonmaker and he killed the combine but I'd be lying if I said I could define his game right now.  I watched him months ago but forgot what I saw outside of recalling I overall liked him as a midrounder type. 

 

Latu I recall not having a strong opinion one way or another but wasn't that high on.  He's another dude I have to watch again because I don't recall him stylistically.

 

I got a bunch of players to watch over again for that reason where I can recall impressons but can't recall their game.  Not so much a problem with me at TE -- TE I have strong conviction on most players except for those two.  Not saying in the end, I am right about these guys but I try to get familiar enough where I have a strong opinion on said player that I'll ride with and can discuss the player off the top of my head.

  

Edited April 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I wish we had his measurables -- but I get he's just recovered from his back injury.

 

But his hands are special.   He catches everything and doesn't drop the ball.  Makes contested catches too.  You can line him up at X receiver at times like the Chiefs do with Kelce and create mismatches like they do.

Have seen it suggested he has the best hands in the draft. Drafting that person 2 years running sure sounds tempting.

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

If Paris Johnson or Broderick Jones fall to #16, I would assume they'd be the pick. But I also think this FO probably feels strongly about the OL in a way that the draft media doesn't. Olave falling to #12 last year and us trading off of him when I think many of us thought he was a sure-fire pick there is an example. We really like Dotson, and probably others, and felt okay trading back and getting draft capital. I wonder if something similar happens on the OL. If Johnson or Jones is there at #16, I could see us trading back to get some additional draft capital and taking someone we like a bit later. If we don't see a huge difference between Johnson/Jones and say, Wright or Harrison, it wouldn't shock me if we traded off the pick with one of them on the board. I guess we'll see!

 

I don't think too many here thought Olave was the sure fire pick at 11.  It was if Drake London lands at 11 they'd take him and not trade down.  Beat guys have said since that was indeed what they were thinking. 

 

We knew that they liked Olave and found out later that they indeed did like him but they had 5 players that they wanted in the range of their pick and were willing to trade down if they were still on the board.  A lot of noise at this time last year that they wanted to trade down.  And yes Dotson as an option was discussed.  Keim would throw Dotson's name around in the mix.  

 

Rivera ironically referenced 5 players yesterday.  He talked about it in the context of thinking of that after pick 11 is made as to how the draft is unfolding.  And the idea of trading down was referenced multiple times in that press conference.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[mhd24]

20 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Good post, I think you make you a good case.  Maybe I was too harsh on Darnell when I went back and watched the cut ups.  I watched the game in real time and remembered seeing Bresee pop, but once I saw the breakdown with more nuance on it, I remember being kind of shocked at some of the wins Bresee got, and it negatively colored my take on Darnell.  Plays where Bresee was really just stacking Darnell and shucking him, and Darnell was trying to use his hand technique to get back into the rep and didn't have the strength to do it.

 

I didn't like to see it because I think Bresee is much more in line with the kind of player/athlete Darnell is going to face in the NFL than he typically faced.  I don't want to see him trying to jump or snatch dudes like Jonathen Allen or TJ Watt, that's not going to go well for him.  But I'm a big Bresee fan, and maybe the dude is just that good. 

 

I also think not having Hooker in that game is a mitigating factor for Darnell.  Hard to block for a new QB, and Hooker was creative and decisive.  Stood tall when he needed to, broke the pocket when he needed to.  If you're used to blocking guys for 2 seconds and being able to play super aggressive, it's an adjustment when you've got a different guy back there.

 

That said, I'm not going to be pleased with Darnell at 16 if that's what it comes down to.  I can buy the move better if he kicks inside to guard, although it'd feel like why not Skoronski at that point?  I just don't feel comfortable enough with the consistency of his pass pro to take him at 16, and I don't think he's got unicorn traits to make me forgive issues and chase upside.  I just don't think he's better than Harrison or Jones.  But also, I don't think he's better than guys like Mayer/JSN/Myles Murphy/Bryan Bresee/Jahmyr Gibbs/Calijah Kancey/Bijan Robinson, etc. many of whom should still be there at 16.  I think he would be too far removed from BPA for me at 16.  I think I would rather pass on OT in the first, pick BPA regardless of position, and then hope that Dawand or Anton are still there at 47 than pick Darnell at 16.

 

If we do pick him, I recognize the positions of all of these guys would be sorted out in training camp.  But I would be rooting for him to stay at RT and for Wylie to go back to playing guard.  The reactive athleticism/mirror speed that Darnell has is too good not to at least take a stab at keeping him at RT.

 

Since NYJ wants to win now, I figure Wright is going 13 to them.  They need a RT desperately.  He's readier to play than B. Jones is.  Skoronski doesn't figure in their plans since they have big-money in Tomlinson & AVT.  

[JamesMadisonSkins]

I wonder if Skoronski is a player we have as someone we wouldn't trade off of. He can play LG or RT, which we know this staff is super high on. I wonder if he goes at #15 to the Packers if he slides that far. But that is a pick I think I would be cool with since he could step in at multiple spots. 

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Have seen it suggested he has the best hands in the draft. Drafting that person 2 years running sure sounds tempting.

 

I got draft man crushes (too many ) on so many TEs and DEs in this draft -- that if they take someone at that spot anywhere from round 1 through round 4, the odds are I'll be very happy. 

 

As for TEs, Kincaid is definitely one of my many TE draft crushes.   For a TE especially you got to be able to make catches in traffic and having a TE who has glue for hands is an asset.  He gets open so seamlessly in the flat, Jordan Reed style, that IMO he's a perfect sort of safety outlet for a QB.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

McGinn in his QB rankings.

 

At this spot, the scouts nailed it since they had the exact same ranking of my QBs after the top 5. 

 

That is, Haener then Tune than Thompson-Robinson.  My only difference with them is I like Jaren Hall more than they do albeit I do indeed see Hall as a backup but IMO he could be a decent back up IMO.

 

 

 

[Est.1974]

None of the QBs that got a low score became good players....quite the hammer blow.

[DWinzit]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

McGinn in his QB rankings.

 

At this spot, the scouts nailed it since they had the exact same ranking of my QBs after the top 5. 

 

That is, Haener then Tune than Thompson-Robinson.  My only difference with them is I like Jaren Hall more than they do albeit I do indeed see Hall as a backup but IMO he could be a decent back up IMO.

 

 

 

Ouch for Hooker, double ouch on Stroud

 

I too like Haener and Tune later on day 3. I am not shocked by their scores

Edited April 21, 2023 by DWinzit

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

None of the QBs that got a low score became good players....quite the hammer blow.

 

Some think Stroud will be the surprise dropper in the draft for this and other reasons.  He didn't just do bad, he bombed that test. 

[Est.1974]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Some think Stroud will be the surprise dropper in the draft for this and other reasons.  He didn't just do bad, he bombed that test. 

Yep. I wonder if the Texans are looking at Lance via trade.