The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2 and so begins the Handsome Harem for Hartman

[mistertim]

9 hours ago, Peregrine said:

I feel like this is definitely overblown right now.  The fundamental problem with this team isnt QB, its that the defense is awful.  If we went and got a top QB, the defense would still be awful, and we would simply improve to missing the playoffs, instead of badly missing the playoffs.

 

A top QB doesnt fix the problem of paying out 3 huge contracts to secondary players who are your worst performers on the team.  Of course having a top QB would be a huge deal, but until this team gets to the point it can actually compete year in and year out having a top QB would just help us tread water.  We still wouldnt do anything.

 

We've had really good defenses in the past and still were mediocre because we never had a top QB. Nowadays defenses don't win championships anymore, outside of incredibly rare one-offs like Denver. This isn't the 80s. Its a passing and QB driven league. The teams that are perennial contenders who have a shot to go all the way in any given year are the ones with top QBs.

 

Another problem with this line of thinking is that even if you "fix" the defense and it becomes dominant, you only have a very short window of defensive dominance to win a SB with some rando vet QB. Truly elite defenses are almost impossible to keep together for more than a few years.

 

But if you manage to find an elite QB then you immediately have about a 10-15 year window where you can build up around him and get your defense better. That's the game plan that pretty much all teams nowadays are using. Find your QB first and other things will figure themselves out over time.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[Bloodytusk]

Ideally have really good draft position and if we really like someone in the draft take them. If not trade back and get some picks we can use to move up next year or in the future.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

We've had really good defenses in the past and still were mediocre because we never had a top QB. Nowadays defenses don't win championships anymore, outside of incredibly rare one-offs like Denver. This isn't the 80s. Its a passing and QB driven league. The teams that are perennial contenders who have a shot to go all the way in any given year are the ones with top QBs.

 

Another problem with this line of thinking is that even if you "fix" the defense and it becomes dominant, you only have a very short window of defensive dominance to win a SB with some rando vet QB. Truly elite defenses are almost impossible to keep together for more than a few years.

 

But if you manage to find an elite QB then you immediately have about a 10-15 year window where you can build up around him and get your defense better. That's the game plan that pretty much all teams nowadays are using. Find your QB first and other things will figure themselves out over time.

 

Case in point, Seattle ultimately couldn't afford to keep their star defense together.  Yet Seattle has made the playoffs every year just about. 

 

The reason why GMs-football obsevers harp on the QB being the most important spot in sports is because it is.  Heck I read a funny article years ago from the British about why they think their football > USA football.  The main thesis is in their football (soccer) you have 11 players who are central to the outcome.  In American football, its wildy disproportinately driven by one guy, the QB, and if you don't have that guy you probably aren't very good.

 

 

[HigSkin]

I doubt there is major panic, maybe more frustration but where does this thinking leave the team now given the teams poor performances?

 

Some excerpts from a Silver article back in September -

 

Why Fitz? A Deep Dive Into Ron Rivera's Offseason Strategy

 

In truth, coach Ron Rivera and the organization's other powerbrokers were tempted to bring in a quarterback with more marquee value. They made an inquiry about Stafford, following up with an offer to Detroit. At one point, Rivera believed Washington had an excellent shot at landing Stafford, before the Lions and Rams hastily hammered out their trade terms.

 

Then, heading into the draft, Rivera thought hard about trading up to acquire a quarterback. Ultimately, he balked at the price, instead staying put and selecting Kentucky linebacker Jamin Davis with the 19th overall pick.

 

"We didn't have the pieces in place to say, 'All we have to do is get a quarterback we can win now,'" Rivera explained during training camp as he sat in his luxuriant office at the team's training facility. "I felt that if we could continue to put the rest of the pieces in place, why not do that? We like the guys that we have, and we like where we are, so why not add on a couple of pieces? Then, as we went through it, we felt, Wow -- we're shoring up the defense in free agency and the draft. Wow -- we got a slot receiver and a speed receiver in free agency and drafted a speed receiver. Now let's see if we can get everybody trained, get a veteran quarterback and see what happens."

 

 

There was a point in late January when Rivera believed Stafford might be that veteran quarterback. Washington had made an opening offer that included first- and third-round selections in the 2021 draft, and there was a palpable sense in the building that they could close a deal with the Lions. Then came the Saturday Night Surprise: Rivera, like many others around the league, was stunned when he learned that Detroit had instead agreed to trade Stafford to the Rams for two future first-round picks, a 2021 third-round choice and Jared Goff, with L.A. having sweetened the package in an effort to shed Goff's contract.

 

At various times, Rivera contemplated making a run at Wilson, Watson (before his legal troubles surfaced, including 22 civil lawsuits accusing the Texans quarterback of sexual assault and sexual misconduct) or Rodgers, whose dissatisfaction with the Packers became public hours before the start of the draft. In each case, they concluded that the price was prohibitive. Said Rivera: "Who wouldn't check in with those teams and do their due diligence to see what the cost would be to get a guy of that caliber?"

 

Similarly, while assessing the prospective cost of moving into the draft's top 10, the notion of including a core player in the deal was a non-starter to Rivera.

 

"That would have defeated the whole purpose," Rivera said. "We're trying to build a team, not give up building blocks. Some people wanted way too much draft capital for the next two years. We weren't through building. If we mortgaged our future on a player -- and maybe he isn't the right guy, and maybe we can't afford to keep our core -- it could have really set us back."

 

 

"We've got our fingers crossed that we're doing the right thing," Rivera said. "We do want to try to keep our own; we feel really good about our own. We'd like to get everything else in place and then take a step back and address that position and say, 'Now it's time, guys. Let's roll.'

 

"Next year, if all goes well, it'll be like, 'Man, we've got all the pieces now.' Then we can decide: Is it time to draft a young one, trade for one or, who knows, maybe Fitz has another year in him?"

Edited October 22, 2021 by HigSkin

[Koolblue13]

I wonder if punting in this years draft might be a good idea. 

[Renegade7]

11 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I wonder if punting in this years draft might be a good idea. 

 

That's what I'm leaning towards as well.  I'm not convinced we should sell the farm for Corrall yet, but its early.

[KDawg]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

That's what I'm leaning towards as well.  I'm not convinced we should sell the farm for Corrall yet, but its early.

 

I don't know that we should be punting on the draft... but I think we may be more on the same page here than we were yesterday.

 

I don't see a prospect that is worth trading multiple high end picks for at this point. That can change, for sure. But as of this moment...

 

Which stinks because it further limits our options. 

 

So we have to hope an intriguing prospect falls to us and/or we are picking high enough to get one. 

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

That's what I'm leaning towards as well.  I'm not convinced we should sell the farm for Corrall yet, but its early.

Ideally Pickett, Willis and Ridder start shooting up. Not sure who will be in the senior bowl or whatever, but if some other QB hungry teams want to get in front of us, maybe we can load up for next year.

[mistertim]

12 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Ideally Pickett, Willis and Ridder start shooting up. Not sure who will be in the senior bowl or whatever, but if some other QB hungry teams want to get in front of us, maybe we can load up for next year.

 

Problem there is that each of these guys have some somewhat major question marks. Pickett has played very well this season but, as piddling as it may sound, his tiny hands will worry some teams (though I think he's the cleanest of the 3). Willis has great attributes but he plays against inferior competition and has had 6 INTs in his last 2 games against other small school teams. Ridder has great attributes as well, but his accuracy goes up and down pretty wildly. 

 

I think those questions could keep those guys from rocketing up the board like Wilson did last year. But as we all know, the QB position is crazy valuable so that alone (and the fact that there aren't any clear standout QB prospects) could shoot them up the board. 

[SemperFi Skins]

safest prospects for us need not be huge projects like Ridder/Willis and to some extent, Corral. Though it could be said that this is a somewhat weak QB draft class. It's a defensive draft. Willis may have the highest ceiling if everything went perfect. 

 

Pickett and Strong are probably the most NFL ready but as others have mentioned, Pickett is an older prospect and is coming 'on' in his 4th or 5th year at Pitt. Strong is accurate as hell but stiff. 

 

I stand by Howell and his early play has gotten cleaner as of late. 

 

It's a tough year for us, naturally, to be looking for a QB in the draft.

[Koolblue13]

Imagine this board if we passed on a QB or traded away our 1rst.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Ideally Pickett, Willis and Ridder start shooting up. Not sure who will be in the senior bowl or whatever, but if some other QB hungry teams want to get in front of us, maybe we can load up for next year.

 

Good point about the Senior bowl, often that can become  a useful seperator.   Guys like Kirk, Wilson, Herbert stood out on that front among others.  I think it will help seperate some a draft where you got a bunch of guys that look close in ability

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28563915/justin-herbert-helps-draft-cause-mvp-showing-senior-bowl

Justin Herbert helps draft cause with MVP showing at Senior Bowl

Jan 25, 2020

• 
  MOBILE, Ala. -- Justin Herbert might have had more at stake than any other player at the Senior Bowl this week, with the Oregon quarterback trying to prove he is worthy of a top-10 draft pick.

He responded by being named as both the "Practice Player of the Week" and the MVP of Saturday's game.

[Est.1974]

If Dan is still at the ‘helm’ then we’ll be offering a high profile vet a record breaking average per year deal. 

[Morneblade]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Problem there is that each of these guys have some somewhat major question marks. Pickett has played very well this season but, as piddling as it may sound, his tiny hands will worry some teams (though I think he's the cleanest of the 3). Willis has great attributes but he plays against inferior competition and has had 6 INTs in his last 2 games against other small school teams. Ridder has great attributes as well, but his accuracy goes up and down pretty wildly. 

 

I think those questions could keep those guys from rocketing up the board like Wilson did last year. But as we all know, the QB position is crazy valuable so that alone (and the fact that there aren't any clear standout QB prospects) could shoot them up the board. 

 

What's his hand size? He's the guy I actually think we have a real shot at, and I've liked what I've seen in him. I wonder if he's had drop off in bad weather?

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Imagine this board if we passed on a QB or traded away our 1rst.

 

I mean, if we trade back in a way that we end up with 2 first rounders next year, ill sign off on that.

[El Mexican]

Ah just draft two QBs and see what happens.

The Shanny model worked. The position is so important in this sport that getting two of them justifies the expenditure.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Corral I am sold on.  I think the other guy I am close on is Malik Willis. 

 

He's certainly raw as a passer.  He doesn't have that compact delivery for example that Corral has, there is a labored way for how he looks delivery wise as a passer but he also has moments, especially when throwing on the move.   As a runner though the dude is a freak.  More freakish than Fields or Lance on that front.  He bounces off of defenders like a video game.

 

Seems like some oddly confuse Rivera's offenses for Jay Gruden.  Jay liked his WCO and expressed he wasn't a RO guy, etc. Jay was really into his system.  Somehow some are pigenholing Rivera as the same guy which is IMO beyond silly.  It was Rivera who drafted Newton and modeled Newton's college offense to help him adopt.  If anything he was a borderline pioneer as to adapting an offense to a QB.  So the odd narrative of can we trust Rivera to do this here to me seems just about general distaste for Rivera than about facts. 

 

Rivera himself talked in an interview during the off season about being open to passers of various styles.  IMO the challange won't be that Rivera is some strict WCO guy or name that system who will box in his QB to a specific system.  The challenge IMO is getting the right horse.    I am trying to place where I heard it but if I recall i heard Rivera talk once about preferences with QBs and he did if I recall slip in he prefers mobile QBs.  If so that could lead to someone like like Malik.  He also from what i recall was big on leadership which apparently doomed Haskins for that among other reasons. 

 

 

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/32055582/i-believe-just-did-rise-liberty-malik-willis

Austin said, "Malik's got an unbelievable work ethic. And he takes coaching. He's truly a guy that wants to improve. And he doesn't want to waste a day in that improvement trajectory. ... He comes to work every day, mentally to understand schematically the game and defense, but also fundamentally and making sure that he stays consistent."

 

Willis also tries to spread that same energy with the team in a leadership role.

"He does a really good job of holding other guys accountable," Liberty co-offensive coordinator and wide receivers coach Maurice Harris said. "He gets that if all of the guys around me are on their P's and Q's, so to speak, then we're going to be very, very successful as a team and playing at a high level. So he has a really good, just overall mindset of what it takes not just for him to be successful, but for the team to be successful."

Willis ultimately did offer one thing he liked about 2020. "Winning," said Willis, who led the Flames to a 10-1 record, including a 37-34 victory over Coastal Carolina in the Cure Bowl. "I feel like that's the only thing I liked about last year."

 

Neither head coach nor quarterback will give you an expectation of what Liberty should do on the field this season. Freeze admits he expects big things out of Willis specifically, but the two are on the same page when it comes to everything else. It's just about getting better every day.

But the rest of the football world can't help but gush over Willis' talent and the possibilities over how high he might be selected in the 2021 NFL draft. ESPN's Todd McShay has Willis as his No. 7 overall prospect, while Mel Kiper Jr. has him at No. 15. (He is the No. 3 QB for both analysts, behind only Oklahoma's Spencer Rattler and North Carolina's Sam Howell.)

 

His private quarterback coaches -- Quincy Avery and McEvoy -- are not just ready to prepare him for the NFL, but also the unfair criticism and scrutiny that often comes with being a Black quarterback and potential first-round pick. Avery and McEvoy trained both Trey Lance and Justin Fields, with Fields in particular having disingenuous narratives developing around him in the months and weeks leading up to the draft.

They already know what the analysts are going to say: that his offense isn't pro style enough, or he's not doing things in terms of reading a defense, or he won't or can't go through his progressions.

 

Avery said, "He's doing all the things that every other college quarterback is doing. And he's doing them with less talent around him. And he's putting his guys in a great position to be successful. So saying that, I'm going to be not only frustrated, but I'll know that it's coming out and know that it's false.

"All the things that they want you to be able to do in the NFL in 2021 are things that Malik does really well," he added. "Pushes the ball down the field, can extend plays with his legs, could be a key cog in running quarterback design runs or quarterback RPOs (run-pass options). He can stretch the defense in so many different ways from how he can push the ball down the field or how effortless of a runner he is, like he's going to create a ton of issues for teams in the way that he plays football, and I think that we both know like, that's where the game is going."

 

Freeze knows the NFL is trending that way. He has had multiple NFL teams reach out and schedule Zoom calls with him about the offense Liberty is running and what his favorite RPOs are. When it comes to Willis specifically, Freeze hasn't had those calls with NFL teams yet.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

26 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I mean, if we trade back in a way that we end up with 2 first rounders next year, ill sign off on that.

I'm into it too, but it'll be fun to watch.

 

I'm jealous of the eagles this year and Miami last year.

[Renegade7]

51 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

What's his hand size? He's the guy I actually think we have a real shot at, and I've liked what I've seen in him. I wonder if he's had drop off in bad weather?

 

 

[Koolblue13]

I really feel like Willis is going to be the guy no matter what happens. 

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I really feel like Willis is going to be the guy no matter what happens. 

 

Yeah that's my gut right now.    Rivera had success with Newton -- RO-RPOs.  Some are worried that he doesn't know how to adapt the offense which as I stated I think is silly -- for me if there is any worry about Rivera is he lets his running QBs run too much.  Some say that's what hurt Newton's career, he was ultimately ground down physically from all the hits he took. 

 

I recall Rivera slipping in an interview once he likes mobile dudes but the other thing that hit me is him explaining in detail in an interview this past week about how hard it is for the secondary to defend QBs who are on the move and can extend plays.  

 

I watched a Willis game before watching the highlights.  I'll just say nothing in these highlights were rare in the game I watched.  He played like that over and over again in the game I watched.  He doesn't look RG3 level fast but he looks slippery as heck and can bounce off tackles in a way that's special. 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Hes got RB size too. I'd be really happy with him, especially if we had another developmental QB behind him as insurance. 

[Warhead36]

I'll be happy with any talented QB prospect. I don't care how raw they are if they have elite upside. No more settling for mediocrity. We're gonna suck either way if he doesn't pan out, lets shoot for the moon.

[Skinsinparadise]

I think guy isn't hitting the trade market next year

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I'll be happy with any talented QB prospect. I don't care how raw they are if they have elite upside. No more settling for mediocrity. We're gonna suck either way if he doesn't pan out, lets shoot for the moon.

 

Yeah me, too risk high ceiling-low floor.  Heck some say that was Josh Allen and Herbert and hardly anyone had them as the top QBs in that draft. Part of the reason why I pimp Cooley as a talent evaluator was he had Josh Allen as the top QB in that draft and a lot of other things he nailed including Haskins being a bust.