The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[clskinsfan]

12 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 

you are complaining we didn't take the third QB picked with the second overall pick.  How do you justify us going for Herbert over Tua.  Also Matt Stafford was aging and Daniel Jones hadn't set the world on fire.  How did they make it to 5th and 6th, if this is what people who understand the game do?

Wait. So is Young better than Herbert OR Tua? Is he? My statement said you NEVER pass on a QB at two. You just dont. Because someone else is going to take that guy at 5 or 6. You might catch a **** ton of flak for the pick. But it is a QB. And it is worth burning draft picks until you get that position fixed. I would pick first roung QB's for a decade straight until I found one. The modern NFL game demands it. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

Those of us that understand the game have been calling for this for decades. You draft QB's until you hit. You PASS on the "generational" DE that gets skipped at one because he isnt "generational" at all and take Herbert in his place. Even the Bosa's.....Great players. But neither is a QB. And that means everything. People keep saying oh you are wasting draft picks if you keep picking QB's. I say no. You are wasting draft picks until you HIT on your QB. 

But there wasn’t a QB who was going to be picked at 2.  If there was it most likely was Tua.  And I disagree, if you reach for a QB early you end up reaching for a guy like Mitch and they bust at a higher rate.  
 

I agree you keep taking shots at it, but if you reach for a guy to get a guy you end up like the bears.

 

And for what it’s worth, the Red Commander team skins drafted Ramsey, JC, Griffin (tack on 2 additional firsts abs a second for that honor) and Haskins in the first, not to mention Cousins in the 4th. They also traded for Alec Smith, McNabb and Wentz, and signed Fitzy in FA.  It’s not like they haven’t tried.  
 

But often times, 

 

[clskinsfan]

5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

But there wasn’t a QB who was going to be picked at 2.  If there was it most likely was Tua.  And I disagree, if you reach for a QB early you end up reaching for a guy like Mitch and they bust at a higher rate.  
 

I agree you keep taking shots at it, but if you reach for a guy to get a guy you end up like the bears.

 

And for what it’s worth, the Red Commander team skins drafted Ramsey, JC, Griffin (tack on 2 additional firsts abs a second for that honor) and Haskins in the first, not to mention Cousins in the 4th. They also traded for Alec Smith, McNabb and Wentz, and signed Fitzy in FA.  It’s not like they haven’t tried.  
 

But often times, 

 

There wasnt? Was Tua or Herbert worth the pick at 2? That is my point. The position itself demands it. You dont pick DE's that COULD POSSIBLY be a generational talent over QB's who could. It is about the value of the position. A Pro Bowl QB is worth your entire defense in the modern NFL. It took me many years to realize this. You could win in the 70's 80;s and 90's without a franchise QB. You cannot anymore because of the modern rules of football. 

[MrJL]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

But there wasn’t a QB who was going to be picked at 2.  If there was it most likely was Tua.  And I disagree, if you reach for a QB early you end up reaching for a guy like Mitch and they bust at a higher rate.  
 

I agree you keep taking shots at it, but if you reach for a guy to get a guy you end up like the bears.

 

And for what it’s worth, the Red Commander team skins drafted Ramsey, JC, Griffin (tack on 2 additional firsts abs a second for that honor) and Haskins in the first, not to mention Cousins in the 4th. They also traded for Alec Smith, McNabb and Wentz, and signed Fitzy in FA.  It’s not like they haven’t tried.  
 

But often times, 

 

 

if we're tacking on stuff Campbell cost us a 2005 3rd and a  2006 first and 4th.  He was our second first rounder of that year.  Course Ramsey got us stuff cause he was a trade down.  And if you're going far enough back to include Ramsey then also include trading for Brunell

Just now, clskinsfan said:

There wasnt? Was Tua or Herbert worth the pick at 2? That is my point. The position itself demands it. You dont pick DE's that COULD POSSIBLY be a generational talent over QB's who could. It is about the value of the position. A Pro Bowl QB is worth your entire defense in the modern NFL. It took me many years to realize this. You could win in the 70's 80;s and 90's without a franchise QB. You cannot anymore because of the modern rules of football. 

 

Tua had once been considered the likely top pick, that didn't work out and no one gave us or the Lions or the Giants a blow away offer to move up into spots to take them.  So the people in the know, the NFL front office people said no no QB was worth it at that position

[clskinsfan]

6 minutes ago, MrJL said:

So the people in the know, the NFL front office people said no no QB was worth it at that position

Exactly

[MrJL]

2 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Exactly

 

yeah, which makes us not doing it more likely to be the right call

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

There wasnt? Was Tua or Herbert worth the pick at 2? That is my point. The position itself demands it. You dont pick DE's that COULD POSSIBLY be a generational talent over QB's who could. It is about the value of the position. A Pro Bowl QB is worth your entire defense in the modern NFL. It took me many years to realize this. You could win in the 70's 80;s and 90's without a franchise QB. You cannot anymore because of the modern rules of football. 

Herbert wasn’t in any conversation I heard about #2, and not from the draftniks, but from the reporting.

 

Tua had such a significant injury concern he worked his way from “tank from Tua” basically out of the 4.  
 

5 and 6 isn’t bad, but 2 other guys went before Tua and after Young.  If Tua was that hot, somebody moves up to get him at 3, at a minimum. 

[NickyJ]

It's a shame that so many teams overpay their GMs and scouts when they could just have clskinsfan sitting in the draft room every year looking at the QB board and yelling "DRAFT HIM" for every single QB still on the board.

[clskinsfan]

9 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

It's a shame that so many teams overpay their GMs and scouts when they could just have clskinsfan sitting in the draft room every year looking at the QB board and yelling "DRAFT HIM" for every single QB still on the board.

And you know what clskinsfan would find a franchise a QB and a chance at success while those GM's and Scouts end up gone and picked up by another team because their head coach got canned in year 3 of a 5 year contract. I am not trying to say I am better than any of them at picking out a single player at any position. I am just saying draft ****ing QB's until you hit one. The best teams in this league do it. They just do. And I am really not trying to get worked up on Christmas day for this clownshow if a franchise. So I will bow out. Love you poor pathetic ****s that love DC football like me and SUFFER because of it. Merry Christmas ya'll. I'm out. 

[Warhead36]

What complicates matters is we had just taken Haskins the year before with a first rounder. Its really hard to justify taking QBs in the 1st round in back to back drafts. And people forget, Haskins had a couple nice games to end the season and reports from off season work outs was that he was working his butt off and was in incredible shape. Covid disallowing OTAs/minicamps really hurt Rivera there, had he been able to see Haskins in person I think he may have ended up going after a QB but at that point in time, it just didn't make sense to take a QB at 2. Now if we had the number ONE pick and Joey Burrow is sitting there? That's a completely different discussion. But Tua was coming off a major injury and there were questions if he was any good or was it the team around him at Alabama(and those questions are going to resurface with his recent losing skid)and NOBODY had Herbert being any good, most people thought he was raw and a pure upside pick. 

 

If we hadn't taken Haskins in 2019, then yes 100% absolutely we should have taken a QB in 2020, But there were a bunch of circumstances in play that need to actually be considered. Yes hindsight is 20/20 and I like everyone else think long and hard all the time about where this team would be if we had Herbert right now at QB(I'm not sold on Tua at all, he's regressed hard the last month and he's not gonna have Tyreek Hill to bail him out here).

[NickyJ]

Drafting a new QB each and every year until you land a QB who's awesome out of the box is how the Bills could have been famous for trading Josh Allen before he became a franchise QB.

[zCommander]

4 hours ago, KDawg said:

No, I am not. I give him credit for making Turner change the plan. 
 

But deflection isn’t a win. Answer the question please.

 

Scott changed his plan because Taylor has different style of play and limitations too. Taylor didn't make him do anything. If Turner wanted he could have easily gone to Howell so he could still call plays that would stretch the field like he wanted to do so with Wentz. Again, that is on Scott and not on Taylor. 

 

Deflection? Where was that? A poster said Wentz has a SB ring, meaning he was the QB who got them the SB ring. I said Foles gets credit for the SB win. No where did I say Wentz didnt do **** up to that point. You can spin it anyway you like. Cool beans coach. 

[clskinsfan]

12 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Drafting a new QB each and every year until you land a QB who's awesome out of the box is how the Bills could have been famous for trading Josh Allen before he became a franchise QB.

Now talk to me about Philly, Dallas, KC, LAC, Miami and Jacksonville and a long list of others Who all hit their guy. Some higher in the draft But all took chances on the pick. Should not have even responded to this. But whatever.

[zCommander]

21 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Drafting a new QB each and every year until you land a QB who's awesome out of the box is how the Bills could have been famous for trading Josh Allen before he became a franchise QB.

 

Which QB have we selected in the 1st round that we have traded instead of trying to see what they can do 3-4 years later?

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by zCommander

[NickyJ]

28 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Which QB have we selected in the 1st round that we have traded instead of trying to see what they can do 3-4 years later?

31 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Now talk to me about Philly, Dallas, KC, LAC, Miami and Jacksonville and a long list of others Who all hit their guy. Some higher in the draft But all took chances on the pick. Should not have even responded to this. But whatever.

Lmao. Philly, Dallas, KC, LAC, Miami and Jacksonville didn't do back to back 1st round QB draft picks like you're advocating lol. In fact, there's only one team that has in recent history. Arizona. The returns are mixed, pending whether video games get in the way during their QB's rehab.

 

You both seem to be taking this as a "There's only one way to get a franchise QB" sort of problem. It's either flipping QBs like tarot cards, or it's sitting on a QB for half a decade no matter how much he sucks.

 

You're wrong. There isn't a right way to do it. You get lucky or you don't. Maybe your luck comes a year down the line. Maybe 2 years. Maybe never. The great thing about being an armchair GM is that you'll never get fired for being wrong too many times. Professionals who have to build a team while the rest of the players are young and cheap don't have that benefit.

 

Or maybe I'm wrong and you guys are savants that should submit your forum posts as resumes to league offices. You should try that, I'm curious how that will turn out.

Edited December 26, 2022 by NickyJ

[TheBlueIndian]

Hurts and Prescott could  hardly be considered taking a risk based on draft position. One could make the argument that by being drafted later by teams that used their premium draft picks building their respective teams infrastructure, it was easier for them to succeed. The parts were already in place for sustainable success.  You could loose patience and knee jerk react ala Denver (bullet dodged) or the Rams (one and done) but I like what Ron and company have done remaking the roster. When they get their long term solution at QB they will be ready to roll for more than just now and be able to backfill the roster with young talent when we loose guys to free agency. 

[clskinsfan]

19 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Lmao. Philly, Dallas, KC, LAC, Miami and Jacksonville didn't do back to back 1st round QB draft picks

No they ALL took multiple QB's in drafts and hit. I never said 1st rounders. I said QB's IN EVERY draft until you hit. 

10 minutes ago, TheBlueIndian said:

Hurts and Prescott could  hardly be considered taking a risk

Really? Thats exactly what I am saying. Burn picks until you hit. 

12 minutes ago, TheBlueIndian said:

The parts were already in place for sustainable success

And I will add. Besides maybe 2 places on the OL this team is stacked enough to win if we had a QB. And that weakness at OL gets hidden real quick with a franchise QB. Herbert and Burrow are about the most sacked QB's int 3eh league. 

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

2 hours ago, NickyJ said:

It's a shame that so many teams overpay their GMs and scouts when they could just have clskinsfan sitting in the draft room every year looking at the QB board and yelling "DRAFT HIM" for every single QB still on the board.

Pick a QB with every pick in the draft if that’s all that matters.  

[zCommander]

41 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Or maybe I'm wrong and you guys are savants that should submit your forum posts as resumes to league offices. You should try that, I'm curious how that will turn out.

 

What I have is lots of management experience (started my own IT business in 2009) and is not scared to make hard decisions. This is why I said back in October of 2021 (it is posted in this thread when the thread was started) to NOT draft a QB in 2022 and to roll with TH and build the lines on both sides. I said this after seeing we were not there yet and needed better players on both sides of the lines. 

 

Now if Ron had done that then we wouldn't have Wentz and had money to further build the OL after losing some good OL players. Then I would have still picked up Howell in the 5th round since I really liked him over the others from the not so great QB class and he was still there for the picking. Howell would have been the backup to TH and would have switched to Howell after TH had started to lose steam or to see if Howell is the present and the future and if not then try to get another QB in the '23rd draft or could have even gone with a vet since now the lines would have been better to protect the QB. 

 

How is that for a savant?

 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by zCommander

[KDawg]

5 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Scott changed his plan because Taylor has different style of play and limitations too. Taylor didn't make him do anything. If Turner wanted he could have easily gone to Howell so he could still call plays that would stretch the field like he wanted to do so with Wentz. Again, that is on Scott and not on Taylor. 

 

Deflection? Where was that? A poster said Wentz has a SB ring, meaning he was the QB who got them the SB ring. I said Foles gets credit for the SB win. No where did I say Wentz didnt do **** up to that point. You can spin it anyway you like. Cool beans coach. 

No spin. You said Foles gets credit for the Eagles ring. So in theory, consistency would say if we won a ring this year (spoiler: we won’t) Heinicke shouldn’t get any credit for the team winning.

 

I think that’s a bad take. The QB who helps guide them there, no matter the % of credit should feel proud and a part of the accomplishment. And be given credit for it.

 

Though I’m also someone that believes rings are won by the organization. So in my world the entire organization deserves credit for a ring. 
 

 

[MrJL]

I hope we game plan these next two weeks like we would if TH were in there.  An improved QB doesn't change the true strengths of the team, but I don't trust Turner enough to understand that.  That and how much the team likes Heinicke were my biggest reasons for preferring him in there

[Skinsinparadise]

16 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I agree, but it's also important to realize how many of the QBs drafted are busts. 

 

They have a good roster which needs a significant OL upgrade and a QB.  I think they will figure out the OL this off-season.  

 

QB is more difficult.  

 

But if they had Dak or Cousins, this team would be akin to the Cowboys or Vikings.  

 

They really need something to break for them.  Ideally, Wentz plays 4 or 5 more games this season and shows he's got his mojo back.  I don't think that's particularly likely, but that's the best case.

 

Absent that, they have to keep trying the veteran market, develop Howell, and keep taking shots in the draft.  

 

Agree.  This roster is built to win now.  But my larger point is keep drafting a QB, even every other year or so if you must until you find that guy.  Heck look at SF as an example.  they kept throwing darts

 

As far as veterans go, I am guessing the options aren't going to be hot.  I am guessing Jimmy G and maybe Carr.  And before someone jumps down my throat, i do care about the price about either.  And both have their flaws, otherwise they wouldn't be available.   they both play mostly above average.  And yeah the non elite QBs, usually don't have a straight line track record, some lemon games in the mix of their play, like Carr's game this weekend.    Carr IMO is a poor man's Kirk, he's more clutch in his career (Kirk is plenty clutch this season), but isn't hot in the red zone, better though than Taylor on that front, Kirk is more consistent.  Jimmy G to me is more akin to Alex Smith.  Makes more plays than Alex but is more INT prone.  His issue IMO is durability.

 

I like Howell but if no veteran I'd double down with another pick in the draft to add to the battle.   Driskell, Beathard, Purdy, Lance.  Keep throwing darts.

 

Edit:

lol, i am unusually behind with the posts on this thread, ctaching up now, didn't realize this is a controversial take.  Have mercy.  

Edited December 26, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

It looked odd at that time but not now clearly,

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

12 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

Those of us that understand the game have been calling for this for decades. You draft QB's until you hit. You PASS on the "generational" DE that gets skipped at one because he isnt "generational" at all and take Herbert in his place. Even the Bosa's.....Great players. But neither is a QB. And that means everything. People keep saying oh you are wasting draft picks if you keep picking QB's. I say no. You are wasting draft picks until you HIT on your QB. 

 

Reason number 10,000 of why Dan needs to go is sometimes politics kicks in as to drafts, so I don't fault them for that draft.  I've argued that draft enough where I don't feel like relitigating that again but i do give them a pass for one one.  But its not just that draft, when the owner picks his pet QB, the coach is typically boxed in to play out that string for at least a little bit.  Dan's feelings about RG3 according to some impinged on Kirk's situation for example and the coaching staff.  Ramsey also according to some was a Dan pick.

 

We get a GM working with a good owner and they come up with a philiosophy working together is a receipe for success IMO.  I referenced here a bunch of times the Eagles approach to the spot, and it came off like Roseman and Lurrie were on the same page, keep swinging, trades, FA, draft, etc until you find that guy.    

Edited December 26, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FLSkinz83]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

No spin. You said Foles gets credit for the Eagles ring. So in theory, consistency would say if we won a ring this year (spoiler: we won’t) Heinicke shouldn’t get any credit for the team winning.

 

I think that’s a bad take. The QB who helps guide them there, no matter the % of credit should feel proud and a part of the accomplishment. And be given credit for it.

 

Though I’m also someone that believes rings are won by the organization. So in my world the entire organization deserves credit for a ring. 
 

 

 

If the question is....Who would be considered the SB winning QB if they go on to win it?   Wentz.     

 

I think the Wentz/Foles question is a bit different, because Wentz got them to 11-2